Bacx Ba & Balpa
Bacx Ba & Balpa
Hand,
this was obviously not started by Capt P. to generate another BA/BACX slanging match so leave the 'debate' to those that are actually affected by the recent announcements. You are in a pretty enviable position so...
As for those of us who are actually REALLY affected by BA (mis)managements recent attempt at the regional flying game...
...I am quite surprised at the company-wide feeling of misrepresentation (or lack of adequate representation) by BALPA. Yes, our CC are working their butts off for free, but when BACC are seen to be actively making deals to help one element of the workforce, against the interests of another BALPA PAYING part of the company... who knows where it may lead?
Separate company councils representing crew working for the same 'parent company' is undoubtedly counter-productive. Lets face it... it is known as a UNION for what reason? (Check a dictionary please).
Hand... you really ought to actually speak to some of your seconded colleagues up here in Manchester. They are no longer spouting the usual cr@p about 'them and us' cos nowadays it's 'us and us'. This really is a time when 2 company councils united will stand a chance. While the current 'divide and rule' concept is allowed to flourish, there will NEVER be any safe base or posting (BHX included).
Get those rose tinted Ray Bans off before it's too late.
RM
this was obviously not started by Capt P. to generate another BA/BACX slanging match so leave the 'debate' to those that are actually affected by the recent announcements. You are in a pretty enviable position so...
As for those of us who are actually REALLY affected by BA (mis)managements recent attempt at the regional flying game...
...I am quite surprised at the company-wide feeling of misrepresentation (or lack of adequate representation) by BALPA. Yes, our CC are working their butts off for free, but when BACC are seen to be actively making deals to help one element of the workforce, against the interests of another BALPA PAYING part of the company... who knows where it may lead?
Separate company councils representing crew working for the same 'parent company' is undoubtedly counter-productive. Lets face it... it is known as a UNION for what reason? (Check a dictionary please).
Hand... you really ought to actually speak to some of your seconded colleagues up here in Manchester. They are no longer spouting the usual cr@p about 'them and us' cos nowadays it's 'us and us'. This really is a time when 2 company councils united will stand a chance. While the current 'divide and rule' concept is allowed to flourish, there will NEVER be any safe base or posting (BHX included).
Get those rose tinted Ray Bans off before it's too late.
RM
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Both employers want the secondees back in London..BACX want to secure jobs for its pilots, BA are desperately short of pilots at LHR However it is BALPA that tries to secure slots on RJ for secondees! At the expense of BACX pilots.. 
We all feel for individuals from both companies being affected by the BP05. We don't agree a one way traffic is a solution..Nor operating a mixed fleet with two groups on very different T'&C's. A compromise should accommodate both pilot groups. Balpa have the power and means to help sort this. As I mentioned above both managements want the same solution..
It doesn't appear that Balpa is going to change its attitude regarding lost BACX jobs and Commands..So come on New Road. Show you will help BACX in future and get some bodies back/down to LHR. Leave those who's lives are in the regions to get on with it! How about getting BACX seniority no. within BA so pilots can bid to go to LHR if they so wish??
We all feel for individuals from both companies being affected by the BP05. We don't agree a one way traffic is a solution..Nor operating a mixed fleet with two groups on very different T'&C's. A compromise should accommodate both pilot groups. Balpa have the power and means to help sort this. As I mentioned above both managements want the same solution..
It doesn't appear that Balpa is going to change its attitude regarding lost BACX jobs and Commands..So come on New Road. Show you will help BACX in future and get some bodies back/down to LHR. Leave those who's lives are in the regions to get on with it! How about getting BACX seniority no. within BA so pilots can bid to go to LHR if they so wish??
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cap.pulitov
I strongly suspect that when the final picture becomes clear, you will find that the BACC has been pragmatic, accomodating, and sensitive to the interests of those in BACX.
You spoke of a compromise to accomodate both pilot groups. I believe that is EXACTLY what has happened.
No doubt, you will wish to express your thanks to the BACC, when the time comes.
I confidently predict a number of secondees will choose to return to LHR rather than relocate to EDI, IOM, or INV and that there will be NO compulsory redundancies in the BACX pilot workforce. (Though with the high turnover of pilots, that was never likely - we may revisit this when BACX next recruit, if indeed they have ever ceased!)
On a more general note: You mention that;
"both managements want the same solution.."
Are you suggesting that 'management solutions' are always desirable?
I presume like me, you would like YOUR union to ensure YOUR agreements are safeguarded?
We can agree, can't we.
I strongly suspect that when the final picture becomes clear, you will find that the BACC has been pragmatic, accomodating, and sensitive to the interests of those in BACX.
You spoke of a compromise to accomodate both pilot groups. I believe that is EXACTLY what has happened.
No doubt, you will wish to express your thanks to the BACC, when the time comes.
I confidently predict a number of secondees will choose to return to LHR rather than relocate to EDI, IOM, or INV and that there will be NO compulsory redundancies in the BACX pilot workforce. (Though with the high turnover of pilots, that was never likely - we may revisit this when BACX next recruit, if indeed they have ever ceased!)
On a more general note: You mention that;
"both managements want the same solution.."
Are you suggesting that 'management solutions' are always desirable?
I presume like me, you would like YOUR union to ensure YOUR agreements are safeguarded?
We can agree, can't we.
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 6th Apr 2005 at 17:56.
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Hi bf
Thanks for asking. As I said, the compromise is that some of us will be leaving, and some of us will be staying.
What about you? As you are Scottish based, are you hoping for an RJ seat? You MAY find secondees aren't all bad!!
I strongly agree with your views on the war in Iraq by the way!
Thanks for asking. As I said, the compromise is that some of us will be leaving, and some of us will be staying.
What about you? As you are Scottish based, are you hoping for an RJ seat? You MAY find secondees aren't all bad!!
I strongly agree with your views on the war in Iraq by the way!
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Tandem
Hope to stay up north but on the 145 preferably. Last thing i'd want is to go 'darn souff'!
May have to tho' if the good jobs up here all get taken.
Thanks for your comment re Iraq. Nice to know someone noticed.
Hope to stay up north but on the 145 preferably. Last thing i'd want is to go 'darn souff'!
May have to tho' if the good jobs up here all get taken.
Thanks for your comment re Iraq. Nice to know someone noticed.
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Hello Tandem,
We didn't expect all secondees to go to EDI,INV,IOM as commuting to LHR is prefferable..But a bunch of our long serving Captains are about to be demoted and displaced with little options of commuting..Did the BACC think about these pilots?
If they did and have a proper compromise I will send each and every one of the BACC a letter of thanks with some flowers
I don't believe an arrangement to see some secondees going to LHR is an acceptable compromise to BACX Pilots..sorry!!
And as I said if BA allow some of the displaced pilots in BACX to bid to LHR to try and continue with their 'normal' lives i.e commute from their place of residence, that will be a compromise
Do you really want to know how much our relocation package is worth? or V.Redundancy? (Or Pay??) It is shameful. Add to this loss of Command pay, staff travel and loss of licence to demoted Captains and you will realize why BACX pilots are so pissed off!
We didn't expect all secondees to go to EDI,INV,IOM as commuting to LHR is prefferable..But a bunch of our long serving Captains are about to be demoted and displaced with little options of commuting..Did the BACC think about these pilots?
If they did and have a proper compromise I will send each and every one of the BACC a letter of thanks with some flowers
I don't believe an arrangement to see some secondees going to LHR is an acceptable compromise to BACX Pilots..sorry!!
And as I said if BA allow some of the displaced pilots in BACX to bid to LHR to try and continue with their 'normal' lives i.e commute from their place of residence, that will be a compromise
Do you really want to know how much our relocation package is worth? or V.Redundancy? (Or Pay??) It is shameful. Add to this loss of Command pay, staff travel and loss of licence to demoted Captains and you will realize why BACX pilots are so pissed off!
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cap.pulitov
You "don't believe an arrangement to see some secondees going to LHR is an acceptable compromise to BACX Pilots."
Assuming BA wish to continue with their current policy of SELECTING the BACX pilots they wish to employ;
(A policy not in the control of the BACC, BACXCC, or BACX)
what WOULD be an "acceptable compromise"?
You "don't believe an arrangement to see some secondees going to LHR is an acceptable compromise to BACX Pilots."
Assuming BA wish to continue with their current policy of SELECTING the BACX pilots they wish to employ;
(A policy not in the control of the BACC, BACXCC, or BACX)
what WOULD be an "acceptable compromise"?
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I would suggest that an acceptable compromise would be simple equality of opportunity.
Like Captain Pulitov, I will send each and every member of BACC a handwritten letter of thanks if they could even produce evidence that they had suggested equality of opportunity (ie ability to bid for LHR jobs like some of their colleagues) to the BA management they negotiate with. In BACX we realise fully that BACC or BACXCC will not achieve all their aspirations. However, it would be quite refreshing to feel that BACC had made the effort, even if it failed.
I will go further, I will admit
that every post of mine disagreeing with Tandem was inaccurate 
, and that he knew and knows more about BACX than I ever could. All he needs to do is support the idea of equality of opportunity for pilots within the same Company. I do not mean opportunity for BACX pilots ahead of secondees, just the same opportunity according to rank and seniority. If he can't (or won't) do that, I'm sure judgements will be made accordingly.
I hesitated to post here, because of the tirade that reasoned argument usually attracts from the secondee readers. Hopefully however this time there will not be more of the usual nauseating Blairite smirking, insincerity and duplicitous language one becomes accustomed to from TR and his friends.
Inshallah.
Like Captain Pulitov, I will send each and every member of BACC a handwritten letter of thanks if they could even produce evidence that they had suggested equality of opportunity (ie ability to bid for LHR jobs like some of their colleagues) to the BA management they negotiate with. In BACX we realise fully that BACC or BACXCC will not achieve all their aspirations. However, it would be quite refreshing to feel that BACC had made the effort, even if it failed.
I will go further, I will admit
that every post of mine disagreeing with Tandem was inaccurate , and that he knew and knows more about BACX than I ever could. All he needs to do is support the idea of equality of opportunity for pilots within the same Company. I do not mean opportunity for BACX pilots ahead of secondees, just the same opportunity according to rank and seniority. If he can't (or won't) do that, I'm sure judgements will be made accordingly.I hesitated to post here, because of the tirade that reasoned argument usually attracts from the secondee readers. Hopefully however this time there will not be more of the usual nauseating Blairite smirking, insincerity and duplicitous language one becomes accustomed to from TR and his friends.
Inshallah.
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The question is why do BA wish to continue and select BACX pilots ,some who have already been trained by BA as Captains flying BA AOC A/C..Some politics!
Equal opportunities for MAN pilots should see the RJ situation as base closure for BACX pilots and they should be able to bid to LHR. This a fair compromise. I do appreciate the BACC not allowing BHX RJ secondees to bid outside BHX on RJ but this doesn,t help with long term solution . Anyway more meetings with Balpa are taking place over the coming week- Hopefully BACX workforce can unite behind our CC and look after its pilots! Just like pilots in BA!
Equal opportunities for MAN pilots should see the RJ situation as base closure for BACX pilots and they should be able to bid to LHR. This a fair compromise. I do appreciate the BACC not allowing BHX RJ secondees to bid outside BHX on RJ but this doesn,t help with long term solution . Anyway more meetings with Balpa are taking place over the coming week- Hopefully BACX workforce can unite behind our CC and look after its pilots! Just like pilots in BA!
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After the fairly recent situation where BA took CityFlyer pilots onto the bottom of the seniority list i can't see BA taking on another pilot that hasn't gone throught the full selecion procedure. most of the CityFlyer pilots were excellent, however the failure/chop rate was considerably higher that with pilots that come through selection.
I know the aptitude tests / interview / etc..do seem quite unlinked to flying jets but it seems they do seem to work.
I know the aptitude tests / interview / etc..do seem quite unlinked to flying jets but it seems they do seem to work.
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I usually steer well clear of these BA v BACX debates but surely all that is needed here is a little common sense by all parties. No one in BA management BACX management the BACC or BACXCC wants to see anyone disadvantaged, I'm sure. However, there are facts of life to be faced. The decision to move the RJs to EDI must have had the blessing of the BA board therefore it is BA as a whole who must find a solution. The grounding of the 146s is a slightly different arguement. I was once told never get caught using common sense but I have decided to give it a go !
The BA secondees at Manchester are there, largely, because that is where they want to live. They don't want to commute to LHR and by the same definition I would suspect they also do not want to commute to EDI. However, would there be any reason they couldn't bid onto the BA 767 fleet with the proviso that under bidline they had priority for the MAN-JFK. (A bit of lateral thinking by BA mainline reqiured - is that beyond them ?). They would probably be away less than they are now. There is no need for any extra expense to BA or BACX other than their 767 courses. In fact it would surely save money in hotels and taxis.
An uncomfortable fact of life is that there are now not enough seats in BACX for all the people who want to occupy them. I appreciate the deal the secondees have and in their position I would not be prepared to give it up either. So why make them give it up. In return for their continued life in the regions why can't the BA and BACX CC get their heads together and get the combined managements to accept a deal where BA Mainline undertake to employ a number of BACX pilots equal to or greater than the number of BACX seats occupied by secondees. If that has to be via some kind of selection then so be it. However, this must leave as few people disadvantged as possible and I appreciate this isn't going to solve everyone's personal problems.
I am fortunate not to be personally affected this time, although with all the other F/Os in the company the prospect of career progression is likely to have to now be elsewhere. However, having been relocated in the past I know how it feels and wish all you guys in MAN the best.
Finally, we all need to accept that in life we all want to look after number 1. Being abusive to each other on here about who's number 1 has the most rights or ability doesn't get us anywhere. Might make you feel better for five minutes that's all. If BALPA BA and BACX don't start working together all our number 1s are going to lose out in the end not matter where you came from or what deal you have now.
I will now find a sofa to hide behind in expectation of the repsonses !
The BA secondees at Manchester are there, largely, because that is where they want to live. They don't want to commute to LHR and by the same definition I would suspect they also do not want to commute to EDI. However, would there be any reason they couldn't bid onto the BA 767 fleet with the proviso that under bidline they had priority for the MAN-JFK. (A bit of lateral thinking by BA mainline reqiured - is that beyond them ?). They would probably be away less than they are now. There is no need for any extra expense to BA or BACX other than their 767 courses. In fact it would surely save money in hotels and taxis.
An uncomfortable fact of life is that there are now not enough seats in BACX for all the people who want to occupy them. I appreciate the deal the secondees have and in their position I would not be prepared to give it up either. So why make them give it up. In return for their continued life in the regions why can't the BA and BACX CC get their heads together and get the combined managements to accept a deal where BA Mainline undertake to employ a number of BACX pilots equal to or greater than the number of BACX seats occupied by secondees. If that has to be via some kind of selection then so be it. However, this must leave as few people disadvantged as possible and I appreciate this isn't going to solve everyone's personal problems.
I am fortunate not to be personally affected this time, although with all the other F/Os in the company the prospect of career progression is likely to have to now be elsewhere. However, having been relocated in the past I know how it feels and wish all you guys in MAN the best.
Finally, we all need to accept that in life we all want to look after number 1. Being abusive to each other on here about who's number 1 has the most rights or ability doesn't get us anywhere. Might make you feel better for five minutes that's all. If BALPA BA and BACX don't start working together all our number 1s are going to lose out in the end not matter where you came from or what deal you have now.
I will now find a sofa to hide behind in expectation of the repsonses !
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The supplementary bid for all 25 (23 captains and 2 first officers)MAN secondees ended at 9 o'clock this morning. I believe CP will be supplied with a list of those secondees who want to fly the RJ at EDI, INV or IOM. Final selection will be determined by date of joining parent company, eg. a BA secondee who joined BA in 1998 will be outbid by a BACX pilot who joined Manx in 1995. No preference or special treatment is being given to the secondees in this respect.
It looks like there's only a handful of secondees who have aspired for commands at EDI, INV or IOM. Once you introduce the date of joining the parent company, there may only be a couple of secondees who have enough seniority to move with the aircraft.
cap.pulitov and The Little Prince, it looks like the BACC has approached the subject with fairness and consideration for the BACX community. This time (unlike the original transfer of the RJ) there is no advantage in being a secondee in order to get the seat and base of your choice.
It looks like there's only a handful of secondees who have aspired for commands at EDI, INV or IOM. Once you introduce the date of joining the parent company, there may only be a couple of secondees who have enough seniority to move with the aircraft.
cap.pulitov and The Little Prince, it looks like the BACC has approached the subject with fairness and consideration for the BACX community. This time (unlike the original transfer of the RJ) there is no advantage in being a secondee in order to get the seat and base of your choice.
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A good point Paul, thank you.
It is interesting to note, (and please, everyone, try and take this in the objective way it is meant), that False Capture says:
"it looks like the BACC has approached the subject with fairness and consideration for the BACX community. This time (unlike the original transfer of the RJ) there is no advantage in being a secondee in order to get the seat and base of your choice."
In other words, since there is no advantage being a mainline person, we'll level the playing field!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On balance, I continue to believe that the totally breath-taking hypocrisy of the BA mainliners who post on here is simply beyond belief. Oh yeah, we'll errrrr play fair on THIS occasion since there's no advantage to us by not doing!!!!!
Do we LOOK as though we sailed up the Mersey on a Banana Boat?????? Get a life!
It is interesting to note, (and please, everyone, try and take this in the objective way it is meant), that False Capture says:
"it looks like the BACC has approached the subject with fairness and consideration for the BACX community. This time (unlike the original transfer of the RJ) there is no advantage in being a secondee in order to get the seat and base of your choice."
In other words, since there is no advantage being a mainline person, we'll level the playing field!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On balance, I continue to believe that the totally breath-taking hypocrisy of the BA mainliners who post on here is simply beyond belief. Oh yeah, we'll errrrr play fair on THIS occasion since there's no advantage to us by not doing!!!!!
Do we LOOK as though we sailed up the Mersey on a Banana Boat?????? Get a life!