BACX pilots have priority
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BACX pilots have priority
Following non-type rated applications successful applicants will be placed in the holding pool.
As and when vacancies arise any successful BACX applicant in the pool will be brought in before any other external applicant.
BTSM
As and when vacancies arise any successful BACX applicant in the pool will be brought in before any other external applicant.
BTSM
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Mummy used to say that half a loaf was better than no bread.....however crumbs are something else. 
The point remains that we have pilots who have flown BA AOC aircraft on BA routes with BA seniority list co-pilots. We have training Captains who have trained mainline so-called pilots to fly the RJ100, the J41 and the ATP.
You are telling us that these guys, and the rest of us, are supposed to be grateful for this latest alleged benefit? What we have consistently asked for is the same treatment as the CityFlyer guys. We know it won't happen, but don't blame us for pointing out that it was one of the mainline guys on attachment who most recently dropped a large clanger (and nearly an RJ with it) by cleaning up in a somewhat non-standard fashion on departure recently.
We're entitled to a whole tree, never mind the odd chip!
The point remains that we have pilots who have flown BA AOC aircraft on BA routes with BA seniority list co-pilots. We have training Captains who have trained mainline so-called pilots to fly the RJ100, the J41 and the ATP.
You are telling us that these guys, and the rest of us, are supposed to be grateful for this latest alleged benefit? What we have consistently asked for is the same treatment as the CityFlyer guys. We know it won't happen, but don't blame us for pointing out that it was one of the mainline guys on attachment who most recently dropped a large clanger (and nearly an RJ with it) by cleaning up in a somewhat non-standard fashion on departure recently.
We're entitled to a whole tree, never mind the odd chip!
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Typical small minded bitter responses.
Personally I couldn't give a sh1t whether you lot get priority or not.
In fact if it was up to me I'd leave you all to fight it out on FCFS basis especially if the above is your attitude.
I just hope the guys we do get from CX don't have the above attitudes/chips. Do they exist in CX or are you all bitter and twisted?
What it boils down to,it would seem, is self pity and a desperation to join BA. Get over it, its not pretty to read.
BTSM
Personally I couldn't give a sh1t whether you lot get priority or not.
In fact if it was up to me I'd leave you all to fight it out on FCFS basis especially if the above is your attitude.
I just hope the guys we do get from CX don't have the above attitudes/chips. Do they exist in CX or are you all bitter and twisted?
What it boils down to,it would seem, is self pity and a desperation to join BA. Get over it, its not pretty to read.
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It's a funny old world. I've actually just read the BA DEP thread. It seems even the BA guys advise against joining BA. Nuff said methinks, except to point out that actually, yes, most of us despise the general attitude coming from guys like you. Individually some of our secondees are good blokes, particularly the ex CFE ones. But as a group?? I suggest you read a few more posts on most peoples views on the BA "Culture" and the type it breeds. If we have any self pity, it's entirely because of what BA have done to our Company - but we're in a long an distinguished list there.
Behind the second midland is a good place for you to sit, try and get a bit closer to the jet pipe, you'll enjoy the whine!!
Behind the second midland is a good place for you to sit, try and get a bit closer to the jet pipe, you'll enjoy the whine!!
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Don't worry BTSM, the likes of Little Prince would never make it through the BA interview process, probably why he's so desperate to be given unrestricted access to mainline. Still i've shared enough beers in GLA with CX pilots to know there's some good ones in the bunch, I'm sure they'd have more luck if they chose to make the switch.
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Carnage
I quite agree. Many of the CX boys I've met have been top notch and my pals on secondment say, in general, they are good guys.The company, however, they say is a joke.
As you say small minded bitter jealous little men like the above hopefully would fail anyway.
May be he's a Souser and "Hooked on Grief/Victim status" (well said Boris, by the way)!!
See private message.
BTSM
I quite agree. Many of the CX boys I've met have been top notch and my pals on secondment say, in general, they are good guys.The company, however, they say is a joke.
As you say small minded bitter jealous little men like the above hopefully would fail anyway.
May be he's a Souser and "Hooked on Grief/Victim status" (well said Boris, by the way)!!
See private message.
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quote:It's a funny old world. I've actually just read the BA DEP thread. It seems even the BA guys advise against joining BA. Nuff said methinks,
how many pilots are leaving BA? not alot, nuff said me thinks!
how many pilots are leaving BA? not alot, nuff said me thinks!
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Carnage Matey and Behind the Second Midland, you guys just don't have a clue.
As for the company being a mess, well that would surely be down to management? And where do THEY come from.....?
As for the company being a mess, well that would surely be down to management? And where do THEY come from.....?
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Ndekepilot ,is your name swahili based?if so check your spelling.
As far as i see it you all dont work for ba but a company they bought. Neither were you part of cityflyer.
You Signed a contract with your eyes open.Was there a clause granting you grandfather rights on BA (pre takeover)? .Or a clause granting you access to ba (post takeover). I'm talking about the contract you all signed with your employer , not any union agreements good or bad.
If you entered into an agreement to fly for any of the original companies or cx to fly their planes then thats what you should do.
When the merge /buyout happened and you werent informed of the deal you wanted that was the time to leave. If you stuck aound stop behaving like one of Boris' scousers.
So if you get priority over normal applictaions at BA then that is one more advantage than i have for no real reason other than you play at Ba during the day. so stop bitchin
So many people in this country mortgaged their lifes wives et al, jumped thru so many caa hoops to get where they are and then turn into whinging bank clarks complaining about another branch.
Get a grip the lot of you , you dont know your born.
Big boys rules..you win some you loose some....
Ps your sandwiches are crap as well as only half size
As far as i see it you all dont work for ba but a company they bought. Neither were you part of cityflyer.
You Signed a contract with your eyes open.Was there a clause granting you grandfather rights on BA (pre takeover)? .Or a clause granting you access to ba (post takeover). I'm talking about the contract you all signed with your employer , not any union agreements good or bad.
If you entered into an agreement to fly for any of the original companies or cx to fly their planes then thats what you should do.
When the merge /buyout happened and you werent informed of the deal you wanted that was the time to leave. If you stuck aound stop behaving like one of Boris' scousers.
So if you get priority over normal applictaions at BA then that is one more advantage than i have for no real reason other than you play at Ba during the day. so stop bitchin
So many people in this country mortgaged their lifes wives et al, jumped thru so many caa hoops to get where they are and then turn into whinging bank clarks complaining about another branch.
Get a grip the lot of you , you dont know your born.
Big boys rules..you win some you loose some....
Ps your sandwiches are crap as well as only half size
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Come on boys get real.
Following BA's franchise and ownership you can fly into Europe now and not just to Fraggle rock and back.
As for the service...not the crew's fault but half sandwiches and last week no newpapers for Club out of OSL at £600 a ticket.
Still you can only blame BA for pedalling and inferior product in their name.
BTSM
Following BA's franchise and ownership you can fly into Europe now and not just to Fraggle rock and back.
As for the service...not the crew's fault but half sandwiches and last week no newpapers for Club out of OSL at £600 a ticket.
Still you can only blame BA for pedalling and inferior product in their name.
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Pity about all the bitterness. Not one of you mainline types seems capable of empathy. If you stop and think, none of us BRAL types (as we then were) used to slag off and dislike BA and its management and its employees. We were happy as we were, or if we weren't, then we moved on. Since then, we've been asset stripped, had our LHR slots taken away, and have been turned into a lossmaking company, something that never happened, not once in all the years under under the stewardship of Terry L.
If you blinkered BA people can't see why we are hacked off, then you actually deserve our pity, as well as our contempt - no wonder you're so cr@p at CRM!!.
"I'm all right Jack...." is the constant, reliable repetitive theme which you put out. Aren't you supposed to be taught DODAR?
Do you remember what the first 'D' stands for? and the 'R'??
If you applied that wee pnemonic to the BACX situation and thought about the lack of even handedness (ie the relative value of 3 daily primetime LHR slots as compared to a lot of VERY expensive leases on obsolete RJs) when you compare what was done to us as opposed to CFE - you might see where we're coming from - but I doubt it. I suppose you lot thought DAan Air were treated fairly as well!
If you blinkered BA people can't see why we are hacked off, then you actually deserve our pity, as well as our contempt - no wonder you're so cr@p at CRM!!.
"I'm all right Jack...." is the constant, reliable repetitive theme which you put out. Aren't you supposed to be taught DODAR?
Do you remember what the first 'D' stands for? and the 'R'??
If you applied that wee pnemonic to the BACX situation and thought about the lack of even handedness (ie the relative value of 3 daily primetime LHR slots as compared to a lot of VERY expensive leases on obsolete RJs) when you compare what was done to us as opposed to CFE - you might see where we're coming from - but I doubt it. I suppose you lot thought DAan Air were treated fairly as well!
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no wonder you're so cr@p at CRM!!.
The response to what started as a bit of general info has proved the point.
Bit like Liverpool's reaction to Boris. The reaction proves the point that people are making.
Shame. I'm sure its a minority.
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A takeover of any company has winners and losers, also it can be a very unsettling experience for all concerned.
The mudslinging between parties here is not going to achieve anything other than bitterness.
BACX is a seperate company, its merger between bral and brymon was not a happy one from the start, there were many bases different a/c types salary scales, etc etc.
When BA made a corperate decision right or wrong to centre its mainline operation at heathrow it disrupted a great many pilots lives, the regional operation was to be operated by a different company (BACX) and so an attempt was made to give some people their lives back by joining this company on secondment.
The takover of CityFlyer express was very very different. It was a stable company operating from a london mainline base (its only base) and it did make sense to integate the operation within BA.
The pilots at CityFlyer did fall on their feet at BA but however it was not without problems. Some pilots did not reach required standards when being re-trained, those over the age of 55 had other issues, others were bitter over command prospects because of being placed on the bottom of the seniority list.
If you were to intigrate BACX into mainline BA it would create a far worse situation for company and pilots (both sides). BA would be faced with the a multi basing policy which is costly on mainline scales. The BACX pilots may not get any further commands because they would be at the bottom of the list and victims of a seniority system. Also the training issues that happened with Cityflyer may happen again which would be in nobodys interest.
The costs and disruption to mainline could be huge.
Now by keeping BACX as a seperate regional airline its problems are distanced from the main core business. People must realise it is NOT BA.
If you wish to join BA then i suggest you apply and go through the selection. If you wish to stay in the regions and get an earlier command then stay with BACX.
The two groups need to talk more and understand each other more. BA branding at BACX does give it credibility with the traveling public, so on the back of this a good company with its own career structure can be built.
All this bitterness is only distructive.
Bluepilot
The mudslinging between parties here is not going to achieve anything other than bitterness.
BACX is a seperate company, its merger between bral and brymon was not a happy one from the start, there were many bases different a/c types salary scales, etc etc.
When BA made a corperate decision right or wrong to centre its mainline operation at heathrow it disrupted a great many pilots lives, the regional operation was to be operated by a different company (BACX) and so an attempt was made to give some people their lives back by joining this company on secondment.
The takover of CityFlyer express was very very different. It was a stable company operating from a london mainline base (its only base) and it did make sense to integate the operation within BA.
The pilots at CityFlyer did fall on their feet at BA but however it was not without problems. Some pilots did not reach required standards when being re-trained, those over the age of 55 had other issues, others were bitter over command prospects because of being placed on the bottom of the seniority list.
If you were to intigrate BACX into mainline BA it would create a far worse situation for company and pilots (both sides). BA would be faced with the a multi basing policy which is costly on mainline scales. The BACX pilots may not get any further commands because they would be at the bottom of the list and victims of a seniority system. Also the training issues that happened with Cityflyer may happen again which would be in nobodys interest.
The costs and disruption to mainline could be huge.
Now by keeping BACX as a seperate regional airline its problems are distanced from the main core business. People must realise it is NOT BA.
If you wish to join BA then i suggest you apply and go through the selection. If you wish to stay in the regions and get an earlier command then stay with BACX.
The two groups need to talk more and understand each other more. BA branding at BACX does give it credibility with the traveling public, so on the back of this a good company with its own career structure can be built.
All this bitterness is only distructive.
Bluepilot
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Blue
Good post.
The CFE situation is totally different to the BACX one.
For one CFE brought a large jet fleet route network and LGW slots. BACX did not.
They do, however, now benefit from BA's brand (although its not done very well in service or reliability- check out the daily cancellations in MAN) as well as BA's shiny terminal facilites and infrastructure, web site, ticketing and marketing.
The pilots get jet ratings and a far superior route structure.
On the downside they are sujected to some of our managers!
BTSM
Good post.
The CFE situation is totally different to the BACX one.
For one CFE brought a large jet fleet route network and LGW slots. BACX did not.
They do, however, now benefit from BA's brand (although its not done very well in service or reliability- check out the daily cancellations in MAN) as well as BA's shiny terminal facilites and infrastructure, web site, ticketing and marketing.
The pilots get jet ratings and a far superior route structure.
On the downside they are sujected to some of our managers!
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Dicksynormous...modest aren't we!!
In response I would like to point out that Ndeke is from the Nyanja language spoken predominantly in the Central and Eastern Provinces of Zambia, and is spelled correctly. Whilst on the subject of spelling, I couldn't help but notice the following from your post;
Bitchin should be bitching,
lifes should be lives,
your should be you're,
loose should be lose.
Sorry, but you did bring it up.
Anyway, yes, we are owned by BA, and we are trained to their SOPs and standards, and so I don't think it unreasonable to expect to be given priority over someone applying from outside the BA umbrella, assuming I wanted to fly for mainline. I would have thought that this would make sense to BA as well as we are a known quantity to them.
It seems odd to me that we are considered good enough when we are flying the BA flag and selling the brand to BA standards throughout the UK and Europe, and might I add, more punctually, but we are not considered to be anything other than your average joe when trying to progress our careers through the parent company. Please remember that as far as passengers are concerned, we are BA, and so if we let them down, as would befit our lowly status, then the whole BA image is let down, mainline's as well. Morale is so low in this company that I am surprised that it hasn't shown already. And yet crews still pull together to fly disruptions and their days off, indeed management have even been phoning them at home to do just that, to keep the company afloat, whilst not having had a payrise AT ALL for at least 4 years. And please don't be tempted to go down the "BACX pilots are not of the high standard of mainline pilots" as has been suggested in the past. I have personally witnessed a BA 747 400 make three attempts to land at Lusaka Intl Airport off a visual approach, each time being too high and "hammerheading" on the turn to final, ( rwy 10). On the third and final attempt, the aircraft hammerheaded again and was forced to bank approximately 30 or so degrees OVER THE THRESHOLD to realign itself with the runway, landing about halfway down and stopping on the far numbers with reverse still engaged. About 200 spectators who had gathered to watch were absolutely silent. So no, they are not infallible either.
I think what PontiusPilot says encapsulates what we ex Brymon and BRAL types feel, and he does speak the truth. Personally I don't see why BA don't manage this whole sorry affair with a little more sensitivity, and indeed, even panache. Rather than be a thorn in the side, it should be beneficial. I would have thought that BACX would be the perfect training ground for pilots who wished to progress to mainline ( and also vice versa for those senior types who wished to return to fly in the regions or continue past the BA 55yr retirement age. ) BA would be getting pilots with some experience rather than a 200 hour cadet. The cadets on the other hand would get to fly "hands on" aircraft on 4 - 5 fairly high frequency and high workload sectors a day and build invaluable experience........and probably enjoy it too, rather than watch the Bus autoland after an autopilot flown 2 hour sector. I guess I'm just too naive. I just find it so frustrating to see BA squander such a good company and the opportunity to to enhance and build upon its own presence. I don't understand why someone in Rod Eddington's position doesn't take a closer look at what is going on. Surely he owes it to his shareholders? Damn, there's that naivety again! Instead, like myself, people are voting with their feet in droves, and moving on to different pastures. This will cost BA more in lost experience and face than it will ever save by marginalising BACX.
IMHO you understand!!
In response I would like to point out that Ndeke is from the Nyanja language spoken predominantly in the Central and Eastern Provinces of Zambia, and is spelled correctly. Whilst on the subject of spelling, I couldn't help but notice the following from your post;
Bitchin should be bitching,
lifes should be lives,
your should be you're,
loose should be lose.
Sorry, but you did bring it up.
Anyway, yes, we are owned by BA, and we are trained to their SOPs and standards, and so I don't think it unreasonable to expect to be given priority over someone applying from outside the BA umbrella, assuming I wanted to fly for mainline. I would have thought that this would make sense to BA as well as we are a known quantity to them.
It seems odd to me that we are considered good enough when we are flying the BA flag and selling the brand to BA standards throughout the UK and Europe, and might I add, more punctually, but we are not considered to be anything other than your average joe when trying to progress our careers through the parent company. Please remember that as far as passengers are concerned, we are BA, and so if we let them down, as would befit our lowly status, then the whole BA image is let down, mainline's as well. Morale is so low in this company that I am surprised that it hasn't shown already. And yet crews still pull together to fly disruptions and their days off, indeed management have even been phoning them at home to do just that, to keep the company afloat, whilst not having had a payrise AT ALL for at least 4 years. And please don't be tempted to go down the "BACX pilots are not of the high standard of mainline pilots" as has been suggested in the past. I have personally witnessed a BA 747 400 make three attempts to land at Lusaka Intl Airport off a visual approach, each time being too high and "hammerheading" on the turn to final, ( rwy 10). On the third and final attempt, the aircraft hammerheaded again and was forced to bank approximately 30 or so degrees OVER THE THRESHOLD to realign itself with the runway, landing about halfway down and stopping on the far numbers with reverse still engaged. About 200 spectators who had gathered to watch were absolutely silent. So no, they are not infallible either.
I think what PontiusPilot says encapsulates what we ex Brymon and BRAL types feel, and he does speak the truth. Personally I don't see why BA don't manage this whole sorry affair with a little more sensitivity, and indeed, even panache. Rather than be a thorn in the side, it should be beneficial. I would have thought that BACX would be the perfect training ground for pilots who wished to progress to mainline ( and also vice versa for those senior types who wished to return to fly in the regions or continue past the BA 55yr retirement age. ) BA would be getting pilots with some experience rather than a 200 hour cadet. The cadets on the other hand would get to fly "hands on" aircraft on 4 - 5 fairly high frequency and high workload sectors a day and build invaluable experience........and probably enjoy it too, rather than watch the Bus autoland after an autopilot flown 2 hour sector. I guess I'm just too naive. I just find it so frustrating to see BA squander such a good company and the opportunity to to enhance and build upon its own presence. I don't understand why someone in Rod Eddington's position doesn't take a closer look at what is going on. Surely he owes it to his shareholders? Damn, there's that naivety again! Instead, like myself, people are voting with their feet in droves, and moving on to different pastures. This will cost BA more in lost experience and face than it will ever save by marginalising BACX.
IMHO you understand!!
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ndeke,
you speak wise words but only at the end of the post about leaving. I can asure you bad as it is my english spelling is it is far superior than my nyanja.(some of it was poor punctuation and grammar by the waybut thanks for pointing it out).
BA bought a regional operation and want to kep it that way.Pilots and all. The known qantity theory may just be the thing that is working against you; and the logic that you may represent a better pilot product than a cadet doesnt apply to their recruitment model. Equally, the fantasy : let rod the sensible manager come to the rescue :is just that ,a fantasy. This is because the words sensible and manager are in the same sentence and they dont care. You and I are ten a penny mate.Well you more you than me i'll wager but lets save that for another arguement (oops immodesty creeping in)
It may be applicable in the matey matey bush background i'm sure we both share but not here.Is bacx your first right seat (read real job)after your atpl conversions? it kind of sounds like it.Not meant to be offensive but it does back up your nieve theory.
As for one bad event in a 747 yeah ok that means they are all sh1te. Do you carry the can for all cx pilots that screw up?
Bottom line bacx is in effect just a franchise handing over the profits to BA.
Now as for you being sarcastic about my modesty at what point in my first post was i being immodest.just saying what i see. I have risen to the occasion in this one though.
For me i'm happy flying by big shiney jet and i too have won some and lost some with big companies cest la vie.
for now nothing i like more than reeducating the ex cx 146 drivers that have joined us on proper use of the sby alti , and real energy management. Now thats being immodest (designed to wind up for the sarcastically challenged). Maybe we'll meet, then you can enlighten me and show me how to spell when you are filling out the voyage report for me to sign.
(ps dont get too stressed if i've upset you its just a forum for geeks, regional atlimeter settings are important .....honest)
Kwaheri ,
The sandwiches still need work.
you speak wise words but only at the end of the post about leaving. I can asure you bad as it is my english spelling is it is far superior than my nyanja.(some of it was poor punctuation and grammar by the waybut thanks for pointing it out).
BA bought a regional operation and want to kep it that way.Pilots and all. The known qantity theory may just be the thing that is working against you; and the logic that you may represent a better pilot product than a cadet doesnt apply to their recruitment model. Equally, the fantasy : let rod the sensible manager come to the rescue :is just that ,a fantasy. This is because the words sensible and manager are in the same sentence and they dont care. You and I are ten a penny mate.Well you more you than me i'll wager but lets save that for another arguement (oops immodesty creeping in)
It may be applicable in the matey matey bush background i'm sure we both share but not here.Is bacx your first right seat (read real job)after your atpl conversions? it kind of sounds like it.Not meant to be offensive but it does back up your nieve theory.
As for one bad event in a 747 yeah ok that means they are all sh1te. Do you carry the can for all cx pilots that screw up?
Bottom line bacx is in effect just a franchise handing over the profits to BA.
Now as for you being sarcastic about my modesty at what point in my first post was i being immodest.just saying what i see. I have risen to the occasion in this one though.
For me i'm happy flying by big shiney jet and i too have won some and lost some with big companies cest la vie.
for now nothing i like more than reeducating the ex cx 146 drivers that have joined us on proper use of the sby alti , and real energy management. Now thats being immodest (designed to wind up for the sarcastically challenged). Maybe we'll meet, then you can enlighten me and show me how to spell when you are filling out the voyage report for me to sign.
(ps dont get too stressed if i've upset you its just a forum for geeks, regional atlimeter settings are important .....honest)
Kwaheri
, The sandwiches still need work.
Last edited by dicksynormous; 21st Oct 2004 at 22:26.