British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1

[bluepilot]

Hunterboy, thats a good point but mute, the fact that BA made BACON, Openskies etc pilots go through selection (before making OS pilots redundant WHILST still hiring for mainline) forces their hand. If BMI pilots get integrated without any selection process for mainline BA would be sued to the ying yang!

For those in the holding pool i would not be concerned, this is going to take years to sort out and in the meantime BA mainline still needs pilots.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Kempus, BA "express" would be the end of legacy T&Cs in BA. The BA BALPA CC are working hard to convince IAG to complete an integration of the two airlines that would see BMI pilots come in on present BA pay and conditions. I'm junior, I would rather lose a few years in the wait for the LHS than see the end of the BA pilot contract as it stands. BA is an airline that is very much based on jam tomorrow - there will be no jam if BMI are re-formed as BA Express. The integration of seniority between the two pilot groups will be a huge issue and there will be winners and losers.

All of this will be decided in the new year, BA pilots have a big decision to make that will affect all those currently working for BA/BMI and every pilot who joins in the years to come. I hope we make the right call.

Happy Christmas all.

[Kempus]

Bmrr, that's why I said an "express" would be best for those already employed like yourself but then Nigelondraft's second point becomes all so more relevant. If IAG can do it to Iberia, what makes Ba immune?

I like to look at both sides of an argument in order to make a sound conclusion and yes it will take "years" but, with the sale to be concluded by 1st quarter and bmi losing money like putting petrol in a V12, how long do honestly think IAG will continue to supplement the "fat" of bmi. Redundancies, integration and new contracts may appear quicker than you and I would like. The unionised Ba pilot body will make that decision and that's when you gotta ask yourself, do you protect your progression and your career, protect those selected to follow in your footsteps in order to prevent the eroding of T&C's which plague the industry or accept the greater goodwill to aSll mankind and hope that Europe see's growth of more than 1% over the next few years and it'll be all right jack and we can all play along nicely.

As I said I enjoy a disscussion as it gets minds going and opens up avenues that some may have never considered. Personally, I'm still keeping my water wings on till ba pop them!


Re reading your post you've said pretty much the same. 0420 alarms on Christmas eve I can do without. Who goes out, you decide!(in a Geordie accent)

[binsleepen]

Hi all,

As I understand it BMI are just becoming another company under the IAG group umberella. Therefore the hiring and firing of one company has no legal relevence to another i.e. if Iberia were to down size, its pilots could not expect a job at BA and the same will apply to BMI. Moral obligations are another matter.

In the banking world Halifax would be free to recruit even if Bank of Scotland were laying people off, and they are part of the same group. Workers at one company might get a free pass to the interview stage at the recruiting company but would join at the bottom of the seniority list (if they had one).

There seems to be a consensus that the BA T&Cs are better than BMI mainline. Is this the case? I thought the reason that BMI is bankrupt is down to excessive costs including wages? If not would BMI pilots accept a reduction in conditions?

As bluepilot said I also think this will take years to complete. The cost savings will initially come from:

　
Bmi mainline to bring significant synergies through:
•cost synergies via elimination of overhead, scale benefits and more efficient use of slots
•revenue synergies via optimisation of the expanded network, enhanced customer offering

I am, as always, happy to be corrected.

All the best

and a merry christmas and a prosperous new year to all

[no sponsor]

Binsleepin:

Your facts are not correct, based on recent internal emails sent to BA pilots in the last few days.

[Full Left Rudder]

No sponsor - for those of us considering our position with respect to joining BA, please would you mind filling us in on the theme of the content of these internal emails?

Would be greatly appreciated as I try to make the right decision for my family.

[Fate Hunter]

Will be interesting to see where us FPP cadets end up once out of training as well, given we have been told that we will be on mainline Ts & Cs, and on cadet rates up to PP7. I would have thought BA would want cadets to continue into the BA mainline workforce to maintain the balance of demographics, and furthermore mainline payscales are not massively out-of-kilter with market (unlike IB).

Not that either us or those in the hold pool have much leverage though...

Selection wouldn't be an option and if you think the bmi guys will allow balpa to let it happen well good luck. It's always been nicknamed British Airways Line Pilots Association and this will be the true test of the union to wether they are as biased as many pilots from other airlines think.

Dan-Air guys all faced BA selections

[spider_man]

All WW wants out of the deal is the slots for expansion of BA LH routes from LHR (the slots themselves being traded with other airlines to optimize schedules). BMI mainline has its own legacy airline costs, and I'm not convinced its operating costs will be sufficiently lower than BA mainline to warrant running two parallel operations from one hub with a "BA Express" type operation.

I think the BMI aircraft and slots will gradually pass over to BA mainline to fuel its expansion, rather than the other way. Crews? who knows. Probably an invitation for selection to mainline or voluntary redundancy.

[NigelOnDraft]

I see BA proper as working on the Ts and Cs currently enjoyed

Mmmm, cannot see that happening Bearing in mind we (BA) are having to agree to (yet to be stated) reductions in T&Cs just to be allowed the chance (not certainty) to integrate with bmi.

"British Airways PLC Contract Of Employment (DEP)" and then later the name Company= British Airways PLC

I would hope that has subsequently changed... bearing in "British Airways plc" does not exist

I cannot see BA integrating BMI pilots into mainline without selection

Whether bmi and BA pilots are integrated or not, the bmi slots need to be flown, else they are lost. There is no way BA pilots/aircraft could fly them without years of recruitment / purchases. I personally do not see bmi pilots going through any "selection" process myself - if they are to be integrated, it will be done in a relatively short timescale.

the fact that BA made BACON, Openskies etc pilots go through selection

BACON / OS were never part of the LHR mainline operation... When CF were taken over / bought we took all their pilots I believe without "selection". Unless we did, we could not have maintained their operation ex-LGW.

All WW wants out of the deal is the slots for expansion of BA LH routes from LHR .... I think the BMI aircraft and slots will gradually pass over to BA mainline to fuel its expansion

In case you have not noticed, bmi aircraft are almost entirely SH (and I suspect the 330s will go farly soon). So not sure your 2 statements add up? Personally, I believe either:
1. bmi (Mainline) integrate entirely, and as soon as possible or
2. bmi become "BA Express" and grow as BA whithers. No need for the customer necessarily to know the difference, and no reason why BA Express does not expand into LH.

Just what someone without a job waiting for a sim slot wants to hear...

I cannot see any of the options I outlined being anything than good T&Cs when compared to some others out there... Might not be what we currently have. I cannot, however, see the bmi purchase as possibly a bit negative for recruitment for a while?

[bluepilot]

"BACON / OS were never part of the LHR mainline operation"

er nor are BMI.....at the moment, the fact is that BA has stated that ALL pilots must go through selection (this was the reason given to the OS pilots), even though mainline were recruiting they made these pilots redundant if not "selected" for mainline. If BA do not impose this on other pilot bodies (and lets face it BMI pilots are a complete unknown to the mainline HR dept) then the OS pilots have a very strong legal case, possibly even the BACON pilots too.

I understand that it was due to "training issues" with some former CF pilots that this policy was introduced, personally i think its rubbish and it would have been very simple to allow OS , BACON and now BMI pilots to access mainline, however HR are very powerful and have to justify their position

[B-HVY]

It might not exist as the "former pre-IAG entity" but it is still there somewhat:
Registered office:
British Airways Plc,
Waterside,
PO Box 365,
Harmondsworth,
UB7 0GB.
Registered in England: 1777777.
VAT number: 222452988.
Member of IATA & AEA.

Either that or ba.com is telling porkies of some sort...

P.S. not trying to contradict you NoD, just reporting the existence of BA Plc as still being in the public domain, I am not sure of the real implications of it anyway.

[Heffer]

BACON / OS were never part of the LHR mainline operation... When CF were taken over / bought we took all their pilots I believe without "selection". Unless we did, we could not have maintained their operation ex-LGW.

The difference between OS and others listed (BACON/CF/Dan-air/Bcal) is the fact that BA directly recruited all 25 of the pilots it recently made redundant in late 2007/early 2008 - OS itself didn't really exist until summer 2008. BA used its own experienced pilot recruitment team, HR people, etc. Selection was all run by BA and the only exception to the current DEP criteria was the 20 minute computer testing and written maths/verbal paper. A high percentage of their trainers had been TRE's or had held senior training management positions within mainline - all its pilots had been a known quantity from the start.

But, if my understanding is correct, it's instead OK for unknowns to drop into your airline and to fly your aircraft when a schedule has to be maintained?

[Fate Hunter]

You will recall that after BA set up Openskies, they purchased L'Avion, and the French AOC was thereafter maintained. Having set Openskies up as a known quantity, many of the original retired ex-BA trainers and crew left, and with L'Avion crew and a different AOC, more than half of what now remains is probably not what BA mainline would describe as a known quantity.

The bmi AOC is not going to be estinguished overnight (regardless of type, the crews are not trained on BA procedures), and neither will any integration be overnight. bmi will exist for a while even if the aircraft are rapidly repainted.

Also, a plc can remain if the debt is listed (which it is at BA) - it affects the disclosure / reporting requirements

[NigelOnDraft]

B-HVY...

Thanks for that. I may be wrong over BA plc, but a "plc" I thought was a public company with traded shares. All BA shares went into IAG...

Also any form of "Corporate Governance" seems to be unclear for BA itself, when compared to previous years e.g. Link

So anyone who can add as to "what" British Airways is I'd be interested

[757_Driver]

the fact that BA made BACON, Openskies etc pilots go through selection (before making OS pilots redundant WHILST still hiring for mainline) forces their hand. If BMI pilots get integrated without any selection process for mainline BA would be sued to the ying yang!

I'm intrigued? Under what law / legislation do you think that they could sue BA?
Or are you of the gordon brown 'entitlement' generation that seems to think employees have a devine right to pretty much everything?

[bluepilot]

757, it comes under the discrimination legislation. However as i said before i think its all b**l&X , its HR justifying their existance.

Oh and Gordon Brown? i dont think so ! My politics are right wing of Alexander the great!

[BugSpeed]

Nice to see the thread is nicely on track.......................

[Fiesler02]

Day 1 invitation

Fat dog,
do you know when these guys got the invitation email?
I received the yes email in August and I am still waiting for day 1 invitation....i'm becoming a little worried....
Thanks

[flyer19832007]

Fiesler,

Im still waiting for day one as well, not to worried, the longer the wait the better..... More jet time for me :-)

Keep holding on :-) sure they will get round to us eventually....just more time to brush up ;-)

[Hushhushhush]

New day one days will probably be sent out in January for interviews in February, that's what HR told me when I phoned them.

Good luck to all.