European Aviation Problems (Merged)
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As an ex-eac employee I would like to thank everybody for their kind words and help. Yes, we've all had a winge and quite rightly so and it does make us feel good to know that we have friends out there trying to keep up our spirits. Some of your comments have been amusing and that also helps. However, DelseyDiner I bet I beat you to the phone on Monday's Richard & Judy show.
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ex-european website
Havana,
I second it - if you dont mind doing it, it is a fab idea and it will keep you out of mischief. How long do you think it would take to set the site up? (not being techo minded that's why I ask)
Alan Daborn:
Air Atlanta tel: 01293 602273 - I spoke to them on wednesday and they said all interview dates were full at present but should be scheduling another date and would get back to me. But just to check I am not missing anything at Hilton, I will call the hotel and check what events they are holding there.
LegallyBlonde - you may be getting a 'special letter' if you are about to go on maternity leave.
I second it - if you dont mind doing it, it is a fab idea and it will keep you out of mischief. How long do you think it would take to set the site up? (not being techo minded that's why I ask)
Alan Daborn:
Air Atlanta tel: 01293 602273 - I spoke to them on wednesday and they said all interview dates were full at present but should be scheduling another date and would get back to me. But just to check I am not missing anything at Hilton, I will call the hotel and check what events they are holding there.
LegallyBlonde - you may be getting a 'special letter' if you are about to go on maternity leave.
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Hey again,
Well, I've been through a company going into receivership before, so here's a bit of info about the process.
It is when a company CEASES trading altoghether and or (voluntarily or otherwise) goes into receivership that you follow the course of claiming wages back from the government.
This is not the case here. European is still trading and is NOT in receivership (yet), it seems they are in a voluntary agreement, and continue to employe a number of staff to help it restructure. Therefore, as a company that continues to trade and is not in receivership, your wages will need to be paid by European. It's been a few years since I was last in the UK, but from what I remember they have an obligation to pay you 'pay in lieu of notice', as well as statutory redundancy (although I believe that the statutory minimum for redundancy applies only if you have at least 2 years continuous service?).
As I understand it, the legal situation would be that European is making you redundant, and will need to pay you a weeks pay in lieu of notice for each year of service as well as statutory minimum redundancy for each year of service if you have more than 2 years employment.
European sending you the goverment forms is confusing unless they are planning on calling in the receivers which apparently they are not. These forms are usually to be used only when an official receiver is called in. An official receiver looks at whether it is in the best interest of the creditors to run all or part of the business in situ, whether to see all or part of the operating business, or (and what is more commonplace) what assests can be liquidated to free up cash to pay the creditors. Usually though, the amount of money freed up from assets falls quite a long way short of paying off all the creditors.
European will owe money to the Inland Revenue for unpaid National Insurance contributions and taxes. The IR automatically get the first chunk of the cake. Then, any creditors that are secured (e.g. A creditor who maintains title on an aircraft/piece of equipment etc) will get their chunk. Then general suppliers. Finally, other creditors including of course the staff. By this point the cake is pretty much gone, but there is some recourse to (capped) wage recoup from the goverment through the NI programme. That's the forms you all have. But you don't need them (yet, at least) as European is still trading. If European does ultimately appoint a receiver or it's creditors foreclose, then you will need those forms.
I think this kind of explains it, not to lecture y'all (!!), but too much information is better than none at all right?!
Good Luck again with getting your money back, and also in getting back to the skies soon,
Well, I've been through a company going into receivership before, so here's a bit of info about the process.
It is when a company CEASES trading altoghether and or (voluntarily or otherwise) goes into receivership that you follow the course of claiming wages back from the government.
This is not the case here. European is still trading and is NOT in receivership (yet), it seems they are in a voluntary agreement, and continue to employe a number of staff to help it restructure. Therefore, as a company that continues to trade and is not in receivership, your wages will need to be paid by European. It's been a few years since I was last in the UK, but from what I remember they have an obligation to pay you 'pay in lieu of notice', as well as statutory redundancy (although I believe that the statutory minimum for redundancy applies only if you have at least 2 years continuous service?).
As I understand it, the legal situation would be that European is making you redundant, and will need to pay you a weeks pay in lieu of notice for each year of service as well as statutory minimum redundancy for each year of service if you have more than 2 years employment.
European sending you the goverment forms is confusing unless they are planning on calling in the receivers which apparently they are not. These forms are usually to be used only when an official receiver is called in. An official receiver looks at whether it is in the best interest of the creditors to run all or part of the business in situ, whether to see all or part of the operating business, or (and what is more commonplace) what assests can be liquidated to free up cash to pay the creditors. Usually though, the amount of money freed up from assets falls quite a long way short of paying off all the creditors.
European will owe money to the Inland Revenue for unpaid National Insurance contributions and taxes. The IR automatically get the first chunk of the cake. Then, any creditors that are secured (e.g. A creditor who maintains title on an aircraft/piece of equipment etc) will get their chunk. Then general suppliers. Finally, other creditors including of course the staff. By this point the cake is pretty much gone, but there is some recourse to (capped) wage recoup from the goverment through the NI programme. That's the forms you all have. But you don't need them (yet, at least) as European is still trading. If European does ultimately appoint a receiver or it's creditors foreclose, then you will need those forms.
I think this kind of explains it, not to lecture y'all (!!), but too much information is better than none at all right?!
Good Luck again with getting your money back, and also in getting back to the skies soon,
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As European haven't yet got around to formally notify some of their creditors or consulted their 'yes' or 'no' on the voluntary agreement proposal (which a majority of creditors must agree) there could still be some time to wait for any final direction to be clear...I understand information to creditors has apparently been handled as poorly as to staff...both creditors I know, one owed in excess of $100K and the other over $300K, have only been kept informed by speaking to the staff members at European whom were their usual contact (when they find them and/or if they are still there)
..and some of these creditors are getting very angry
..and some of these creditors are getting very angry
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Message board
Web site set up now, it is only a message board, you will need to register first
http://eaac.proboards3.com/
I hope the Admin at Pprune don't mind this.
H
http://eaac.proboards3.com/
I hope the Admin at Pprune don't mind this.
H
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Sad
It's sad that European has gone down. The higher management really did not appreciate how hard the staff tried to work to keep everything running smothly. When people didn't get paid months ago the poor people in HR had to sit there for hours on end stuffing envelopes and working their guts out because of errors higher up in the company.
I feel so sorry for all the cabin crew who had a letter send to them telling them they had no job.
I used to work there and you were told if something needed doing you would basically have to stay until it was done. The staff really worked well together and got through these troubles, but there is only so much you can take. I remember the cigar smoke drifting downstairs from the "fat cats" meetings. Luckily I found another job and saw light at the end of the tunnel.
I hope everyone who lost their jobs manages to find a good job where you are treated with the respect and recognition you deserve. You are better off out of there!
I feel so sorry for all the cabin crew who had a letter send to them telling them they had no job.
I used to work there and you were told if something needed doing you would basically have to stay until it was done. The staff really worked well together and got through these troubles, but there is only so much you can take. I remember the cigar smoke drifting downstairs from the "fat cats" meetings. Luckily I found another job and saw light at the end of the tunnel.
I hope everyone who lost their jobs manages to find a good job where you are treated with the respect and recognition you deserve. You are better off out of there!
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A sad day...
As I understand the legal position, EAAC are in the process of seeking a voluntary agreement with their creditors. As a mean of demonstrating their intentions to restructure, they have laid off a significant number of staff, without following the law with regard to redundancy.
Until such time as ALL creditors (INCLUDING STAFF) agree, they are still a trading company, with all the liabilities that ensue. Any creditor, including a staff member, is legally entitled to seek a winding up order to force the situation.
I fear the staff will be stuck in Limbo until such time as :-
(1) EAAC feel they have enough money to pay their creditors, by means of some arrangement ( in the staff case, an agreed amount in lieu of salary/notice etc) or
(2) One of the creditors (including the staff) feel they would be better off issuing a winding up order, on the basis that the liquidation of the comnpany ( including the repayment of any or all loans by the company to Minardi) would provide them with a better payout than the voluntary agreement.
I'm not sure how anyone could get access to the Loan Details mentioned earlier, but it strikes me that there is a lot of " stuff" going on in the background and a measured decidion by the creditors will be difficult without a lot more details.
This could drag out for a while, and that is the last thing the restructured EAAC need, as business confidence is required if they are even to keep the Bath Travel work.
It's going to be a bit of a slog guys and girls......best of luck
As I understand the legal position, EAAC are in the process of seeking a voluntary agreement with their creditors. As a mean of demonstrating their intentions to restructure, they have laid off a significant number of staff, without following the law with regard to redundancy.
Until such time as ALL creditors (INCLUDING STAFF) agree, they are still a trading company, with all the liabilities that ensue. Any creditor, including a staff member, is legally entitled to seek a winding up order to force the situation.
I fear the staff will be stuck in Limbo until such time as :-
(1) EAAC feel they have enough money to pay their creditors, by means of some arrangement ( in the staff case, an agreed amount in lieu of salary/notice etc) or
(2) One of the creditors (including the staff) feel they would be better off issuing a winding up order, on the basis that the liquidation of the comnpany ( including the repayment of any or all loans by the company to Minardi) would provide them with a better payout than the voluntary agreement.
I'm not sure how anyone could get access to the Loan Details mentioned earlier, but it strikes me that there is a lot of " stuff" going on in the background and a measured decidion by the creditors will be difficult without a lot more details.
This could drag out for a while, and that is the last thing the restructured EAAC need, as business confidence is required if they are even to keep the Bath Travel work.
It's going to be a bit of a slog guys and girls......best of luck
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What I See
Hello there
I too have lost my job, and today was my last day in BOH; this is what i know and in no way is offical.
EAAC have not gone bust, nor are they in liquidation, they are under administration. This means they can continue to operate under very strict rules and in a extremely streamlined fashion.
HR have indeed sent letters out to us, if you haven't received them yet then its Royal Mail's fault. This letter will have enclosed a form to be completed, which is to be returned to EAAC where the administration will process it.
We should receive what is owed to us, as was explained to me payment upto the 17th of March, any notice period stated on your contract, plus any outstanding holiday entitlement until the 31st of March. I am not crew and therefore do not know about FDP. If you have been employed continuously for 2 years i believe you are entitled to Statutory redundancy payment.
From what i gather 2 747's will be leaving EAAC, and the rest will be positioned at cost effective locations. 2 737's will operate along with approx 100 staff (in total not just crew!), hopefully with a busy summer and a following wind it might just save EAAC.
I have to admit i am annoyed at the readiness to blame "the management", and many of you blame PGS. This is wrong, if you want a target to focus your anger on then blame Stephen Woodland; installed as COO during the buy-out. The truth is out there is all i can say at this time...
A post was submitted to PPrune which some caught a glimpse of, this was posted to by someone from EAAC with some informative details; aimed to answer some of our questions. Pprune deleted it as they might well delete mine.
One thing i can tell you is that the remaining staff are genuinely as gutted as we are, but they are committed to the task at hand; keeping EAAC operating. As one person said "we started small, we grew, things got messed up, we cut back and come back stronger".
We all lost something this week, all i can say is I wish you all the best of luck, and it was a pleasure working with/for you guys & girls.
Ps: As you can see Havana has set up a message board, i think we should all move to there and give ol' Pprune a rest
If this is not to your taste then if i receive enough requests i will try my best to build another chat forum like we had on the Extranet.
I too have lost my job, and today was my last day in BOH; this is what i know and in no way is offical.
EAAC have not gone bust, nor are they in liquidation, they are under administration. This means they can continue to operate under very strict rules and in a extremely streamlined fashion.
HR have indeed sent letters out to us, if you haven't received them yet then its Royal Mail's fault. This letter will have enclosed a form to be completed, which is to be returned to EAAC where the administration will process it.
We should receive what is owed to us, as was explained to me payment upto the 17th of March, any notice period stated on your contract, plus any outstanding holiday entitlement until the 31st of March. I am not crew and therefore do not know about FDP. If you have been employed continuously for 2 years i believe you are entitled to Statutory redundancy payment.
From what i gather 2 747's will be leaving EAAC, and the rest will be positioned at cost effective locations. 2 737's will operate along with approx 100 staff (in total not just crew!), hopefully with a busy summer and a following wind it might just save EAAC.
I have to admit i am annoyed at the readiness to blame "the management", and many of you blame PGS. This is wrong, if you want a target to focus your anger on then blame Stephen Woodland; installed as COO during the buy-out. The truth is out there is all i can say at this time...
A post was submitted to PPrune which some caught a glimpse of, this was posted to by someone from EAAC with some informative details; aimed to answer some of our questions. Pprune deleted it as they might well delete mine.
One thing i can tell you is that the remaining staff are genuinely as gutted as we are, but they are committed to the task at hand; keeping EAAC operating. As one person said "we started small, we grew, things got messed up, we cut back and come back stronger".
We all lost something this week, all i can say is I wish you all the best of luck, and it was a pleasure working with/for you guys & girls.
Ps: As you can see Havana has set up a message board, i think we should all move to there and give ol' Pprune a rest
If this is not to your taste then if i receive enough requests i will try my best to build another chat forum like we had on the Extranet.
Last edited by Badger Badger Badger; 19th Mar 2004 at 20:49.
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jmc-man, if you wish to find out about the loan to Minardi, go to the Companies House web site, search for European Aviation Air Charter on the free websearch, Pay your £4 and get a copy of the last full accounts that were filed (Dec 2001).
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Badger,
Thanks for the clarification. That , hopefully, makes it clear to those people who lost their job, where they stand.
Those left behind to keep EAL alive have a monumental challnge, and I hope they rise to it.
Thanks for the clarification. That , hopefully, makes it clear to those people who lost their job, where they stand.
Those left behind to keep EAL alive have a monumental challnge, and I hope they rise to it.
aka Capt PPRuNe
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A post was submitted to PPrune which some caught a glimpse of, this was posted to by someone from EAAC with some informative details; aimed to answer some of our questions. Pprune deleted it as they might well delete mine.
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Badger
You're talking nonsense. Everyone who has been employed in aviation knows that European has made people redundant before, it's almost a yearly thing and this was before Stephen Woodland was involved although I agree Stephen Woodland is the one who needs putting in the stocks this time.
Anyone who is interested in finding out more about this latest shambles should go to www.thisisbournemouth.co.uk/ which will show tonight's Daily Echo site and you'll learn a few truths.
It brought a lump to my throat when I read that stoddy was in tears when he made the announcement. Yeh, crocodile tears. He stated that this was the worst day of his life, what about the rest of us who can no longer pay our bills. Stoddy get back to Oz where you belong we don't need your sort over here. Leave aviation to those who know what they are doing.
You're talking nonsense. Everyone who has been employed in aviation knows that European has made people redundant before, it's almost a yearly thing and this was before Stephen Woodland was involved although I agree Stephen Woodland is the one who needs putting in the stocks this time.
Anyone who is interested in finding out more about this latest shambles should go to www.thisisbournemouth.co.uk/ which will show tonight's Daily Echo site and you'll learn a few truths.
It brought a lump to my throat when I read that stoddy was in tears when he made the announcement. Yeh, crocodile tears. He stated that this was the worst day of his life, what about the rest of us who can no longer pay our bills. Stoddy get back to Oz where you belong we don't need your sort over here. Leave aviation to those who know what they are doing.
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It has taken for me a few days to sink in. I worked for European in the operations department leaving late last year. When I left it seemed the company was growing larger and from what I thought stronger. New investment and new ideas seemed to be arriving. But due personal unhappiness in my job I thought it best to move on. This news has me gutted for all the crew and ops staff I worked with over the years and I hope they find something else soon.
BUT WHY?!?
The company always seemed to have financial troubles first with the 1-11 being phased out then Sep 11th. Which caused redundancies on both occassions, but within months it seemed people we re-employed when the sticky patch came to a end.
It makes me think why money always seemed tight? Was it mis-management or PGS interest in his cars? Was the biggest mistake of all the 747s? I remember the day XH arrived on a murky day in BOH. You could see the pride on everyone faces. The six month of hard work seemed all worth while. It always amazed me the amount of work and effort that went into the AOC, but like always we got the job done.
As an airline it was always ran on "good will" rather then good planning. The good will came to an end when the "new batch" of staff arrived for the 747. The crew were mainly ex BA and Virgin and I dont think they realised the concept of a Charter airline, especially European...
Taxis instead of hire cars, business instead of economy travel, payments for days off all pushed costs higher and higher. This had a domino effect with the 737 crews also demanding more from a company which did not have the resources to meet the new demands. Along with ACMI rates lowering after Sep 11th, I can see why financial problems occured.
The change of Director of operations I also feel had a detremental effect on the airline (jobs for the boys comes to mind) It only took a few weeks to realise he was not up to the task in hand.
Finally who should be held responsible PGS or TCD and SW? The original contract for SFB was set up by broker contracted to EAAC, who in my opinion only had the lining of his pockets in mind (hence the days notice of termination) The JED contract in 2002/3 with saudi was also set up by a contracted broker, which again cost more than it was worth.
I never thought PGS would ever sell up, but did TCD have the final say either sell for less than the markert price or lose our business??? And now hundreds of people are paying the price.
Have the right staff been left to sort out this mess? only time will tell, there is always hope.
Hopefully it will all come out, but as always with European you will be the last to know.
The Gimp
BUT WHY?!?
The company always seemed to have financial troubles first with the 1-11 being phased out then Sep 11th. Which caused redundancies on both occassions, but within months it seemed people we re-employed when the sticky patch came to a end.
It makes me think why money always seemed tight? Was it mis-management or PGS interest in his cars? Was the biggest mistake of all the 747s? I remember the day XH arrived on a murky day in BOH. You could see the pride on everyone faces. The six month of hard work seemed all worth while. It always amazed me the amount of work and effort that went into the AOC, but like always we got the job done.
As an airline it was always ran on "good will" rather then good planning. The good will came to an end when the "new batch" of staff arrived for the 747. The crew were mainly ex BA and Virgin and I dont think they realised the concept of a Charter airline, especially European...
Taxis instead of hire cars, business instead of economy travel, payments for days off all pushed costs higher and higher. This had a domino effect with the 737 crews also demanding more from a company which did not have the resources to meet the new demands. Along with ACMI rates lowering after Sep 11th, I can see why financial problems occured.
The change of Director of operations I also feel had a detremental effect on the airline (jobs for the boys comes to mind) It only took a few weeks to realise he was not up to the task in hand.
Finally who should be held responsible PGS or TCD and SW? The original contract for SFB was set up by broker contracted to EAAC, who in my opinion only had the lining of his pockets in mind (hence the days notice of termination) The JED contract in 2002/3 with saudi was also set up by a contracted broker, which again cost more than it was worth.
I never thought PGS would ever sell up, but did TCD have the final say either sell for less than the markert price or lose our business??? And now hundreds of people are paying the price.
Have the right staff been left to sort out this mess? only time will tell, there is always hope.
Hopefully it will all come out, but as always with European you will be the last to know.
The Gimp
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Excuse me butting in on this thread, but I think that the money owed by Minardi is a red herring. Minardi was always pretty much a plaything, and it has no real assets, so any talk of the loan being repaid is fantasy. The cars are curios, and totally uncompetative and worth essentially nothing, the drivers contracts are worth even less, most of Minardis drivers have paid to drive the cars, they are not that good. If the whole team was wound up it might just realise $1,000,000. The only thing of value Minardi has is the right to race in Grand Prix.
Just had a thought though, F1 requires you to put a deposit of several million in some sort of escrow, to ensure that you race the whole season, could the £6 million be that? In which case the money will only become available at the end of the F1 season (september ish) provided that you have entered all races.
Bottom line, forget about Minardi money, if its going to come into the company, it will come by the time you have, hopefully, got another job.
Just had a thought though, F1 requires you to put a deposit of several million in some sort of escrow, to ensure that you race the whole season, could the £6 million be that? In which case the money will only become available at the end of the F1 season (september ish) provided that you have entered all races.
Bottom line, forget about Minardi money, if its going to come into the company, it will come by the time you have, hopefully, got another job.