Self Funded Type Ratings

[carbheaton]

Hi all.
Great thread with some excellent posts. I fear there was a missed opportunity with the poll questions though as I would like to know how many of you disagree with SSTR’s but forked out for one anyway as it was the only way forward. I suspect that it’s quite a lot.

I really don’t know why the notion of SSTR solicits such a negative reaction. Some of ye are going on as if we (yes, I’m a SSTRer and proud) have taken food out of your mouth. I’ve never read such drivel in all my days. What makes you think you have an Allah given right to a type rating? I have a friend in NY who has to pay 40 grand a year for tuition in NYU. I happen to think that 25 grand for a SSTR is peanuts. For me SSTR’s have levelled the playing field in that its given me an opportunity to compete with the old school tie. I now find myself able to compete with people who, in the old days, would have wiped the floor with me because of their connections, or more correctly, their parents connections.

Any suggestion that an SSTR is inferior is really insulting to those of us who have gone down that route. It is outrageous arrogance to suggest that a SSTR student is inferior to any other pilot as we got the same training. If your careful which TRTO you choose then you will get the exact same training as the airline sponsored people.

There are numerous ways to get a right seat in this business and how you choose to do it is your business. If you want to wait for the traditional route of airline sponsorship to return, then I hope you are sitting comfortably. If you want to be proactive and go get it for yourself, then good luck to you. Nobody, but nobody has the right to sit and judge those that choose to do either. Funny that the thread is full of people who are moaning about SSTR’s while those of us who have a SSTR are too busy working to contribute to the discussion.

Keep the number of landings the same as the number of take off’s

[boogie-nicey]

my friends whichever way you go I sincerely wish you the best of luck after all we are in it together. But also try and look at your personal circumstances and see what suits the best, it's a case of the glove that fits the hand.

There are numerous things we can do but equally lets keep a discrete list of things that we won't, can't or are unable to do. This should hopefully create a form of middle ground where our career path lies along. Remember we all leave school to make something of ourselves, some choose school, some armed forces, some self employed, etc. But at the end of the day when they renuite in 20 years time they have all (hopefully) got to the same point but along differing paths.

Whatever route is good for you one thing is for sure hard work but not as an expense but a long term investment it WILL pay back eventually.

Take care ...

[Flypuppy]

The additional cost of a SSTR effectively killed my aspirations to become a commercial pilot. I had started out on the road to fATPL before Sept 11th 2001 and the idea of paying for type rating at that point was something only rich kids did who couldn't a job any other way. In fact prior to 11/9/01 there were heated debates on this very bulletin board about the evils of bonding. These days bonding seems all fair and nice in comparison to SSTR's. I am sure there are many here people who are defending SSTR's as they have either bought them themselves or work for organisations that sell them.

It is a funny industry really, a few years ago airlines would fork out for the cost of an IR, that then became a de facto requirement before anyone could apply for a job, then it was the MCC, now it is the requirement to pay for a Type Rating. It seems to be a constant set of sliding goalposts.

If we compare and contrast pilots with another safety critical industry whose training costs are similar and governed by government legislation, that of train drivers. The cost of training a driver to the point where they a legally allowed to drive a train and earn money for the company is approx. €90,000 (or £60,000 in old money). As far as I am aware there are no preserved railways offering to teach anyone to drive a train and then go off to try and get a job as a train driver with Virgin EWS or Scotrail. One of the main reasons for this is that the unions would never allow it. The first sniff of that happening and the railway workers in the UK would be on strike in a flash. I had this discussion with one of the senior union reps at Scotrail just last week. He was amazed that pilots have to pay so much for their training themselves, and that companies would effectively charge the employee to be able to work. How many UK companies are currently charging for Line Training & Line Time on type?

The argument that paying for the likes of a Bandit type rating is similar to todays climate I cannot accept. £3,000 for a Bandit type rating where, if I remember correctly, part could be funded by government grants similar to career development loans, is not the same sort of financial risk being run today. £25,000+ for 737/A320 type rating with no financial assitance available I cannot see being comparable. The cost of a type rating has risen exponentially with increasing legislation and the expansion of the numbers of investors expecting to reap a return out of the unfortunates who buy the training. The job market declined so far and so quickly that many people offered to prostitute themselves with the notion of gaining experience 'for free' (i.e. working without being paid), and it's now becoming the norm. Unfortunately there will always be those who will have the ability to spend their way into a job, not necessarily because they have talent ability or personality but because they have deeper pockets than others.

I am sure the whory old chestnut of the airline industry doesnt owe you a living will be trotted out, but that is just bollocks. If someone has worked hard and spent waht is to many "normal" people a fortune to get the necessary bit of paper, then it is a cynical and calculating employeer that requires the prospective employee to have to pay further for company specific training, be it a type rating or differences training.

The question is, where is the line in the sand? Pay for moving types within a company? Pay for a command course? A reduction in salary as hours on type are an asset to the pilot?

It really does come as a surprise to me that none of the pilot unions have sought to counter the rise of SSTRs. The practise of self-sponsoring type ratings will not be solved by pressure from those at the bottom of the system, it will only be successfully addressed by those at the top, under economic and union pressure. However, it is a reality and it will take time to eliminate it.

I'm now out of the running for gaining emplyment as a commercial pilot, and the primary reason for that is the rise of the SSTR. I could not justify to myself or my family spending another 25-30k on the possibility of employment.

[20driver]

I think it has all being said, over and over.
flypuppy has one thing right -
"The practise of self-sponsoring type ratings will not be solved by pressure from those at the bottom of the system, it will only be successfully addressed by those at the top, under economic and union pressure."

If it really is the scourge of declining industry T&C's it is up to the existing pilot body to fix it.
Good luck to all in whatever route they choose.
20driver

[AN2 Driver]

Originally Posted by 20driver

I think it has all being said, over and over.
flypuppy has one thing right -
"The practise of self-sponsoring type ratings will not be solved by pressure from those at the bottom of the system, it will only be successfully addressed by those at the top, under economic and union pressure."
If it really is the scourge of declining industry T&C's it is up to the existing pilot body to fix it.
Good luck to all in whatever route they choose.
20driver

And what pressure from the economic side would that be?

The key fact in any free economy is, that if there's too many applicants for a highly desirable job, the conditions go down the whatsit in a big flush.

There's loads of people profiting from this situation, with the possible exception of the pilots naturally, so I don't see economic pressure in the forseeable future.

Only if too many prospective pilots decide that they've had it and go and study something else up to the point where the airlines can't find anyone to occupy row 0AB, that will be the day when things might turn. Only, I have severe doubts that this day is neigh...

Best

AN2 Driver

[On speed on profile]

Flypuppy, Feel for you mate.

Carb heat on, The reason why I am against SSTRs and the reason for starting this thread has been said over an over again. Because SSTRs are an unnecessary expenditure pilots shouldnt have to come up with that for numerous reasons already mentioned, give companies a stronger grip on dictating what we are paid as pilots.

I cant believe so many people here actually want to pay for a SSTR let alone thinking working together so that we can all be paid more is a bad thing!!

AN2 Driver, there is a problem with your last statement. Too many pilots are being sold the dream by big training organisations and SSTRs without having a clue what they are geting themselves into! They all start training thinking that buying a SSTR is normal and that is the mis-information we need to stop, maybe by getting rid of SSTRs!

I have to ask this again... are there any more ideas out there on what approach I can take to BALPA re: Eliminating SSTRs so we can maintain Ts and Cs? There are many new posters here with obviously different ideas but if you look at the opening post, you will see what I am after. Your ideas!! Thanks,

OSOP

[AN2 Driver]

Originally Posted by On speed on profile

AN2 Driver, there is a problem with your last statement. Too many pilots are being sold the dream by big training organisations and SSTRs without having a clue what they are geting themselves into! They all start training thinking that buying a SSTR is normal and that is the mis-information we need to stop, maybe by getting rid of SSTRs!

OSOP

Doesn't really matter if we talk pilot schools or diet pills. In the end, it always matters what you want to believe, what dreams you have and that is what the marketing folk will paint in bright colours in front of you.

That is why I think fora like this one are important, because here and elsewhere you can hear the truth about such practices and THEN decide for yourself.

Reaching the goal of being a pilot has never been easy, nor do I think it should be, considering the responsibility a commander carries. Yes, I am worried as you are that in many cases getting there today is a question of money rather than talent. But again, that won't change as long as the perception of the job per se is as high as it still is, despite the continous efforts of many participants here to say the opposite. And until that changes, those who dream of a pilots career, which can turn into an obsession in many cases, will go any way they deem will get them there. Which in turn WILL be exploited by those who make their money with this.

Facts of life. I don't really see what a union or others can (or even should) change about that.

AN2 driver.

[Flypuppy]

Reaching the goal of being a pilot has never been easy, nor do I think it should be, considering the responsibility a commander carries.

This is very true, but the ability to become an aircraft commander should be based on ability and performance not just the ability to pay. The filters to take the unsuitable aviators out of the system should be training and personality based not financial. At the end of the day, why should pilots have to subsidise a commercial organisation's training budget? (remember they can reclaim VAT on training - the individual cannot)


In the UK there are probably enough new positions for 75-100 people (to account for expansion or new start ups, in a good year), and movement further up the food chain accounts for probably about 300 places for more experienced bods moving out of night freight/instructing/regional turbo props (again in a good year). So all in all there is probably not much more requirement than 400 jobs per year available for new pilots this equates roughly to the annual output of 1 mid sized flying school. The likes of Ryanair/EZY may have skewed the figures slightly but not by much I would guess. So there is, and as far as I can see, there always has been an over supply of bright shiny newbies but now the rise of the SSTR is allowing those with more financial means the ability to get into a jet who may not be the type of people who will make decent commanders in the future. This just my supposition – based on a conversation I had with a 737 TRI, maybe someone in the training department from an airline can comment with more authority?
As for the money, there is nothing exceptional about pilots' salaries these days. A great many other jobs and professions can and do pay more, and without quite such an enormous investment up front. It is possible to earn over £100k in this country from flying, but the numbers who do are very small! For the majority of commercial pilots in UK, £40-50k is probably the most they'll see, and a great many have to make do on half of that.

I don't really see what a union or others can (or even should) change about that.

An organised and effective union can change the terms and conditions for the better. I may be wrong in this, but I suspect if pilots were represented by say the TGWU instead of BALPA, Dan-Air pilots might not have been given such a shafting back in the early 1990's. It seems from a semi-outsiders point of view that pilots in general are willing to roll over far too easily to management demands and desires, as well as being more than willing to sell their granny and stab their colleagues in the back in order to get that elusive first job. There is nothing inherently wrong with being in a trade union (the Arthur Scargill type of union leader is now history), they can and do look after the rights, terms and conditions of employees, but like any democratic body they are only as good as the members they represent. The people in power need to know what the membership are concerned about and react accordingly.

Again looking at the UK railway industry, after privatisation, many companies tried to implement a number of questionable practices which were countered by the unions. I believe one company (it may have been South West Trains but stand to be corrected) did try to levy some sort of bonding for training but the reaction of the unions was total outrage and the idea was dropped rapidly. The unions point of view was that bonding would hamper their members ability to find work with other employers…

I suspect that in a couple of years this discussion will become superfluous anyway with the introduction of the Multi-Pilot Licence, which will effectively kill the current way of commercial pilot training.

[carbheaton]

Flypuppy,

I really respect your point of view but don’t you see that what you perceive as having killed off your aspirations to become a commercial pilot, actually gave life to the careers of many others who otherwise would not get the chance. SSTR’s are not compulsory and many airlines are hiring hundreds of people a year through the traditional route. I happen to think that any business has the right to expect its prospective employees to be up to a certain standard before they hire them, or before the employee expects to be hired. I am absolutely amazed that we think just because we do a multi IR we should expect to be taken on by a benevolent employer and trained, with a salary, so we can go fly their incredibly expensive equipment without any investment on our part – and please dont tell me the cost of a multi IR even with MCC is a credible investment on our part. If you compare the investment other professionals need to make in themselves to obtain their qualification and practice, it is much much more than the amounts we are being asked to pay. For donkeys years, the best firms in the world, expected professionals such as dentists, doctors solicitors etc. to pay a fortune up front to buy into their practice once invited to do so.

You ask where will the line in the sand be drawn. In my opinion that will be only where people like me say no to paying for further training. At the moment that is not at SSTR and I make no apology for it.

20Driver said it all for me a few posts ago. I certainly wont be waiting for my senior colleagues to come to my rescue and neither should you. T’s and C’s were eroded over time because these folks allowed them to be. They cashed in T’s and C’s to keep there own high standard of living and I suspect, regrettably, that most of us would have done the exact same thing.

On Speed On Profile.

Congrats on starting the thread.
While I can fully understand your stance and opinions on SSTR’s, you don’t seem to be able to understand mine. I don’t want you to approach BALPA or any other organisation for that matter in order to eliminate SSTR. I argued for years against the closed shop monopoly that you want to reinstate. I and hundreds of others like me now have an opportunity that wasn’t there before. It dosent erode T’s n C’s, the market does. We will be paid what the market says we are worth and if that is not the case, then we have the democratic right, and tools at our disposal to fight for them. But you cant do this from the outside so I chose to get in however I could and then if necessary, fight from there. You don’t wish to do this as you are probably young enough to wait in the hope that the old regime will return. I’m old enough to know that it aint gonna happen, but, and I mean this most sincerely, good luck to you in whatever you decide.

The last point I must address is the notion that SSTR trained pilots are somehow inferior. Flypuppy’s outrageous statement that …

“…the ability to become an aircraft commander should be based on ability and performance not just the ability to pay”.

I can only assume that this statement is either meant to inflame or is based on ignorance of how SSTR’s work. An SSTR is another avenue into a TRTO that wasn’t there before and once you have been accepted, you are subjected to the full rigors of a type rating. If you are clever and choose a TRTO that is affiliated to an operator, then that companies Ops manual is also thrown at you. It is totally forgotten that you are self funded once you start and if your not up to it, you will not pass. To suggest that there are pilots in the right seat that shouldn’t be there is unbelievable. There is absolutely not correlation between aircraft incidents or accidents involving SSTR pilots so the notion that they are inferior is, I’m afraid to say, sour grapes. If it were the case, then there should be some serious incidents by now. Why not extend this rational to university. Is someone with and engineering degree from Southamton inferion to an engineer with a degree from the Institute of Electrical Engineers and vice versa. Both are internationally recognised and both attained in completely different ways.

Too many of us are trained to stay inside the box. I say, in order to get inside the box, you must first think outside of it

[AN2 Driver]

Originally Posted by Flypuppy

This is very true, but the ability to become an aircraft commander should be based on ability and performance not just the ability to pay. The filters to take the unsuitable aviators out of the system should be training and personality based not financial.

No argument whatsoever from me here! I agree fully on how it SHOULD be.

The main problem I see there is that in the days of airline/military sponsored tuition, the washout occurred rather early in the game, or if it did at a later stage it did not really hurt the applicant too much financially. Main problem today is that I personally think most flight training organisations will carry unsuitable candidates MUCH too far, even tough it is clear to the instructors even during basic IR/CPL training that they will never amount to much. The INCENTIVE here is the problem, as of course the FTO's want to make as much money on them as possible. Again, that is exactly what you say. Same goes of course for the type ratings.

At the end of the day, why should pilots have to subsidise a commercial organisation's training budget? (remember they can reclaim VAT on training - the individual cannot)

They shouldn't but they will before giving up the dream. And that is where the cash comes in. Why, in the eyes of a bean counter, should an airline pay for something the applicants are ready to pay for themselves? Never mind that they often enough put their financial future on line.....

So there is, and as far as I can see, there always has been an over supply of bright shiny newbies but now the rise of the SSTR is allowing those with more financial means the ability to get into a jet who may not be the type of people who will make decent commanders in the future.

Yep, that is exactly the reason why those who have already invested $$$$ to get to their CPL/IR/FATPL are so easy to "pursuade" to take that 3rd mortage to get the type rating....

I suspect that in a couple of years this discussion will become superfluous anyway with the introduction of the Multi-Pilot Licence, which will effectively kill the current way of commercial pilot training.

Possibly.

In no means this discussion is limited to the aviation industry btw. There are other jobs which are open to this kind of ripp off by the training institutions. If you look at the recent boom in MBA training, with many people shelling out x k $ to get that piece of paper which was often enough portrayed to be the entry door to a carefree management career. Many who have spent their $ on this have had to realize that a) the fact that everyone and his dog have got the paper now has devaluated it to a mere "requirement" rather than something that set you apart from others and b) has in the end produced so many "bloatware" courses in it, that the actual knowledge to be gotten out of it has decreased.

Lemme give you another interesting example. Language tuition. I, for one, am not of the English mothertongue which you have certainly noticed. However, I consider myself fairly fluent. I never bothered to take CAE exams, simply because I had no use for them. However, I had to notice that people who have done some of the easier of these exams (first, advanced) got in front of me at certain levels just for the fact that they have the paper, which certifies less skill than what I have. So the only way for me to prove to a prospective employer that I have sufficient command of English would be to shell out money to get a certificate I don't really need.

The list goes on. In the end, it's all commercial reality. If bringing back sponsored training as a union requirement excluding those who did their own thing is the answer, I don't know. My experience shows that while it could do something sensible in one way, it might be quite injust to others who were dedicated enough to pay their own ways only to be told "we'd like to take you but the union won't allow it." Either way, the industry is not what it was, nor will it ever be like that again.

Best regards
AN2 Driver.

[1st First Officer]

Stop paying to get a job!

Time has come for us to work together as Pilots!

When will we stop running errands for the airlines?

The insane reality with unpaid work, buying expensive typeratings or signing absurd deals of 'bonding' has to stop!

Experience and personality should be our events of competion - Not newly bought typeratings! What's the differense from paying for a typerating to simply just deliver a briefcase of money to the airlines?

Please! Stand up as one!

And fly safe..

[AlexL]

Before everyone goes off on another 'why should I pay for my training' tirade, perhaps its time to do a little research into alternative careers. Do you want to become a Doctor? a Lawyer? Chartered Accountant?. You will find that you will need to spend similar amounts of money, totally speculatively, with no guarantee of a job in order to get the qualifications, and then be expected to work on a minimal salary (if you are lucky enough to find a job) for at least the first 2 years.
Yes I'm sure we'd all wish it was different, but it ain't. It is what it is, deal with it or choose a different career.

[Flypuppy]

Carbheaton,

I am not really sure where to start with your post.

What killed off my aspirations to become a pilot, was that I got to the stage of having my CPL issued and then having to make the financial decision to continue or stop based on the likelihood of gaining employment within a reasonable time after qualifying. A couple of years ago, it was accepted that the only way of getting on was to buy a type rating. I had budgeted a certain amount for exams/cpl/multi IR and MCC. The additional £25k which I had not budgeted for was just too much, and in my humble opinion a step too far.

I happen to think that any business has the right to expect its prospective employees to be up to a certain standard before they hire them, or before the employee expects to be hired. I am absolutely amazed that we think just because we do a multi IR we should expect to be taken on by a benevolent employer and trained, with a salary, so we can go fly their incredibly expensive equipment without any investment on our part

I happen to think that CPL/IR/MCC is a certain standard. Airlines require pilots to fly their aircraft in order to make money. The cost of training staff, be it a secretary, maintenance engineer, pilot or accountant is a legitimate company expense. How quickly do you think companies would hire secretaries if the requirements included the secretary to provide their own laptop and training in company provided software? Aviation still holds a certain level of glamour and fantasy about it, but I have seen a few pilots private lives fall to pieces with the stresses and pressures that the job brings. Adding an additional financial pressure of having to pay for a type rating is not really fair on the employee – but that is just my humble opinion. I do not feel that comparisons with doctors, dentists or lawyers are particularly valid, as they do not have the ability to kill as many people in one accident as an airline pilot, nor do they carry the same amount of financial responsibility, liability insurance on aircraft runs into the billions I believe. It took Harold Shipman 20 years to kill off one 737’s worth of people….

You ask where will the line in the sand be drawn. In my opinion that will be only where people like me say no to paying for further training. At the moment that is not at SSTR and I make no apology for it.

Well what about the guy who has a little more money than you and decides he is going to pay for the command course you refuse to pay for? His line in the sand is just that little further up the beach than yours, so you will never get a command because of it. What then?

Also I have NEVER intimated that SSTR pilots are of inferior quality – but you seem to be a little sensitive to that, so who knows? Maybe there are some people kicking around who paid for a TR that were of borderline ability but they could pay a little more to get through? I do not know if that is the case, but I have heard from people within the industry that there are certainly some people who have had more money than ability.

It is not as if I am saying that anyone who has made it to the fATPL level has a God given right to a job – this is not my position and never has been.

Is someone with and engineering degree from Southamton inferion to an engineer with a degree from the Institute of Electrical Engineers and vice versa. Both are internationally recognised and both attained in completely different ways.

It has always been the case that certain universities have been recognised as being of a higher quality in teaching certain subjects than others. I suspect someone who has gained an engineering degree at Imperial is likely to be more highly thought of than someone who graduated from one of the former polytechnics.

I will withdraw from the discussion now, I will simply say that I disagree with the concept of paying for a type rating, and feel that it is a reasonable cost for an employer to bear.

[Deano777]

Sorry but it's a dog eat dog industry, and wannabe unity will never happen, end of story, if an airline offered me a position but first I had to work for 6 months for nothing and buy a type rating then I am going to do it, who wouldn't? that's the sad reality, I'm in this for me, not for everyone else as well

[A38lephant]

I have a friend training to be a vet. Approx 40K in debt, average starting salary is about 24k (so she tells me). Its not just us aviator wannabees who have it hard these days!

[Phileas Fogg]

Excuse me chaps,
But you, 1st First Officer (who obviously ain't), are attempting to enter the airline industry, an industry that doesn't owe you anything, and quite frankly an industry that couldn't give a sh1t whether 1st FO decides to become a commercial pilot or not.
Accordingly you will have to excuse the industry if they don't hold the door open, roll out the red carpet, and make a cup of tea because 1st FO has decided to call in.
Industries & times change, whether you like it or not, and has already been mentioned it's a dog eat dog world and if you don't want to put in the time and money to reap the rewards later on then step aside because there's plently in the queue behind you that will and you're standing in the way.

[Gnirren]

So you think it's time to stop paying to become an airline pilot huh?

Then I wish you all the best of luck getting an airline to sponsor your FATPL, because that's part of the expense for a pilot, is it not?

[IMC007]

Yep I totally agree with Gnirren.

People keep moaning about those who take it upon themselves to buy a type rating to try and boost their chance of employment, suggesting that this should be something the airline should be paying for (in an ideal world yeah that would be great but life isn't like that), furthermore why stop at type ratings, the argument should also stand for paying for your PPL, ME, CPL/IR, LOFT, MCC & CRM why pay for any of that, if we all stop the airlines will have to start up sponsorships.

If you believe that would ever happend dream on!!!!

[carbheaton]

Flypuppy.

You ask me…

Well what about the guy who has a little more money than you and decides he is going to pay for the command course you refuse to pay for? His line in the sand is just that little further up the beach than yours, so you will never get a command because of it. What then?

My line in the sand is still the TR as I believe, for the level of responsibility, earning potential and the chance to get started, it is not unreasonable. I can sit around and wait or get started using my own initiative. Unlike you I did budget for the TR as I expected to have to pay a certain LoCo. for a TR. The SSTR actually offered me more choice. I don’t think 'pay for command' will ever be an issue but that is my opinion based on my assessment of the industry.

Your Quote :

“Also I have NEVER intimated that SSTR pilots are of inferior quality – but you seem to be a little sensitive to that, so who knows?”

In fairness to me, I never said that you did but others have and if you look back, I was addressing those comments. However, you are correct that I am sensitive to those comments because it is using an argument that is unsubstantiated and has no basis in proof. Remember, On speed on Profile wants to lobby for the removal of a route into the cockpit that I for one would like to see remain.
I have a major problem with the automatic assumptions that those with the means to pursue a SSTR are buying their way into a cockpit that otherwise they wouldnt have a hope of getting into. The exact same filters are in place and the exact same checks and balances exist and those who are not up to it will be caught out.

AN2 Driver identifies the problem precisely. SSTR'ers who arent up to standard will be allowed to continue spending money by unscrupulous TRTO's and will have spent considerably more before being rejected - but rejected they will be. If you seek out the cheap TRTO's you are asking for trouble. There are plenty of TRTO's with good reputations, some endorsed by posts from other Ppruners on other threads and these TRTO's offer the candidate a selection process to make sure they are up to the programme and if there not than they are told so. I know two such people.

Flypuppy, you have however stated priviously.....

So there is, and as far as I can see, there always has been an over supply of bright shiny newbies but now the rise of the SSTR is allowing those with more financial means the ability to get into a jet who may not be the type of people who will make decent commanders in the future.


Again, absolutely no evidence what so ever for this assertion and while I know you have no respect for those who do a SSTR, it shows a much more worrying lack of respect for the selection process for commanders. If you really believe that unsuitable types will end up in command of aircraft, and by types I assume you mean those who choose not to balance a slug in the shape of a handle bar under their noses, then we have a much bigger problem to worry about - the complete disintegration of years of industry best practices in training, selection and on going performance evaluation throughout a pilots career. You are obviously unaware of the tens of people a week who fail sim checks and are rejected by the TRTO. The people who are rejected, including people with SSTR, don’t tend to post here – it’s a common human condition not to.

[CamelhAir]

Your line may now be drawn carbheaton, but what you manifestly fail to understand is that once upon a time, the line was drawn at NOT paying paying for TR's. Then people like you moved the line.
I know your type - you no doubt think the sun shines from MOL's posterior, you would kiss his feet to be allowed fly his 737's, you refuse to go near REPA and you will wonder in a couple of years what the hell happened to your T's and C's, why the next guy is prepared to go that bit lower than you.