Flying slowly? PLEASE tell us!!!
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Flying slowly? PLEASE tell us!!!
Please please guys, if you have an operational requirement to fly below a certain speed then tell ATC when you call on frequency!!!
Reason I ask is that we ATCO's are not mind readers, and the flight plan usually doesn't tell us!! More and more now, we are having to sequence aircraft at intermediate levels for the next controller, especially if inbound to Luton or Stansted. Having done the job for quite a while now, I know approximately how fast a 737 usually flies, and it's not very helpful when you have formulated a plan in your head to find out that the aircraft you vectored to be number one is then unable to maintain 300kts or more with 3 others up his chuff!!!!
I know there was a thing about 737NGs flying at 270kts when de-iced or something, and -credit to those crews- you did mostly tell us, but I'm talking more about crews flying slowly so they don't get to the gate before the ground staff. Please tell me if you want to fly at 250kts in descent in a 747, don't just do it and hope I won't notice!!!
Reason I ask is that we ATCO's are not mind readers, and the flight plan usually doesn't tell us!! More and more now, we are having to sequence aircraft at intermediate levels for the next controller, especially if inbound to Luton or Stansted. Having done the job for quite a while now, I know approximately how fast a 737 usually flies, and it's not very helpful when you have formulated a plan in your head to find out that the aircraft you vectored to be number one is then unable to maintain 300kts or more with 3 others up his chuff!!!!
I know there was a thing about 737NGs flying at 270kts when de-iced or something, and -credit to those crews- you did mostly tell us, but I'm talking more about crews flying slowly so they don't get to the gate before the ground staff. Please tell me if you want to fly at 250kts in descent in a 747, don't just do it and hope I won't notice!!!
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Does this mean we are expected to fly fast appraoches each time?
Surely 250 below FL100 and then 210 within 15Nm, reducing to stabilise the approach should be planned. SAFETY first (not high speed to keep low cost carriers going).
I know we must all work together but this tends to legalise the hooligan element!
Surely 250 below FL100 and then 210 within 15Nm, reducing to stabilise the approach should be planned. SAFETY first (not high speed to keep low cost carriers going).
I know we must all work together but this tends to legalise the hooligan element!
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we ATCO's are not mind readers
Neither are we, when you are told to keep high speed, and as soon as you change freq the next controller says 'speed 160 to the marker'
I sometimes think that you controllers dont speak to each other !
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Ok all, maybe I should have said that I'm not an approach controller (although I did say intermediate levels), i'm more bothered about you lot who fly at 250kts during the descent from crusing level to FL150-ish without telling me.
I accept that safety has to come first, and in that context its not very safe to not tell me your 747 is flying at 250kts when I'm expecting it to be doing 310kts, so that the RJ100 behind you thats flying at the normal 290kts gets a nice view of your rear end.
I accept that safety has to come first, and in that context its not very safe to not tell me your 747 is flying at 250kts when I'm expecting it to be doing 310kts, so that the RJ100 behind you thats flying at the normal 290kts gets a nice view of your rear end.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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Slightly off topic but as someone mentioned low cost carriers....
Is there a taxi speed limit - other than the POH or company SOPs?
I have noticed that certain (!) airlines taxi at considerably higher speeds than the larger carriers such as BA and VA... does this cause GMC any problems with estimating crossing priorities and give way to... ?
Yes, before anyone says it, I know it is difficult to judge speeds but it is easy to see that certain airlines taxi considerably faster than others!
Is there a taxi speed limit - other than the POH or company SOPs?
I have noticed that certain (!) airlines taxi at considerably higher speeds than the larger carriers such as BA and VA... does this cause GMC any problems with estimating crossing priorities and give way to... ?
Yes, before anyone says it, I know it is difficult to judge speeds but it is easy to see that certain airlines taxi considerably faster than others!
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In my airline we usually leave the 250/10000 in the FMC at busy times but at off peak periods we will ask you if you wish us to follow standard speeds and then adjust the profile accordingly. As far as I know none of our pilots fly high speed below 10,000 OR low speed above without telling you.
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Thank you 737man, but as I previously said, I am talking about crews flying 250kts on airways when I would expect them to be flying faster- nothing to do with speed limits, approach charts or anything below 10,000ft.
It's just that I got hammered recently and in the midst of 10 aircraft that all arrived on frquency in a nice big bunch was a 747 dawdling along at 250kts -unbeknown to me- and it took a 45 degree turn to prevent separation being lost with the following BAe 146 which was obscured on the radar by other traffic above.
I'm not one for imposing unecessary speed restrictions as I know that the next controller may have a different plan, so I left the 747 to do it's own thing thinking it would be flying at 300kts plus, as 747s usually do. Had I known that said 747 was actually flying slower than usual, I wouldn't have come close to filling in paperwork.
I know you guys have lots to do during descent, but please try and inform us if you're doing anything nonstandard.
BRING BACK FAM FLIGHTS!!!!
It's just that I got hammered recently and in the midst of 10 aircraft that all arrived on frquency in a nice big bunch was a 747 dawdling along at 250kts -unbeknown to me- and it took a 45 degree turn to prevent separation being lost with the following BAe 146 which was obscured on the radar by other traffic above.
I'm not one for imposing unecessary speed restrictions as I know that the next controller may have a different plan, so I left the 747 to do it's own thing thinking it would be flying at 300kts plus, as 747s usually do. Had I known that said 747 was actually flying slower than usual, I wouldn't have come close to filling in paperwork.
I know you guys have lots to do during descent, but please try and inform us if you're doing anything nonstandard.
BRING BACK FAM FLIGHTS!!!!
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"so that the RJ100 behind you thats flying at the normal 290kts" I didn't know a RJ100 could!
I realise your talking about upper sector work- but arriving into STN the other night we where told to keep 300kts or greater all the way down- change over to essex radar- back to 220kts and take a tour of essex. Surely it would be better to slow us up earlier and waste less fuel?
I realise your talking about upper sector work- but arriving into STN the other night we where told to keep 300kts or greater all the way down- change over to essex radar- back to 220kts and take a tour of essex. Surely it would be better to slow us up earlier and waste less fuel?
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Strange I should find this thread......I was going to post something similar myself.Tonight I had 2 aircraft from the same company fly two aircraft in totally different ways.Number one slowed right down "there is a 40 knot headwind here!" Number 2,6 miles behind and catching quickly seemed to be unaffected by the headwind!.Puzzled radar controller
.
Do you guys have different rules regarding intermediate approach speeds?
Do you have an SOP regarding WHEN you slow down(except for below FL 100)? .
I ask because as my oppo Atco matic has said we no longer have the benefit of Fam Flights and I have never had the benefit of observing what Go's on! Easy to see what I mean huh?.As an ATCO of quite a few years I am finding it more and more difficult (in the approach environment ) to work out what is a reasonable distance to put between aircraft(I dislike having to use speed control as I prefer the aircraft to fly it's own MOST economical profile) if one flys 75/80 knots faster than the same type ahead. As it turned out the second aircraft had to be given a few extra track miles...no big deal but every little helps.
.Do you guys have different rules regarding intermediate approach speeds?
Do you have an SOP regarding WHEN you slow down(except for below FL 100)? .
I ask because as my oppo Atco matic has said we no longer have the benefit of Fam Flights and I have never had the benefit of observing what Go's on! Easy to see what I mean huh?.As an ATCO of quite a few years I am finding it more and more difficult (in the approach environment ) to work out what is a reasonable distance to put between aircraft(I dislike having to use speed control as I prefer the aircraft to fly it's own MOST economical profile) if one flys 75/80 knots faster than the same type ahead. As it turned out the second aircraft had to be given a few extra track miles...no big deal but every little helps.
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Our Company SOP is to fly at the FMS generated speed unless there is a good reason not to. However on a short route (eg MAN-LHR) filed at say FL190, The FMS Cruise speed will be high, about 325 KIAS. At Top of Drop the new descent speed can drop to around 275 KIAS resulting in Cream Tea in the seat pocket and controller head-scratching.
So, the MAN flight going through 'BNN25, 150 or below' will be at 275 KIAS whereas the EDI flight, same type etc., will be doing about 310 KIAS. There used to be a memo out a few years ago on the 737 fleet about manually changing the FMS generated DES speed to be the same as the CRZ speed when flying a low-level route, but I don't think this has filtered through to the A320 yet.
Pilotwolf: 30 KTS straight, 20 in the bends. V. accurate speedo on board derived from FMS!
So, the MAN flight going through 'BNN25, 150 or below' will be at 275 KIAS whereas the EDI flight, same type etc., will be doing about 310 KIAS. There used to be a memo out a few years ago on the 737 fleet about manually changing the FMS generated DES speed to be the same as the CRZ speed when flying a low-level route, but I don't think this has filtered through to the A320 yet.
Pilotwolf: 30 KTS straight, 20 in the bends. V. accurate speedo on board derived from FMS!
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Don't you have those predictive vector thingies that show you clearly who is doing what? I saw these on a video of a Scottish radar screen presentation after I complained about being punted out of the way to allow a 737 70 miles behind to get to the runway first (but that is another story!)
Many pilots do not necessarily fly at a "standard" speed on descent, nor are they required to; believe it or not most airlines still allow captains some discretion when it comes to slowing down a bit. Possible reasons could include:
Technical problems
Pressurisation difficulties
Turbulence
Cabin crew struggling to get cleared up
Holding ahead (or rumours thereof)
The perils of arriving early (ie no gate, or ramp staff)
As none of the above are emergencies (or even urgent), the current trend to eliminate unnecessary RT may well be why you don't hear more (frustrating as that is for you, I guess).
I kind of thought that they taught controllers to exercise judgement, and I would have thought that part of that included not assuming anything such as descent speeds, but WTFDIK...
If not, maybe we shouild just use TCAS and save a fortune on your salaries...
Many pilots do not necessarily fly at a "standard" speed on descent, nor are they required to; believe it or not most airlines still allow captains some discretion when it comes to slowing down a bit. Possible reasons could include:
Technical problems
Pressurisation difficulties
Turbulence
Cabin crew struggling to get cleared up
Holding ahead (or rumours thereof)
The perils of arriving early (ie no gate, or ramp staff)
As none of the above are emergencies (or even urgent), the current trend to eliminate unnecessary RT may well be why you don't hear more (frustrating as that is for you, I guess).
I kind of thought that they taught controllers to exercise judgement, and I would have thought that part of that included not assuming anything such as descent speeds, but WTFDIK...
If not, maybe we shouild just use TCAS and save a fortune on your salaries...
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RD ....INDEED wthfd you know....I have prediction vectors and I use them ...they tell me a lot BUT the final arbiter in all of this is ME ..MY airspace and I will run as I see fit(although making a 737 70 miles astern of you number 1 does seem a bit rich!and to be honest I am sitting here thinking about relative speeds and catchup and wondering where on earth that happened.....the distances involved must have been either a/ huge or b/ you were in an extremely SLOW aircraft .The 146 isn't that bad is it?
).My judgement ,when I have aircraft approaching the same place at the same time is what determines the order.Surely it is not unreasonable to expect two aircraft flown to the same airport(obviously this is the approach phase when everyone is down at similar levels) by the same company to have a SIMILAR profile?thus assisting in my decision processes. I take on board the possible reasons for it but a little prior warning would help and it is not THAT much extra r/t. However thank you RD,patronising as ever,you imply that my job is so simple ...should we have standard speeds below FL100 and subject to that,long lazy vectors around the sky to acheive the required spacing? 
or can we show a little APPRECIATION of the problems we both face and run the system to all the customers advantage?
BRING BACK FAM FLIGHTS!!
).My judgement ,when I have aircraft approaching the same place at the same time is what determines the order.Surely it is not unreasonable to expect two aircraft flown to the same airport(obviously this is the approach phase when everyone is down at similar levels) by the same company to have a SIMILAR profile?thus assisting in my decision processes. I take on board the possible reasons for it but a little prior warning would help and it is not THAT much extra r/t. However thank you RD,patronising as ever,you imply that my job is so simple ...should we have standard speeds below FL100 and subject to that,long lazy vectors around the sky to acheive the required spacing? or can we show a little APPRECIATION of the problems we both face and run the system to all the customers advantage?BRING BACK FAM FLIGHTS!!
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speeds
Interesting topic - maybe I am slightly off the subject but have a question for ATC's...
When told to maintain a speed of say 300 ias by a contoller then handed over to the next centre - do you continue with the 300 ias (ie does the next ATC know if the previous controller has imposed a speed restriction?)
In practice I have maintained the speed and requested a slow down but have wondered whether it is necessary..
Tks
When told to maintain a speed of say 300 ias by a contoller then handed over to the next centre - do you continue with the 300 ias (ie does the next ATC know if the previous controller has imposed a speed restriction?)
In practice I have maintained the speed and requested a slow down but have wondered whether it is necessary..
Tks
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Well if I had my way (or airline) - but either is relatively unlikely :
I would have a annual requirement for all pilots to spend at least a day/night shift in the tower / approach (radar) rooms and for all ATC Officers to take at least a double sector on the JS.
Not a big deal in cost terms, but it would pay real dividends in so many ways.
DG
I would have a annual requirement for all pilots to spend at least a day/night shift in the tower / approach (radar) rooms and for all ATC Officers to take at least a double sector on the JS.
Not a big deal in cost terms, but it would pay real dividends in so many ways.
DG
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D and Gr
I agree with you-- it should be mandatory. In NZ (I'm now in the UK) we did just that and I think the benefits outweighed any effort spent. I think another factor that I have noted here is that of newbies to jet aircraft-- often very concerned about getting high and fast . I often observe these people slowing VERY early in the decent without good reason. All that is needed is a bit of training and as you say- a bit of thought about what is going on at your end of the operation! This sort of forum can help a lot although spoilt by the patronising attitude of some pilots !
I agree with you-- it should be mandatory. In NZ (I'm now in the UK) we did just that and I think the benefits outweighed any effort spent. I think another factor that I have noted here is that of newbies to jet aircraft-- often very concerned about getting high and fast . I often observe these people slowing VERY early in the decent without good reason. All that is needed is a bit of training and as you say- a bit of thought about what is going on at your end of the operation! This sort of forum can help a lot although spoilt by the patronising attitude of some pilots !
D and Gr and 737man, I quite agree with you that it does people good to see what happens on the other side of the radar screen, and even my 'low cost' company has done this with pilot visits to our local friendly ATC unit. Unfortunately, we are now unable to reciprocate in the current security scene as no-one, and I mean no-one is allowed on the jump seat apart from operating crew. Not positioning crew, company people on standby, or even the Captains family.
In my Company, we like to fly FMC econ speeds. Unfortunately in the NG this can give a speed of 263kts, so we have a standard descent speed for busy airfields of 280 kts.
Our Company procedures forbid us to exceed 250kts below F100, unless specifically requested by ATC. I think, possibly, this 300kts business is more a case of people wanting to get home a couple of minutes earlier - but then I could be wrong!!! There are an awful lot of different types and I doubt an ATR could match a 747 even in the descent at econ speeds.
In my Company, we like to fly FMC econ speeds. Unfortunately in the NG this can give a speed of 263kts, so we have a standard descent speed for busy airfields of 280 kts.
Our Company procedures forbid us to exceed 250kts below F100, unless specifically requested by ATC. I think, possibly, this 300kts business is more a case of people wanting to get home a couple of minutes earlier - but then I could be wrong!!! There are an awful lot of different types and I doubt an ATR could match a 747 even in the descent at econ speeds.
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Atco-matic, thanks for your perspective on this. As it is a couple of years since I flew a 747, then please treat with caution. However as I'm sure you are aware , A large airline operating 747's from LHR is very sensitive about having it's A/C arrive as close to schedule as possible to make ground handling as efficent as poss.The company exerts considerable pressure on those who disobey. Therefore having operated the said 747 all the way from the other side of world, trying to get efficent FL, headwinds, etc, to fly 300 kts in descent as opposed to 250 makes a marginal diff on arrival time. As the cost index in FMC calculates a descent speed of 250-260 knots, then that is normal to us!! We fly it without problems during early morning arrivals, of course the sector is quiter then! Part of the problem lies in the fact that many longhaul crews only do the arrival into LHR twice a month. However on many an occasion, we have elected to descend at 290-300 kts as " it causes problems for ATC" We are keen to assist as much as we can, so just ask us what speed we will be flying and if poss WE WILL COMPLY.
AS a background to this , due to rising fuel costs we are using lower cost indexes(?) or indices(?) which has greatest impact on decent speeds, ie 250 knots!
Hope that helps, as we try to be on the same side!!
As regards fam flights, I'm all in favour and recently(last summer) took a trainee atco from scottish to warsaw on my shiny airbus. We both learnt a lot, not least how close a 747 looks whilst crossing in RVSM at 1000'!!!
Flying shuttle trips this week and will try my best to get the correct speed for each sector!! However I suspect That I shall fail miserably
AS a background to this , due to rising fuel costs we are using lower cost indexes(?) or indices(?) which has greatest impact on decent speeds, ie 250 knots!
Hope that helps, as we try to be on the same side!!
As regards fam flights, I'm all in favour and recently(last summer) took a trainee atco from scottish to warsaw on my shiny airbus. We both learnt a lot, not least how close a 747 looks whilst crossing in RVSM at 1000'!!!
Flying shuttle trips this week and will try my best to get the correct speed for each sector!! However I suspect That I shall fail miserably
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Had to take a Gert Big Bus down to LGW a couple of months ago. Problem was it was about 4 tonnes overweight due to it coming out of maintenance after a fuel leak. The grown ups wanted to defuel it until we explained it would take longer, cost more etc etc. Considered dumping it but thought someone might notice and dob me in and we couldn't be arsssed to organise a dump area route. So we went up to 190 and dirtied and blew the fuel out the tailpipe. Now to the point - I had told ATC what we were doing and why we were at 180kts. One sector failed to tell the next sector south of HON............ The Shamrock RJ came past us quite quickly, I was mildly impressed
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eastern wiseguy
Pity you take that view, that wasn't what I meant at all. I have some good friends who are ATCOs and I appreciate the job they do (and a difficult one it is).
However... I frequently see the same lack of communication from the ATC side. I have lost count of the number of times I have been given a radar vector and told to report it to the next sector, only to be immediately cleared to an eight mile centre fix, or sent off on a completely different heading. Or told by one sector to slow down, and told by the next "no speed". Or told to expedite a climb or descent, but never told when there is no further need for it... etc etc.
I realise there are operational considerations and can guess at what they might be, but all the same, a word of explanation would help us to appreciate the bigger picture- and, to be fair, some ATCOs are fabulously good at doing this.
Another small annoyance you might want to think about, is the way some ATCOs get so very impatient if I don't answer their call the very next second. Believe it or not, we can get busy and if I don't respond immediately, it is probably because something more pressing is occupying my attention- so don't get snotty with me!
And finally... the "final arbiter in all this" is NOT you. the final responsibility for the safety of the flight rests with the aircraft commander, and I will (and have) refuse a clearance if it appears to me to be unsound. You may think pilots patronising, but never forget that we place our lives, and those of our passengers, in you hands... if you screw up, we die, but you get to go home and see it on the news. I expect a little licence to question your methodology for that.
Can we all be friends now?
Pity you take that view, that wasn't what I meant at all. I have some good friends who are ATCOs and I appreciate the job they do (and a difficult one it is).
However... I frequently see the same lack of communication from the ATC side. I have lost count of the number of times I have been given a radar vector and told to report it to the next sector, only to be immediately cleared to an eight mile centre fix, or sent off on a completely different heading. Or told by one sector to slow down, and told by the next "no speed". Or told to expedite a climb or descent, but never told when there is no further need for it... etc etc.
I realise there are operational considerations and can guess at what they might be, but all the same, a word of explanation would help us to appreciate the bigger picture- and, to be fair, some ATCOs are fabulously good at doing this.
Another small annoyance you might want to think about, is the way some ATCOs get so very impatient if I don't answer their call the very next second. Believe it or not, we can get busy and if I don't respond immediately, it is probably because something more pressing is occupying my attention- so don't get snotty with me!
And finally... the "final arbiter in all this" is NOT you. the final responsibility for the safety of the flight rests with the aircraft commander, and I will (and have) refuse a clearance if it appears to me to be unsound. You may think pilots patronising, but never forget that we place our lives, and those of our passengers, in you hands... if you screw up, we die, but you get to go home and see it on the news. I expect a little licence to question your methodology for that.
Can we all be friends now?
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Raw Data wrote
of course it is .....my point related to how I managed my airspace..I thought that was clear.I agree there must be times when you are told to do one thing and the next voice tells you something completely different.That frustrates me too(and I suppose I am equally guilty),although telling a guy your heading is hardly a big deal if he susequently changes it to something which fits HIS plans. In my capacity as an approach controller I find my area colleagues attempting to "assist" me by making inbound aircraft fly at inappropriate(for me ) speeds when the first thing I do is lift the speed restriction.That may confuse you guys up there but it is simply a matter of me being able to use a spacing of three miles whilst the area guy is obliged to maintain,for example ten miles. All I ask for here is a little bit of communication...if you want to fly faster ..fine...you may have to take a few more track miles ....if you can fly slower I may well be able to tighten the sequence and if it is all done properly then everyone has the satisfaction of using the system to its' maximum potential.Every little helps no?
All chums again
And finally... the "final arbiter in all this" is NOT you. the final responsibility for the safety of the flight rests with the aircraft commander,
All chums again