Bacx Ba & Balpa
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" Rhytem method" says in his/her post yesterday
qoute " BA love to pride themselves on the fact that they are considered a 'non-redundancy' airline.. Well waken up and smell the coffee cos BACX (A Wholly Owned Subsidiary) are about to enforce quite a few redundancies after the latest business plan (contradiction in terms!).
Would you please expand on this as many at the bottom of this hopeless airlines seniorioty list would like to hear what you have to say on the BACX redundancy subject
qoute " BA love to pride themselves on the fact that they are considered a 'non-redundancy' airline.. Well waken up and smell the coffee cos BACX (A Wholly Owned Subsidiary) are about to enforce quite a few redundancies after the latest business plan (contradiction in terms!).
Would you please expand on this as many at the bottom of this hopeless airlines seniorioty list would like to hear what you have to say on the BACX redundancy subject
Got it from a senior trainer just the other day (and I quote)...
"We are in a position where there are not enough seats for the number of crews; unless there are sufficient voluntary redundancies it will be compulsary redundancies on last-in first-out basis". (Quite a contradiction to DE saying at the recent Business Plan announcement that he couldn't morally stand over compulsary redundancies while seconded pilots remained with BACX. That moral stance didn't last too long, did it?)
Furthermore, a very high number of crew will have 1 years pay protection followed swiftly by a pay cut of £13k on average.
To sum it up, it's a bag of sh1t, and we now realise that ex-CFE crews who told us to beware BA were 100% correct. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and GB pilots should watch their backs next. The dirty tricks campaign has allegedly already begun.
"We are in a position where there are not enough seats for the number of crews; unless there are sufficient voluntary redundancies it will be compulsary redundancies on last-in first-out basis". (Quite a contradiction to DE saying at the recent Business Plan announcement that he couldn't morally stand over compulsary redundancies while seconded pilots remained with BACX. That moral stance didn't last too long, did it?)
Furthermore, a very high number of crew will have 1 years pay protection followed swiftly by a pay cut of £13k on average.
To sum it up, it's a bag of sh1t, and we now realise that ex-CFE crews who told us to beware BA were 100% correct. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and GB pilots should watch their backs next. The dirty tricks campaign has allegedly already begun.
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But rm, it's only 4 weeks ago you explained with statistics, using the term "mass exodus" to describe the retention problems at BACX. If you were correct then, why would the company offer volountary, never mind compulsory, redundancies?
Have people stopped leaving in their droves overnight?
Have people stopped leaving in their droves overnight?
Well that shows how little you really know of the current BACX situation..
quote "All the tools of Schedule C are available"...
that means Voluntary redundancy, Career breaks, Unpaid leave, Part-time working, etc etc.
That is why the company ARE offering voluntary redundancy... cos they said they would, and they know that the recent Business Plan has left them in a dire position (No-one envies CP's task in sorting out relocations, demotions, etc).
I'll publically apologise and admit I know much less than you if in 12 months time there has not been a turnover of at least the same as in the past 12 months (double the company's usual forecast turnover).
(Don't take it personally 4468, this is merely a statement of facts as currently exist)
RM
quote "All the tools of Schedule C are available"...
that means Voluntary redundancy, Career breaks, Unpaid leave, Part-time working, etc etc.
That is why the company ARE offering voluntary redundancy... cos they said they would, and they know that the recent Business Plan has left them in a dire position (No-one envies CP's task in sorting out relocations, demotions, etc).
I'll publically apologise and admit I know much less than you if in 12 months time there has not been a turnover of at least the same as in the past 12 months (double the company's usual forecast turnover).
(Don't take it personally 4468, this is merely a statement of facts as currently exist)
RM
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rm
There'll be no need to apologise, and I don't take anything personally that's posted on here.
You are right when you say I don't know much of the current stuation at BACX. It's just a little confusing to determine from the contradictory posts on pprune, whether people are leaving in their droves, or being made redundant!
I can't help wondering what the REAL truth is, especially when recruitment appears to have continued until VERY recently!!
I imagine I will be slammed for saying this, but I would be very surprised if 'big' BA allowed BACX to make pilots compulsorily redundant, whilst mainline are recruiting.
Assuming BA does not wish to take ALL BACX pilots onto the master seniority list, and only the most junior CX pilots are threatened with redundancy, should it be these 'junior' individuals who are offered mainline contracts?
Would CX pilots accept (this time!) a small number of their colleagues, moving to mainline. Or would the BACXCC scupper the plan, by once again insisting 'everybody, or nobody'?
There'll be no need to apologise, and I don't take anything personally that's posted on here.
You are right when you say I don't know much of the current stuation at BACX. It's just a little confusing to determine from the contradictory posts on pprune, whether people are leaving in their droves, or being made redundant!
I can't help wondering what the REAL truth is, especially when recruitment appears to have continued until VERY recently!!
I imagine I will be slammed for saying this, but I would be very surprised if 'big' BA allowed BACX to make pilots compulsorily redundant, whilst mainline are recruiting.
Assuming BA does not wish to take ALL BACX pilots onto the master seniority list, and only the most junior CX pilots are threatened with redundancy, should it be these 'junior' individuals who are offered mainline contracts?
Would CX pilots accept (this time!) a small number of their colleagues, moving to mainline. Or would the BACXCC scupper the plan, by once again insisting 'everybody, or nobody'?
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Regional accents are fine indeed, often preferred.
However you can have a regional accent and still sound intelligent and articulate.
Or you could sound like a thick Scouser.
Must be a Liverpool Flying Club thing. After all GA attitudes prevail in the RJ fleet now don't they?
However you can have a regional accent and still sound intelligent and articulate.
Or you could sound like a thick Scouser.
Must be a Liverpool Flying Club thing. After all GA attitudes prevail in the RJ fleet now don't they?
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Piece of advice:
Anyone on a BACX contract being made redundant ahead of a secondee on a BA contract might like to pay a visit to an employment lawyer to determine whether he or she should be made redundant ahead of a sub-contracted (BA) pilot.
There is legislation out there to protect you, so use it.
'Without prejudice.'
'round midnight
Anyone on a BACX contract being made redundant ahead of a secondee on a BA contract might like to pay a visit to an employment lawyer to determine whether he or she should be made redundant ahead of a sub-contracted (BA) pilot.
There is legislation out there to protect you, so use it.
'Without prejudice.'
'round midnight
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'rm
"Anyone on a BACX contract being made redundant ahead of a secondee on a BA contract might like to pay a visit to an employment lawyer to determine whether he or she should be made redundant ahead of a sub-contracted (BA) pilot."
But secondees aren't 'sub-contracted' are they?
Pay a visit by all means, and spend money if you have some to spare! Just don't expect any return on your cash!
No pilots in BACX will be 'forced' into redundancy - You read it here first!
I do however feel sympathetic towards other trades, who quite possibly WILL face redundancy! Don't hear too much about them do you!!
"Anyone on a BACX contract being made redundant ahead of a secondee on a BA contract might like to pay a visit to an employment lawyer to determine whether he or she should be made redundant ahead of a sub-contracted (BA) pilot."
But secondees aren't 'sub-contracted' are they?
Pay a visit by all means, and spend money if you have some to spare! Just don't expect any return on your cash!
No pilots in BACX will be 'forced' into redundancy - You read it here first!
I do however feel sympathetic towards other trades, who quite possibly WILL face redundancy! Don't hear too much about them do you!!
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Move to GB -- If BALPA are worth their salt, surely they will look after the interest of GB pilots and not just the Nigels who want to keep away from LHR/LGW.
BA have tried this tact before with GB and they were politely told that it was a non-starter.
BA have tried this tact before with GB and they were politely told that it was a non-starter.
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Word on the tarmac is that the seconded are willing to move and have suggested to BALPA that they like the look of GB at Manchester
I must say, I think it's disgraceful the way the BACX management are treating some BACX pilots regarding the latest aircraft bid. A number of pilots have been phoned to be told "you haven't achieved any of your bids so would you please widen your selection." Bidding is all about requesting what you want and if you don't get it then you're moved and the company has to pay the price. Surely the current situation amounts to the company saying "you haven't achieved any of your bids and we're now faced with paying for your relocation expenses and pay-protection. Would you mind taking a pay-cut by bidding for something you don't want." As bral says, it's a great shame when you see what the future holds for some of the RJ training captains.
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false capture
bral is indeed correct, bacx secondees HAVE approached balpa and are pushing for GB seats at MAN.
4468
64 resignations to date since december! if that ain't a mass exodus, what is?
bral is indeed correct, bacx secondees HAVE approached balpa and are pushing for GB seats at MAN.
4468
64 resignations to date since december! if that ain't a mass exodus, what is?
I can't vouch for those figures, but if accurate, that's 12.5% of the workforce in 5 months. The problem is, I know of even more who are waiting for start dates with competitors, and will then accept the redundancy package, so they won't be walking away empty-handed.
False Capture, bral tells no lie.. that is the latest word going around BACX. Whether it comes to fruition or not is another thing, but I alluded to it on another posting.
4468, whichever way you look at it, it's bad news for BACX management cos a lot of very experienced crews have had enough of the poor treatment, and are pouncing at any opportunity to leave the floundering ship. Be it by handing in their notice, accepting voluntary redundancy, deliberately picking unattainable bids so as to force the company's hand into compulsary redundancy payouts... the only investment in BACX at the moment should be a revolving door to avoid a crush in the stampede!
Sad, but true.
False Capture, bral tells no lie.. that is the latest word going around BACX. Whether it comes to fruition or not is another thing, but I alluded to it on another posting.
4468, whichever way you look at it, it's bad news for BACX management cos a lot of very experienced crews have had enough of the poor treatment, and are pouncing at any opportunity to leave the floundering ship. Be it by handing in their notice, accepting voluntary redundancy, deliberately picking unattainable bids so as to force the company's hand into compulsary redundancy payouts... the only investment in BACX at the moment should be a revolving door to avoid a crush in the stampede!
Sad, but true.
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BA don't want the secondees at MAN so it doesn't matter if an approach has been made to BACC. BALPA have told all the MAN secondees that BA want them back in London.
The approach to BALPA regarding GB at MAN was made before the supplementary bid closed. The secondees are now committed to their new bids, as I said in a previous post only a handful (6 to be exact) wanted to stay with the RJ when it moves north. The results will be announced later this week but it looks like most have achieved their EDI bid.
The remainder (about 20) will return to London with a successful Aspirational Bid or they'll be directed with a Forced Bid. Flying for GB at MAN is simply not an option.
p.s. I heard that 65 BACX pilots had resigned since end of November.
The approach to BALPA regarding GB at MAN was made before the supplementary bid closed. The secondees are now committed to their new bids, as I said in a previous post only a handful (6 to be exact) wanted to stay with the RJ when it moves north. The results will be announced later this week but it looks like most have achieved their EDI bid.
The remainder (about 20) will return to London with a successful Aspirational Bid or they'll be directed with a Forced Bid. Flying for GB at MAN is simply not an option.
p.s. I heard that 65 BACX pilots had resigned since end of November.
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TR,
Not a sub-contractee? You're sure?
Who's your contract with? Who's your union, Balpa BACC or BACX? Where do you get your seniority from? Which piece of paper would you refer to if things went wrong for you, your BA contract? Where do you get the right to bid from, Ba or BACX? Have you signed a contract with BACX?
Trust me, it doesn't matter what the cosy arrangement appears like to you, in my experience a forensic analysis by the employment tribunal will determine who your employer really is. Quite often, the intention of the parties fails to reflect the actual contractual position of the parties.
So, if for one moment the tribunal thought you were employed by BA but 'sub-contracted' to BACX, then they'd expect your sorry arse to be fired before any employee of BACX.
You've got to decide which cake you want to eat, cos the tribunal ain't gonna let you pig out on both.
'round midnight
Not a sub-contractee? You're sure?
Who's your contract with? Who's your union, Balpa BACC or BACX? Where do you get your seniority from? Which piece of paper would you refer to if things went wrong for you, your BA contract? Where do you get the right to bid from, Ba or BACX? Have you signed a contract with BACX?
Trust me, it doesn't matter what the cosy arrangement appears like to you, in my experience a forensic analysis by the employment tribunal will determine who your employer really is. Quite often, the intention of the parties fails to reflect the actual contractual position of the parties.
So, if for one moment the tribunal thought you were employed by BA but 'sub-contracted' to BACX, then they'd expect your sorry arse to be fired before any employee of BACX.
You've got to decide which cake you want to eat, cos the tribunal ain't gonna let you pig out on both.
'round midnight
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Surely all BACX pilots are the ones who are sub-contracted? i.e. they (and BACX) are doing work that was originally done by BA. BA were too expensive, so BA sub-contracted it out to a cheaper subsidiary.
The result of this is that the proper BA pilots should have the first choice of what work they want and where they want to work from. The sub-contracted guys (i.e. BACX pilots) should join the back of the queue and recognise the rights of their more senior colleagues.
The result of this is that the proper BA pilots should have the first choice of what work they want and where they want to work from. The sub-contracted guys (i.e. BACX pilots) should join the back of the queue and recognise the rights of their more senior colleagues.
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rm
I don't believe I pig out on either cake, I simply take a little of each, as has been agreed by BOTH sides!
The 'popularity' of BACX with it's current employees, and the level of recent recruitment, seems to suggest that compulsory redundancies are highly unlikely, don't you think?
I don't believe I pig out on either cake, I simply take a little of each, as has been agreed by BOTH sides!
The 'popularity' of BACX with it's current employees, and the level of recent recruitment, seems to suggest that compulsory redundancies are highly unlikely, don't you think?
Quidnunc, the lowest cheapest attempt at a swipe I have ever seen. There is NO WAY you possibly could actually be a pilot because our fraternity!(yeah!) could honestly never ever be that disparaging to fellow professionals.. however, for your spotters logbook (if you've actually even gone so far as to purchase one), when BACX were formed,
.. BA didn't operate MAN to ABZ, BHD, BFS, CPH, DUS, GIB, IOM, NCE, ORK, OSL, VIE, VCE, SOU, SNN, PIA, (MXP was already dropped), NOC, LDY, ..... and I'm sure there are PLENTY more from the other bases. As for the 'rights of their more senior colleagues' you will find that quite a few BACX pilots are actually more senior in DOJ than their more privileged mainline counterparts, and furthermore your post (if attempting to support secondees) is actually quite detrimental to the overall situation. The mainline guys who I see every day generally feel that while their positions in the regions are secured, we should be given a realistic opportunity to secure our lives by open access to BA. They acknowledge that there is some political agenda to limit the number of 'internal' applicants to mainline...
to be told that the reason your sim assessment was unsuccessful was "your LOC/DME profile was flown 3 knots too fast" (actual example) is quite obviously bullsh1t.
BA are most likely trying to pullout of the regional market, and their commercial approach recently could be seen as evidence of this.
The company as a whole will suffer for many reasons...
.. BA didn't operate MAN to ABZ, BHD, BFS, CPH, DUS, GIB, IOM, NCE, ORK, OSL, VIE, VCE, SOU, SNN, PIA, (MXP was already dropped), NOC, LDY, ..... and I'm sure there are PLENTY more from the other bases. As for the 'rights of their more senior colleagues' you will find that quite a few BACX pilots are actually more senior in DOJ than their more privileged mainline counterparts, and furthermore your post (if attempting to support secondees) is actually quite detrimental to the overall situation. The mainline guys who I see every day generally feel that while their positions in the regions are secured, we should be given a realistic opportunity to secure our lives by open access to BA. They acknowledge that there is some political agenda to limit the number of 'internal' applicants to mainline...
to be told that the reason your sim assessment was unsuccessful was "your LOC/DME profile was flown 3 knots too fast" (actual example) is quite obviously bullsh1t.
BA are most likely trying to pullout of the regional market, and their commercial approach recently could be seen as evidence of this.
The company as a whole will suffer for many reasons...
Last edited by rhythm method; 29th Apr 2005 at 04:55.