The "real" Ryanair
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ROKAPE :
Im an f/o at the moment approaching 3000hrs jet time at the age of 24 (and approaching command if I choose to take it) I have a few experiences of flying with captains younger than myself. Making the combined age of the flight deck at the time 44-46 year old. In my short few years of doing the job, with 180+ pax behind us I can honestly say I have far more confidence in the younger captains that are about, than some of the older ones. The guys who get command at a stereotypical young age are VERY VERY good at their job. Some of the older ones are far past their prime and are only there becasue of their past experience not their current skill/decision making abilities.
Age is NOT comeasurate with job proficientcy!! I do try to avoid flying with the captains who have a mindset of Rokape who think they are hollier than thou. Although correcting their mistakes is a most entertaining method of getting them to shut up.
Rokape, how would you act if you had to fly in the right hand seat with a young captain ??? (if you are yourself a captain) Would you refuse due to his age??? In our company you'd be out on your RS if you did.
The 25 YO's do not have 180 people behind them. The 25 YO's are required to 'damage' people/assets. Big difference.
Im an f/o at the moment approaching 3000hrs jet time at the age of 24 (and approaching command if I choose to take it) I have a few experiences of flying with captains younger than myself. Making the combined age of the flight deck at the time 44-46 year old. In my short few years of doing the job, with 180+ pax behind us I can honestly say I have far more confidence in the younger captains that are about, than some of the older ones. The guys who get command at a stereotypical young age are VERY VERY good at their job. Some of the older ones are far past their prime and are only there becasue of their past experience not their current skill/decision making abilities.
Age is NOT comeasurate with job proficientcy!! I do try to avoid flying with the captains who have a mindset of Rokape who think they are hollier than thou. Although correcting their mistakes is a most entertaining method of getting them to shut up.
Rokape, how would you act if you had to fly in the right hand seat with a young captain ??? (if you are yourself a captain) Would you refuse due to his age??? In our company you'd be out on your RS if you did.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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BusyB,
I saw that one coming at me when I typed up my last reply, but decided not to muddy the waters by including a caveat. For the purpose of this discussion, can we assume that despite experience and skill, events can conspire to catch out the best of us, no matter what we do. While I take your point, it may also be the case that relative inexperience may cause a less experienced pilot to think twice where an older head might carry on, and trust blindly in his/her abilities to extricate themselves from a deteriorating situation.
I suppose I should clarify that I am not against older pilots, that is not my point at all.
Flyingsand, thanks for the backup. Again though, I stress my point is not really about whether 25 with 1500 hours is enough for command. My problem is with those who would slag off someone who has been deemed competent enough to take up a command. If this is a real issue, then the regulations should state that command age should be greater than 30, or whatever age/hours combination you choose.
The fact of the matter is that no such limitation exists, so tut-tutting the FR's of this world is all well and good, but frankly those that do so look to me more like the muppet characters Faire d'income has posted above, passing comment from the sidelines without being willing to debate the issue on it's own merit.
I guess the 50 yr old was experienced and skilled enough to avoid an emergency with 400 people behind him!!!
I suppose I should clarify that I am not against older pilots, that is not my point at all.
Flyingsand, thanks for the backup. Again though, I stress my point is not really about whether 25 with 1500 hours is enough for command. My problem is with those who would slag off someone who has been deemed competent enough to take up a command. If this is a real issue, then the regulations should state that command age should be greater than 30, or whatever age/hours combination you choose.
The fact of the matter is that no such limitation exists, so tut-tutting the FR's of this world is all well and good, but frankly those that do so look to me more like the muppet characters Faire d'income has posted above, passing comment from the sidelines without being willing to debate the issue on it's own merit.
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coner_mc:
Ignore them, they probably failed a command check, or haven't been offered one and the age of retirement is fast approaching. They DO seem like the perfect candidate for management however 
My problem is with those who would slag off someone who has been deemed competent enough to take up a command
I call you back
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vfenext, Faire d'income and Bart O'Lynn,
I have no interest in this case being a mere student PPL, but I find your comments about the young lady in question to be nothing short of offensive, to say the least.
If you are the type that goes out of your way to be offended by people you have come to the right place but please at least pay attention.
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Conor I made no comment about the young lady, I merely showed what I thought of the IAA.
If you are the type that goes out of your way to be offended by people you have come to the right place but please at least pay attention.
If you are the type that goes out of your way to be offended by people you have come to the right place but please at least pay attention.
My mistake, my apologies so.
Thread Starter
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How did my thread get hijacked to be a discussion of age of upgrades and experience level? I was looking for specific reasons why Ryanair should be avoided rather than the ambiguous "just because they suck". What have they done besides asking people to put up money for re-training. What are the specifics in regard to pay and working conditions that are causing people grief? Anyone based in Scotland who can PM me with specifics would be appreciated.
The Cooler King
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I wonder how many of you here at her age would have stood up on the carpet and turned down the four stripes......because you weren't "experienced" enough.
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Im an f/o at the moment approaching 3000hrs jet time at the age of 24 (and approaching command if I choose to take it) I have a few experiences of flying with captains younger than myself. Making the combined age of the flight deck at the time 44-46 year old.
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A 3000hr Capt is total madness. I wont even mention the questionable practice of promoting 24 yr olds with limited life experience. What kind of experience must their training Capts have. Choose who you fly with very very carefully.
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VFE....I disagree with respect. I have 10k plus hrs, 5K LHS. I fly with all sorts. Some with mega hrs whom I wouldnt give them a wheel barrow to mind. Yet I fly with 3k hrs merchants....some ex handlers and decision makers. It s really down to the individual.
The culture has it that it is a risk giving low timers command but FR etc have proved many wrong. The one thing that sticks with me is that M O'L is alleged to have said he can afford one crash. I hope this is hog wash.
The culture has it that it is a risk giving low timers command but FR etc have proved many wrong. The one thing that sticks with me is that M O'L is alleged to have said he can afford one crash. I hope this is hog wash.
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Vfenext, Stop talking out of your arse. FR have had plenty of Captains in their early twenties, whats your point? They don't give away commands, you are eligable to apply at certain hour thresholds it doesn't mean you will get it.
Can I ask your experience level? Are you a commercial Pilot, with airline (Jet) experience?
P.S By your logic it is now no longer safer to fly BA then either is it?
http://www.oxfordaviation.net/company/ba-pr.htm
Can I ask your experience level? Are you a commercial Pilot, with airline (Jet) experience?
P.S By your logic it is now no longer safer to fly BA then either is it?
http://www.oxfordaviation.net/company/ba-pr.htm
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This has to be the first time I have heard of anyone defending a lack of experience as a good reason to upgrade. 3000hrs is not enough for jet command and anyone with 2 brain cells will tell you that. As for comparing yourselves with BA...stop you are killing me
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vfenext how about the mil guys with commands at 500hrs?? They do a harder job, been through harder training, could do more damage if they f++k up.
may i ask....were you per chance not offered your command when YOU thought YOU were good enough??
Andy
may i ask....were you per chance not offered your command when YOU thought YOU were good enough??
Andy
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jackbauer Who said anything about comparing them to BA? My point is that if BA do it no one bats an eyelid yet when FR do its a risk. Just explain that for me, I don't understand?
Whats that got to do with anything?
@AMiller
Exactly! But they are not Fr so we won't jump on that Band Wagon.......
24 yr olds with limited life experience
@AMiller
Exactly! But they are not Fr so we won't jump on that Band Wagon.......
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Sorry ...and where is your evidence that these 3000 hour 25 year old pilots are unsafe....I dont see the fields of Europe littered with the burnt out wrecks of B737s flown by these young 'inexperienced' pilots. Proof...show it to me, or is it just plain coincidence that these pilots have not had major incidents.
Why arn't the CAA/ IAA up in arms about these 'DANGEROUS' practices? God forbid a 25 yo be able to fly as well as a 45 yo
Smells of sour grapes to me JackBauer and VFE
Why arn't the CAA/ IAA up in arms about these 'DANGEROUS' practices? God forbid a 25 yo be able to fly as well as a 45 yo
Smells of sour grapes to me JackBauer and VFE
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You guys are so jealous it's not even funny. Age has nothing to do with anything.
Do you comply with the regs?
Do you have a safe attitude and have shown complete competancy ?
Do you have enough specific experience, this is important, you cannot take a 747 captain and put him directly into short haul on new aircraft and new routes. If you've got a few thousand hours (which means 3-4 years) on the same aircraft and routes then go for it.
My uncle got long haul command on a 767 at 28 years old, by that stage he'd been flying for 10 years, he only flew with a single carrier after getting his ATP's , that's a long time on the same fleet.
To you guys who think young pilots are dangerous go get either a bomb shelter or a reality check
Do you comply with the regs?
Do you have a safe attitude and have shown complete competancy ?
Do you have enough specific experience, this is important, you cannot take a 747 captain and put him directly into short haul on new aircraft and new routes. If you've got a few thousand hours (which means 3-4 years) on the same aircraft and routes then go for it.
My uncle got long haul command on a 767 at 28 years old, by that stage he'd been flying for 10 years, he only flew with a single carrier after getting his ATP's , that's a long time on the same fleet.
To you guys who think young pilots are dangerous go get either a bomb shelter or a reality check
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Someone mentioned "good at their job". Notice the singular. The problem lies in that they are indeed good at their job which at that stage of their career consists of alot of MCP button pushing experience on one type in one operation and apeing the people next to them. Flying a few visuals here and there is not experience. Having flown for ryr for a season and returned to my own mob i can safely say it is easy to become good and efficient doing the same thing everyday. Until an objective person assesses you in a different enviroment and emergency again and the whole thing starts to make sense. Its a self perpetuating necessary system so they will of course all be good at their job. Again Singular, again operating a highly automated aircraft as they were shown to do. These people are getting praise , commands and having accolades heaped upon thenm at exactly the experience levels proven to be high risk brackets for all the above reasons. The arrogance of this company and its supporters will have to be reconciled someday. Lets hope not but cest la vie.
Unfortunately i know lots of dead pilots who were always great pilots, real stars, heard all the eulogies. except they are dead.All bush jockies, rising stars but thankfully not taking 189 with them.
Unfortunately i know lots of dead pilots who were always great pilots, real stars, heard all the eulogies. except they are dead.All bush jockies, rising stars but thankfully not taking 189 with them.
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Good at their job means exactly that they ARE good at their job...the safety records prove that. They are not being asked to do anything but their job. They are well trained to deal with emergencies should they occur, and in the past they have dealt with them admirably. Show me the accident statistics that prove that isnt true. I can show you many accidents what were perpetrated by flight crews with tens of thousands of hours between them. Can you give me examples of where these 'inexperienced' crews have done worse? No I doubt it.
I have flown with hugely experienced Captains who are c**p and I have flown with FOs with little over 3000 hours who are excelent. It is dependant on the person concerned. The upgrades are NOT rubber stamps, just because they guy has 3000 hours doesnt get him a command. It gets him a shot at command IF HE IS READY, if he passes then good luck to him/her.
It doesnt sound to me like many of the people on this thread are showing the maturity that is reguired of command themselves, be they 25 or 55, maturity is not just a consiquence of age.
Once again more sour grapes.....what was wrong one season too much for you? Miss the ILS and 10000 ft runways each end? Nows there's experience for you
I have flown with hugely experienced Captains who are c**p and I have flown with FOs with little over 3000 hours who are excelent. It is dependant on the person concerned. The upgrades are NOT rubber stamps, just because they guy has 3000 hours doesnt get him a command. It gets him a shot at command IF HE IS READY, if he passes then good luck to him/her.
It doesnt sound to me like many of the people on this thread are showing the maturity that is reguired of command themselves, be they 25 or 55, maturity is not just a consiquence of age.
Once again more sour grapes.....what was wrong one season too much for you? Miss the ILS and 10000 ft runways each end? Nows there's experience for you
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Mr flee planes ,
I just wrote a long reply then erased it in error. In order to avoid typing it all again the gist of it was I'm right you're wrong. Hope that helps . I've never missed a 10000ft runway in my life. Hit a few though. Now get back to your MCP and have fun.
I just wrote a long reply then erased it in error. In order to avoid typing it all again the gist of it was I'm right you're wrong. Hope that helps . I've never missed a 10000ft runway in my life. Hit a few though. Now get back to your MCP and have fun.