Am I wrong about all this? Please help!
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Am I wrong about all this? Please help!
Dear all,
I am desperately in need of help here. It’s going to be a long one, therefore, I’d like to give out brief information in the beginning of this letter, just for you to decide whether to read on or not.
I’m currently a 747-400 first officer, on one of my flights, there were different opinion between the captain and I. But as a first officer, I see (or I think I see) something that greatly jeopardizes flight safety, so I filed a report against him, which is one thing I have never done before.
The results I received, was disappointing, not that I wanted to see anyone being punished, but it seems like I was wrong in all this. I plan to file another complain, but I need to have your advices.
On our 12 hour flight from A to B, we were cruising at FL350, and was requested to climb up to FL390, shortly, we were requested to choose from FL310, 370 and 410.
At that exact moment, the captain had his FMC in LEGS page, I had mine in PROGRESS. So I replied ‘standby’.
Before I could blink my eye, captain says ‘we can accept FL410’, I switched to VNAV CRUISE immediately, in which, the MAX showed 409. I brought this to his attention. Immediately, he pointed his finger at me, with an angry tone of voice, said ‘You tell her, we’ll take 410!’
I gave in, as there was no immediate danger.
As we climb, the captain continuously asked me ‘you’re not happy?’, and I gave him ‘no, I’m not’ as an answer. I also mentioned that we’re going to be too close to the buffet margins, and I’m not too comfortable with it. He stated that the FMC is being conservative, and we should be ok.
Finally, we reached FL410. the upper/lower yellow band, was at 262/250. and we were cruising at 260, and most of the time, at 264, inside the yellow band.
Trying to persuade me, the captain went into ‘PERF INIT PAGE’, and modified CRZ CG to 23%. Immediately, the yellow band filled all the speed tape, and A/T went almost idle at the same time. To compensate for this, the captain changed again to 27%.
‘The FMC is being too conservative’, the captain said, He further explained that ‘the CG right now, should be 23%, but the FMC is being too conservative’. My reply was ‘There’s always a reason to be conservative’.
I asked the captain how did he get this figure of 23%? He replied ‘from experience’, being provoked, I said ‘Don’t tell me about “experience”, tell me how did you calculated and how did you come up with this number?’
The only answer I got, was ‘I’ve been flying glass cockpit airplanes since 1984, I know very well about FMC’.
I asked again, ‘if you think 23% is correct, why would you put in 27% instead? Aren’t we lying to the computer?’ The reason for me to have said that, is because that I believe it’s similar to changing gross weight in order to get higher altitude from FMC, not exactly, but similar.
I also stated, ‘Look, we’re now so close to the HI/LO buffet margin, what if we encounter CAT now?’ The captain’s reply was ‘Look outside, it’s clear sky, we’re ok.’ My last response to him that day, other than standard callouts and reading checklists, was ‘They wouldn’t calling it CAT, if it’s only CB related’.
Coming back from B to A the next day, one of the controllers asked us, what was the highest flight level we can accept.
The captain called for the QRH. As polite as I can be, I told him ‘Sure, but please don’t make it so margin like yesterday, ok?’ He turned to me, and replied ‘I’m the captain, I make the final decision, you’ll have to trust me’.
Latter, he asked, ‘Didn’t they ever teach you how to check the performance chart?’ I said ‘yes, but we also have to respect FMC and PFD displays’.
‘Wrong’ he said, showing the QRH in his hand, ‘this is the pilots’ bible, you guys are relying too much on the computer’.
After that, there were no further interacts, except of course, standard callouts and checklists.
I filed a report against the captain, but the response I received, was disappointing, (to me at least) in which, it said:
1) The maximum altitude in the QRH, has already implemented safety margins, therefore it’s safe, and the captain is at no fault.
2) Please correct the first officer, and advice him of the correct concept.
I agree to the 1st part, I have no doubt about it, but it seems like the whole decision making process, was totally ignored, besides, my report stated ‘safety report’, but when I receive the copy, the ‘safety report’ tick box was canceled, instead, it was changed to a regular trip report. I strongly disagree with that, because I think flight safety was greatly jeopardized, besides, here’s what I’m thinking:
1) The captain acted solely upon ‘experience’, without hesitation, nor any calculation whatsoever, before accepting FL410, when FMC shows the maximum as 409, while the situation is nothing close to airplane losing control or losing it’s wing, or anything to that extent, besides, he didn’t even know what the FMC maximum was, because his page was at LEG, and mine was at PROGRESS.
2) Our company’s policy, clearly stated, not to exceed FMC optimum + 2,000’ during normal operations.
3) FMC projected landing fuel was 33.1, and our reserve is 18.3, while there were only 2 hours of flight time left.
4) We were flying inside upper yellow band most of the time all the way before TOD.
5) I have no doubt about the professionalism and ability of the loading department, but there’s always error in loading.
6) If I have the wrong idea about maximum altitude, does that mean we can always fly above the buffet margin?
I, as a first officer, did not see any immediate danger, therefore, I obeyed the captain’s command, while under strong protest.
It’s been bothering me, very much indeed, I have to admit that I don’t have a whole lot of experience in aviation, and I’m no genius when it comes to airplane gimmicks, I’ve only started 747-400 no more than 7 months ago, before that, I flew 737-200, 400 and 800, only 3000 hours were accumulated for the past 5 and a half years.
The way the captain’s been acting, is clashing with my ‘safety and CRM concept’, am I wrong? Am I just being paranoid? Or am I just making a fool out of myself?
Call me a chicken, but when it comes to flight safety, I take that as a compliment.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated, and please give a brief introduction on your background, and please, forgive me for any error in grammar, for English is not my mother language.
Thank you.
Tony Ko
747-400 First Officer
[email protected]
I am desperately in need of help here. It’s going to be a long one, therefore, I’d like to give out brief information in the beginning of this letter, just for you to decide whether to read on or not.
I’m currently a 747-400 first officer, on one of my flights, there were different opinion between the captain and I. But as a first officer, I see (or I think I see) something that greatly jeopardizes flight safety, so I filed a report against him, which is one thing I have never done before.
The results I received, was disappointing, not that I wanted to see anyone being punished, but it seems like I was wrong in all this. I plan to file another complain, but I need to have your advices.
On our 12 hour flight from A to B, we were cruising at FL350, and was requested to climb up to FL390, shortly, we were requested to choose from FL310, 370 and 410.
At that exact moment, the captain had his FMC in LEGS page, I had mine in PROGRESS. So I replied ‘standby’.
Before I could blink my eye, captain says ‘we can accept FL410’, I switched to VNAV CRUISE immediately, in which, the MAX showed 409. I brought this to his attention. Immediately, he pointed his finger at me, with an angry tone of voice, said ‘You tell her, we’ll take 410!’
I gave in, as there was no immediate danger.
As we climb, the captain continuously asked me ‘you’re not happy?’, and I gave him ‘no, I’m not’ as an answer. I also mentioned that we’re going to be too close to the buffet margins, and I’m not too comfortable with it. He stated that the FMC is being conservative, and we should be ok.
Finally, we reached FL410. the upper/lower yellow band, was at 262/250. and we were cruising at 260, and most of the time, at 264, inside the yellow band.
Trying to persuade me, the captain went into ‘PERF INIT PAGE’, and modified CRZ CG to 23%. Immediately, the yellow band filled all the speed tape, and A/T went almost idle at the same time. To compensate for this, the captain changed again to 27%.
‘The FMC is being too conservative’, the captain said, He further explained that ‘the CG right now, should be 23%, but the FMC is being too conservative’. My reply was ‘There’s always a reason to be conservative’.
I asked the captain how did he get this figure of 23%? He replied ‘from experience’, being provoked, I said ‘Don’t tell me about “experience”, tell me how did you calculated and how did you come up with this number?’
The only answer I got, was ‘I’ve been flying glass cockpit airplanes since 1984, I know very well about FMC’.
I asked again, ‘if you think 23% is correct, why would you put in 27% instead? Aren’t we lying to the computer?’ The reason for me to have said that, is because that I believe it’s similar to changing gross weight in order to get higher altitude from FMC, not exactly, but similar.
I also stated, ‘Look, we’re now so close to the HI/LO buffet margin, what if we encounter CAT now?’ The captain’s reply was ‘Look outside, it’s clear sky, we’re ok.’ My last response to him that day, other than standard callouts and reading checklists, was ‘They wouldn’t calling it CAT, if it’s only CB related’.
Coming back from B to A the next day, one of the controllers asked us, what was the highest flight level we can accept.
The captain called for the QRH. As polite as I can be, I told him ‘Sure, but please don’t make it so margin like yesterday, ok?’ He turned to me, and replied ‘I’m the captain, I make the final decision, you’ll have to trust me’.
Latter, he asked, ‘Didn’t they ever teach you how to check the performance chart?’ I said ‘yes, but we also have to respect FMC and PFD displays’.
‘Wrong’ he said, showing the QRH in his hand, ‘this is the pilots’ bible, you guys are relying too much on the computer’.
After that, there were no further interacts, except of course, standard callouts and checklists.
I filed a report against the captain, but the response I received, was disappointing, (to me at least) in which, it said:
1) The maximum altitude in the QRH, has already implemented safety margins, therefore it’s safe, and the captain is at no fault.
2) Please correct the first officer, and advice him of the correct concept.
I agree to the 1st part, I have no doubt about it, but it seems like the whole decision making process, was totally ignored, besides, my report stated ‘safety report’, but when I receive the copy, the ‘safety report’ tick box was canceled, instead, it was changed to a regular trip report. I strongly disagree with that, because I think flight safety was greatly jeopardized, besides, here’s what I’m thinking:
1) The captain acted solely upon ‘experience’, without hesitation, nor any calculation whatsoever, before accepting FL410, when FMC shows the maximum as 409, while the situation is nothing close to airplane losing control or losing it’s wing, or anything to that extent, besides, he didn’t even know what the FMC maximum was, because his page was at LEG, and mine was at PROGRESS.
2) Our company’s policy, clearly stated, not to exceed FMC optimum + 2,000’ during normal operations.
3) FMC projected landing fuel was 33.1, and our reserve is 18.3, while there were only 2 hours of flight time left.
4) We were flying inside upper yellow band most of the time all the way before TOD.
5) I have no doubt about the professionalism and ability of the loading department, but there’s always error in loading.
6) If I have the wrong idea about maximum altitude, does that mean we can always fly above the buffet margin?
I, as a first officer, did not see any immediate danger, therefore, I obeyed the captain’s command, while under strong protest.
It’s been bothering me, very much indeed, I have to admit that I don’t have a whole lot of experience in aviation, and I’m no genius when it comes to airplane gimmicks, I’ve only started 747-400 no more than 7 months ago, before that, I flew 737-200, 400 and 800, only 3000 hours were accumulated for the past 5 and a half years.
The way the captain’s been acting, is clashing with my ‘safety and CRM concept’, am I wrong? Am I just being paranoid? Or am I just making a fool out of myself?
Call me a chicken, but when it comes to flight safety, I take that as a compliment.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated, and please give a brief introduction on your background, and please, forgive me for any error in grammar, for English is not my mother language.
Thank you.
Tony Ko
747-400 First Officer
[email protected]
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Tony,
Respectfully, I think you are making a mountain out of ant hill. While the Captain's method are not very tactful and is counter to good CRM practices, seems like he knew what he was doing. Take care and fly safe.
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: SentryIP ]</p>
Respectfully, I think you are making a mountain out of ant hill. While the Captain's method are not very tactful and is counter to good CRM practices, seems like he knew what he was doing. Take care and fly safe.
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: SentryIP ]</p>
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mr snooze would you concider it an over reaqction if it was the other way round and thay were cruising 100 feet bellow LSALT in IMC i dont think so both have lots of margin built in but its still wrong .
Tony
Mate I realy dont know what to tell you but i do agree with you and i think the captain could have handled it a lot better .Do you have any freinds in the company who are pretty high up if so ask them if not you are stuck between a rock and a hard place a bit but i wouldnt let it go
Tony
Mate I realy dont know what to tell you but i do agree with you and i think the captain could have handled it a lot better .Do you have any freinds in the company who are pretty high up if so ask them if not you are stuck between a rock and a hard place a bit but i wouldnt let it go
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A captain, thirty years ago, handed me NTSB reports of accidents over a period of a couple years. I noticed that in an amazing number of times the FO was correct ! But he often paid with his life ! In the last year in a CRM course it was stated that this was true 80% of the time. I decided when I became a Captain not to do anything ( within reason ) that would make a fellow crew member uncomfortable. If a Captain treats a co-pilot as a monkey that is exactly what he will end up flying with because after awhile it is just easier for the co-pilot to give up. We all want to be Captains eventually , most of us are first born and want to be in charge. A definite positive in the case of our job description. If you are telling the complete truth, which I think you are, the captain over reacted. As I told a Captain once , " You have become the type of Captain that you once complained about." Hang in there Mate. In any group 10% are real jerks. Usually in aviation it is only 5%.
Tony.
I think you did the right thing. If you have a concern, you have a responsibility to make them known to the captain.
Although there was little risk of the aircraft falling out of the sky (as you have acknowledged), the captain did put you in an awkward situation, and showed some disrespect for you and the position of F/O.
I've got 7000hrs jet time and 4500hrs as F/O on the B733. Don't undersell yourself. You've got more than enough experience to have an informed opinion.
It's apparent to me that it wasn't the 100ft that overly concerned you. It was rather the captain's attitude to CRM and conflict resolution, and how it might have a greater consequence during a more critical situation. Fair enough I reckon.
Of course captains are ultimately resposible for the disposition of the flight and that they have a wealth of knowledge and experience. Still, I think that they should consider where the F/O is comming from. F/O's are only trying to keep the captain's paperwork to an absolute minimum!, and deserve a reasonedexplaination as to why the captain has decided to operate outside Standard Company Procedures, even though in his/her personal opinion it is safe to do so.
It's just common courtesy isn't it?
I think you did the right thing. If you have a concern, you have a responsibility to make them known to the captain.
Although there was little risk of the aircraft falling out of the sky (as you have acknowledged), the captain did put you in an awkward situation, and showed some disrespect for you and the position of F/O.
I've got 7000hrs jet time and 4500hrs as F/O on the B733. Don't undersell yourself. You've got more than enough experience to have an informed opinion.
It's apparent to me that it wasn't the 100ft that overly concerned you. It was rather the captain's attitude to CRM and conflict resolution, and how it might have a greater consequence during a more critical situation. Fair enough I reckon.
Of course captains are ultimately resposible for the disposition of the flight and that they have a wealth of knowledge and experience. Still, I think that they should consider where the F/O is comming from. F/O's are only trying to keep the captain's paperwork to an absolute minimum!, and deserve a reasonedexplaination as to why the captain has decided to operate outside Standard Company Procedures, even though in his/her personal opinion it is safe to do so.
It's just common courtesy isn't it?
Cunning Artificer
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That FMC Tony, its just a computer and a very crude one at that. It works out lets say max cruise height for example, from the input data it gets from a very limited system environment. Learn to distrust computers and learn procedures from each captain that you fly with. Thats what they're there for. If you disagree about something by all means ask questions, as you are doing here but try not to go too far. So what if you had one of those Captains who isn't too hot on giving explanations? Accept the result of your report and go forward.
I'm not a pilot, I'm an avionics specialist and I wouldn't trust an FMC as far as I can throw it. You seem to have the book theory figured out pretty well, perhaps too well. You can't do anything about the Captain's communication skills but now its time to work on your own CRM.
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[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Blacksheep ]</p>
I'm not a pilot, I'm an avionics specialist and I wouldn't trust an FMC as far as I can throw it. You seem to have the book theory figured out pretty well, perhaps too well. You can't do anything about the Captain's communication skills but now its time to work on your own CRM.
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[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Blacksheep ]</p>
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Tony,
You did exactly the right thing in questioning climbing to an altitude that by any standard, FMC or QRH was dubious at best.
I personally cannot see the benefit whatsoever in
pushing/ exceeding QRH or book limits in any respect, whats the point?
Regardless of anyone else's opinion, the day you stand by and let yourself be intimidated by another pilot, regardless of his position in the company or support by management, is the day you might as well take off your headset and go and sit in the cabin.
You did exactly the right thing in questioning climbing to an altitude that by any standard, FMC or QRH was dubious at best.
I personally cannot see the benefit whatsoever in
pushing/ exceeding QRH or book limits in any respect, whats the point?
Regardless of anyone else's opinion, the day you stand by and let yourself be intimidated by another pilot, regardless of his position in the company or support by management, is the day you might as well take off your headset and go and sit in the cabin.
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Tony
The CRZ CG on the PERF page defaults to 8.5%. The actual CG is dependent on the LIZFW and the amount of fuel in the centre tank. For the conditions that you describe, the actual CG would be 22%-23% which would increase the MAX ALT by about 800ft. Many airlines provide a graph to calculate the actual CG.
The figure that you obtained from your QRH is probably the 1.3g Buffet Margin, which allows a bank of 48 degrees before the onset of the pre-stall buffet. While climbing to the MAX ALT is not ideal, it is not dangerous in certain circulstances and there are various safeguards built into the FMS calculations.
I think that there are CRM issues on both sides here. Perhaps the captain could have explained his thinking more clearly, although on a positve note, he did sense your unease and ask you if you were unhappy. However the fact that you said to him, "Don't tell me about experience", might have compomised future communication between the two of you.
I suggest that, rather than write to management, you sit down with this guy over a couple of pints of beer (preferably Boddingtons) and ask him to give you the benefit of his experience. You might even get to like each other.
Airclues
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Captain Airclues ]</p>
The CRZ CG on the PERF page defaults to 8.5%. The actual CG is dependent on the LIZFW and the amount of fuel in the centre tank. For the conditions that you describe, the actual CG would be 22%-23% which would increase the MAX ALT by about 800ft. Many airlines provide a graph to calculate the actual CG.
The figure that you obtained from your QRH is probably the 1.3g Buffet Margin, which allows a bank of 48 degrees before the onset of the pre-stall buffet. While climbing to the MAX ALT is not ideal, it is not dangerous in certain circulstances and there are various safeguards built into the FMS calculations.
I think that there are CRM issues on both sides here. Perhaps the captain could have explained his thinking more clearly, although on a positve note, he did sense your unease and ask you if you were unhappy. However the fact that you said to him, "Don't tell me about experience", might have compomised future communication between the two of you.
I suggest that, rather than write to management, you sit down with this guy over a couple of pints of beer (preferably Boddingtons) and ask him to give you the benefit of his experience. You might even get to like each other.
Airclues
[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Captain Airclues ]</p>
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Thank you all for the advice, either those who think I'm right, or wrong, I take all the postings as something I'd learn, and to think about in other aspects.
Mabe I'm not making myself clear, or it could be just too detailed in my first posting. But, CRM in this case, was not my main concern, although the issue exists. Believe me, I've gone through the good old days of 'slapping, shouting, yelling and insulting', among other things you might not even have heard, in the beginning of my flying days as a line pilot here in my country. I guess if a captain treats me like a monkey, I certainly can live with it. If I've survived through gunshots, I wouldn't care about paper cuts.
My points were, and still are, the decision making process and the safety concept.
First of all, I know that in the QRH, or whatever approved manual, leaves certain safety margin. And the logic of FMC, is simply 'garbage in, garbage out', and it has limited ability. That, I understand.
But with my limited knowledge, I truely believe that whatever we do, there should be something to back us up.
For instance, if tower controller asked me whether we can accept intersection takeoff, can I just accept it simply based on my 'experience'? Or do I have to check with the RAM in order to have hard proof evidence? I respect experience from anyone, but please prove it instead of acting on split second instinct.
What would anyone say about a pilot taking off without checking with loadsheet? Can any pilot in this world, simply have all the passengers and luggages and cargo containers, to form in one line, and with 'experience', guess the weight? I know this is a bit too extreme, but you get the idea.
Can we simply act and decide when you have no idea what kind of FL you can accept? Not even before you check the QRH and the FMC? That, was my point.
Like I've mentioned, it's my first safety report, ever, against anyone. I have no intention to have someone being punished or receiving demerits. I don't tell on people simply because I don't like him nor his attitude.
The 'good old days of slapping, yelling and shouting' are over, CRM has been implimented, but of course, like anything else in this world, there's always room for improvement, I accept that, therefore, the attitude or CRM process of this captain, wasn't much of my concern.
My concern was, under flight safety concept, how the(or any) decision is made, unless I have the wrong idea about safety.
Although I'm not anti-autority, acting solely upon experience, accpting FLs which you don't even know, changing your CG without any calculation, is just not right.
I'm NOT trying to seek advice on whether I should fight back or not, instead, I'm just trying to find out my stand point, despite whether I'm being to paranoid or not, I'd like to know if my idea of safety was correct.
Because appearantly, the company thinks the captain is at no fault, and it was me, who needs to be adviced of 'correct concept'. Which simply means that in normal operations, it's ok that we can fly within yellow band without a good reason, and we can act solely upon experience to accept FLs, when we have no idea about the limits.
It takes me all the way back when I was 10, during my first day at school in the United States, trying to figure out what the teacher or classmates were trying to tell me, when my English ability at that time, was 0.
I really appreciate all your postings, no matter what, they help me to think in different aspects. Any further discussion and/or advices, is greatly welcomed.
Thank you again.
Tony
Mabe I'm not making myself clear, or it could be just too detailed in my first posting. But, CRM in this case, was not my main concern, although the issue exists. Believe me, I've gone through the good old days of 'slapping, shouting, yelling and insulting', among other things you might not even have heard, in the beginning of my flying days as a line pilot here in my country. I guess if a captain treats me like a monkey, I certainly can live with it. If I've survived through gunshots, I wouldn't care about paper cuts.
My points were, and still are, the decision making process and the safety concept.
First of all, I know that in the QRH, or whatever approved manual, leaves certain safety margin. And the logic of FMC, is simply 'garbage in, garbage out', and it has limited ability. That, I understand.
But with my limited knowledge, I truely believe that whatever we do, there should be something to back us up.
For instance, if tower controller asked me whether we can accept intersection takeoff, can I just accept it simply based on my 'experience'? Or do I have to check with the RAM in order to have hard proof evidence? I respect experience from anyone, but please prove it instead of acting on split second instinct.
What would anyone say about a pilot taking off without checking with loadsheet? Can any pilot in this world, simply have all the passengers and luggages and cargo containers, to form in one line, and with 'experience', guess the weight? I know this is a bit too extreme, but you get the idea.
Can we simply act and decide when you have no idea what kind of FL you can accept? Not even before you check the QRH and the FMC? That, was my point.
Like I've mentioned, it's my first safety report, ever, against anyone. I have no intention to have someone being punished or receiving demerits. I don't tell on people simply because I don't like him nor his attitude.
The 'good old days of slapping, yelling and shouting' are over, CRM has been implimented, but of course, like anything else in this world, there's always room for improvement, I accept that, therefore, the attitude or CRM process of this captain, wasn't much of my concern.
My concern was, under flight safety concept, how the(or any) decision is made, unless I have the wrong idea about safety.
Although I'm not anti-autority, acting solely upon experience, accpting FLs which you don't even know, changing your CG without any calculation, is just not right.
I'm NOT trying to seek advice on whether I should fight back or not, instead, I'm just trying to find out my stand point, despite whether I'm being to paranoid or not, I'd like to know if my idea of safety was correct.
Because appearantly, the company thinks the captain is at no fault, and it was me, who needs to be adviced of 'correct concept'. Which simply means that in normal operations, it's ok that we can fly within yellow band without a good reason, and we can act solely upon experience to accept FLs, when we have no idea about the limits.
It takes me all the way back when I was 10, during my first day at school in the United States, trying to figure out what the teacher or classmates were trying to tell me, when my English ability at that time, was 0.
I really appreciate all your postings, no matter what, they help me to think in different aspects. Any further discussion and/or advices, is greatly welcomed.
Thank you again.
Tony
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This job is mostly about getting along with the other guy. You wouldn't be there if you didn't have the ability. It is possible that both of you were safety-wired to the pissed-off position for what ever reason. Learn from the experience. You are the only one who clearly understands what happened, and you have to be honest with yourself in thinking deeply about what could have been done differently on your part. You cannot change the way the Captain thinks, but you can be the best F/O in your operation by being able to work with any type of Captain. If he doesn't feel threatened by you, he will naturally consult you for you points of view.
Solve the problem at the lowest possible level....that might be the best way.
Solve the problem at the lowest possible level....that might be the best way.
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I feel that the subject has gone off course, it's true that CRM on my part wasn't too great.
But, that 100' isn't playing so great a role in all this, but rather, the decision making process. I don't care what the captain think of me when he did that, no one's perfect, and I'm not, either. What I care about, is:
Should we make decisions solely based upon 'experience', before even checking?
That was it.
It's true, my response to that, wasn't perfect, as I felt being provoked. But beleive it or not, I had nothing against the captain, everything before that, was just smooth as silk, we had chit chat and everything, all under friendly situation.
I don't understand why would I be a threat to the captain? Was it because of my disagreement?
From some of the post, I understand that my reaction could have worsen the whole situation, I have to admit to that. And clearly protested against him, this type of thing, is not often seen here, especialy, when there're language barrier between foreign captains and local first officers.
Of course, there's no way I can change the way the captain's attitude or communication skills, and I have no intention of changing that either.
The only thing I can do, is to readjust myself to it, and practice better CRM. But while doing that, isn't safety still safety? Isn't procedures still procedures?
Once again, it's not about that 100', I know the plane won't just fall off the sky; And it's not about his attitude toward me, 'cause we all have things to learn in CRM, and I've been yelled, insulted and slapped at during my early year in aviation, and I kept them all to myself, so it's not about that.
Thanks guys, each and everyone of your postings have been helpful, really.
Regards,
Tony
But, that 100' isn't playing so great a role in all this, but rather, the decision making process. I don't care what the captain think of me when he did that, no one's perfect, and I'm not, either. What I care about, is:
Should we make decisions solely based upon 'experience', before even checking?
That was it.
It's true, my response to that, wasn't perfect, as I felt being provoked. But beleive it or not, I had nothing against the captain, everything before that, was just smooth as silk, we had chit chat and everything, all under friendly situation.
I don't understand why would I be a threat to the captain? Was it because of my disagreement?
From some of the post, I understand that my reaction could have worsen the whole situation, I have to admit to that. And clearly protested against him, this type of thing, is not often seen here, especialy, when there're language barrier between foreign captains and local first officers.
Of course, there's no way I can change the way the captain's attitude or communication skills, and I have no intention of changing that either.
The only thing I can do, is to readjust myself to it, and practice better CRM. But while doing that, isn't safety still safety? Isn't procedures still procedures?
Once again, it's not about that 100', I know the plane won't just fall off the sky; And it's not about his attitude toward me, 'cause we all have things to learn in CRM, and I've been yelled, insulted and slapped at during my early year in aviation, and I kept them all to myself, so it's not about that.
Thanks guys, each and everyone of your postings have been helpful, really.
Regards,
Tony
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This is without doubt the best Thread that I've read on this site, with the input coming from what appears to be very knowledgeable / professional people.
A refreshing change......
Ps, Tony your English is very good, best of luck.... <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
A refreshing change......
Ps, Tony your English is very good, best of luck.... <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
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Hi Tony
Taking this example I would rather fly with somebody who thinks like you than the other guy.
I think FL 370 would have been a fair compromise.
It's why the right seat is a great place to learn,good and bad.
I was told of an example like this where the cruise FO's accepted too high a level and they ended up getting stick shaker at the next turn.(B767)
Taking this example I would rather fly with somebody who thinks like you than the other guy.
I think FL 370 would have been a fair compromise.
It's why the right seat is a great place to learn,good and bad.
I was told of an example like this where the cruise FO's accepted too high a level and they ended up getting stick shaker at the next turn.(B767)
Just another number
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Tony
If the FMS shows FL 409 as the MAX ALT, then the aircraft with autopilot and VNAV engaged will level at FL409. Any attempt to climb above FL 409 by disengaging the autopilot will change the pitch mode to V/S. Changing the CG is a legitimate method of obtaining an accurate MAX ALT. From the conditions that you describe, with no centre tank fuel, the CG would be about 23% (from experience).
You stated the pages that were selected when the ATC request was made. If you need to wait until the request is made then you are not thinking ahead of the aircraft. At any stage of the flight you should know the MAX ALT, as well as the 3-eng driftdown height, the MSA and the nearest alternate. The pilot who says 'standby' when asked if he can climb is the one who is flying with his aircraft rather than ahead of it.
However, if any of my colleagues were unhappy about a climb decision, then I would explain my thinking to them, and consider the alternatives. If they were still unhappy then I would change my decision and descend, as I might need the guys advice at a later stage, and I would want it to be forthcoming.
If we are assigning CRM points here, then I think that the two of you are about equal. It is a shame that the captain was not prepared to give you the benefits of experience, but I have certain doubts about your attitide to him. I have been flying the 747 for 27 years. Some of my knowledge was obtained from books, and some by experience. I hope that I am able to pass on some of the experience, just like the previous generation did to me. I'm sure that most captains feel the same, please just give them a chance.
Airclues
If the FMS shows FL 409 as the MAX ALT, then the aircraft with autopilot and VNAV engaged will level at FL409. Any attempt to climb above FL 409 by disengaging the autopilot will change the pitch mode to V/S. Changing the CG is a legitimate method of obtaining an accurate MAX ALT. From the conditions that you describe, with no centre tank fuel, the CG would be about 23% (from experience).
You stated the pages that were selected when the ATC request was made. If you need to wait until the request is made then you are not thinking ahead of the aircraft. At any stage of the flight you should know the MAX ALT, as well as the 3-eng driftdown height, the MSA and the nearest alternate. The pilot who says 'standby' when asked if he can climb is the one who is flying with his aircraft rather than ahead of it.
However, if any of my colleagues were unhappy about a climb decision, then I would explain my thinking to them, and consider the alternatives. If they were still unhappy then I would change my decision and descend, as I might need the guys advice at a later stage, and I would want it to be forthcoming.
If we are assigning CRM points here, then I think that the two of you are about equal. It is a shame that the captain was not prepared to give you the benefits of experience, but I have certain doubts about your attitide to him. I have been flying the 747 for 27 years. Some of my knowledge was obtained from books, and some by experience. I hope that I am able to pass on some of the experience, just like the previous generation did to me. I'm sure that most captains feel the same, please just give them a chance.
Airclues