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Need of hand written logbook

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Need of hand written logbook

Old 14th May 2019, 13:45
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Need of hand written logbook

Currently shipping the 737 around and was wondering if a hand paper logbook is still mandatory by law. Many colleagues are only using a electronic one on their phones or IPad. Could not find it it written somewhere. Thanks!
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Old 14th May 2019, 13:53
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It depends on each CAA. As an expat some CAA will give them one of their logbooks for you to fill in when you get a license issued by them. Others will just be happy taking a look at your own logbook, while some others want to see the signature of each instructor that you flew with when you got your first IR twenty years ago, along with the stamp of CTL TWR for each cross country flight.

While navigating around the CAA's with your own logbook is still possible, doing it with an electronic logbook is still a no-no, at least from Istanbul to the East.
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Old 14th May 2019, 14:04
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Can't see the point of even having a logbook nowadays. All the hours can be printed out from the company system and signed by FLT OPS / HR which makes it even more reliable. I personally only use the logbook for recreational SEP flights once in a while and just print out my operator's logged hours signed by somebody in the office whenever I need them.
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Old 14th May 2019, 14:35
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Yeah.. indeed it does not make sense...still can’t find the law to it if you really have to nowadays...
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Old 14th May 2019, 14:40
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FCL.050 Recording of flight time

[...]

INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE

(e) Flight crew logbook entries should be made as soon as practicable after any flight undertaken. All entries in the logbook should be made in ink or indelible pencil.
And once printed, it is indelible ink.

I'm going fully electronic eventually, both professionally and recreationally.
​​
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Old 14th May 2019, 14:42
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FAA doesn't specify electronic or paper. Paper logs are only convenient for signatures, which you can get electronically now anyway.

I haven't used my paper log in years.
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Old 14th May 2019, 16:02
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Originally Posted by sonicbum
Can't see the point of even having a logbook nowadays. All the hours can be printed out from the company system and signed by FLT OPS / HR which makes it even more reliable.
That's how I and my company handle it since 15 years.

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Old 14th May 2019, 16:04
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The beauty of a hand written logbook is you have a continuous almanac of your flying career from First flight, First Solo right through to final check ride and final flight with all the people you flew with and all the margin notes you made along the way, all in a very accessible and readable format. The hand written log books are also a very accurate record of what you flew, who with, where and when. Not sure just how personalised electronic log books can be these days, some employers require a lot more information about one's hours than others, saw an experienced B747 skipper get turned away from the interview once because all he had to offer was a weighty computer print out!
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Old 14th May 2019, 16:15
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe
And once printed, it is indelible ink.

I'm going fully electronic eventually, both professionally and recreationally.​​
Your quote is actually an AMC, not an IR itself, therefore not legally binding. The only legal bit is as follows:

FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.
So it depends on the licencing authority, which issued your licence.

Last edited by FlyingStone; 14th May 2019 at 16:15. Reason: Typo
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Old 14th May 2019, 17:35
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I've never seen the point of these new fangled electronic logbooks. Totally impersonal and worthless.
I'm on paper logbook number four now.
There's more to books than just the data in them.
Just my tuppence worth...
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Old 14th May 2019, 18:49
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Originally Posted by Nomad2
I've never seen the point of these new fangled electronic logbooks. Totally impersonal and worthless.
I'm on paper logbook number four now.
There's more to books than just the data in them.
Just my tuppence worth...
I'm really impressed you made the leap to airplanes, think you would have stuck to bikes...
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Old 14th May 2019, 20:12
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I appreciate the romance and sentiment associated with a paper logbook, but digital is just more practical.
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Old 14th May 2019, 21:04
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Originally Posted by sonicbum
Can't see the point of even having a logbook nowadays. All the hours can be printed out from the company system and signed by FLT OPS / HR which makes it even more reliable. I personally only use the logbook for recreational SEP flights once in a while and just print out my operator's logged hours signed by somebody in the office whenever I need them.
Not true for most companies. Could only get direct records from one of my many companies to date(they tend to keep dying on me, currently RYR, no harm to aviation world if they would follow their predecessors here ). So - do NOT rely on that.

However, most electronic logbooks offer the option to print out pages, even export them to external print shops to have a pro result(e.g. MCC, just to name the one I use). So, every 6 months I let print off my missing pages, put them in the binder, sign them off. Mission accomplished. Do not understand the discussion here.

Just combine the best of both "worlds"(as an airliner it is not really comfortable to do it the "classic" way and write every flight up - EXCEPT you are a green boy and need to have your first 1500 hours signed off by the Captain as PICUS - after that there is not really a need for discussion anymore), go for electronic, BUT do not rely on electronic alone and have it printed, signed, put it into a binder. A 5 Minute job every 6 months.
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Old 15th May 2019, 03:56
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Would suggest largely depends on your prospects in the aviation game, if you're working for a company that will never EVER go broke and that you will never EVER leave then it's an irrelevant question.

If you're a contract pilot or just have s**t luck in your ongoing choice of employers a written logbook will be accepted by all, electronic by some.
If you want to play in someone else's CAA backyard they set their standards and requirements, no matter what you think of them it's their backyard - up to you to decide whether you want to....or can.... play or not.

Cheers.

Last edited by galdian; 15th May 2019 at 03:59. Reason: addition
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Old 15th May 2019, 04:24
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Really, what's the downside of a paper one?

Certainly, it's universally acceptable, easily scanned and future proof. I suppose it's awkward if your ex wife puts them in the fire, as happened to a hostie friend of mines husband...
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Old 15th May 2019, 07:39
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Originally Posted by parabellum
saw an experienced B747 skipper get turned away from the interview once because all he had to offer was a weighty computer print out!
We have turned away several super qualified skippers with nicely hand written logbooks because as soon as they sat in the SIM You could easily figure out that the vast majority of those hand written hours were BS. When people show up for an assessment at my Operator with company printed hours / OPC there are generally no big surprises during interviews (with the usual exceptions obviously), so we are more than happy to consider that rather than scanned logbook pages.
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Old 15th May 2019, 07:44
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Originally Posted by tomuchwork
Not true for most companies. Could only get direct records from one of my many companies to date(they tend to keep dying on me, currently RYR, no harm to aviation world if they would follow their predecessors here ). So - do NOT rely on that.

However, most electronic logbooks offer the option to print out pages, even export them to external print shops to have a pro result(e.g. MCC, just to name the one I use). So, every 6 months I let print off my missing pages, put them in the binder, sign them off. Mission accomplished. Do not understand the discussion here.

Just combine the best of both "worlds"(as an airliner it is not really comfortable to do it the "classic" way and write every flight up - EXCEPT you are a green boy and need to have your first 1500 hours signed off by the Captain as PICUS - after that there is not really a need for discussion anymore), go for electronic, BUT do not rely on electronic alone and have it printed, signed, put it into a binder. A 5 Minute job every 6 months.
If You have any decent rostering management system such as AIMS or similar You can easily print out Your hours every month or so. If You don't, I am sure You still have a way to cross check how many hours exactly You flew in the past 30/90 days or whatever for FTL compliance and print them out.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:21
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There is no requirement mandating how records are kept in most countries, but some authorities or airlines still in this day and age only accept paper copies of records.
Whether those records are handwritten or printed, as long as it is signed by a competent authority, makes little difference.

E.g.: some time ago the IAA would only accept paper records when transferring licences...
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:42
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i do stick to paper logbook, personal preference mainly.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:42
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After paper logbook nr 6 i couldn't be bothered anymore. Went to electronic and stayed there. For my last interview i just printed the last 50 pages, put them in a binder and they were more than happy with that, the simulator and interview were more important anyway.Since i do keep it on several devices with a backup on a network storage, it has a much higher safety in my view than a paper written one that might get destroyed easily.
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