A321 Flap mis-selection
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: EU
A321 Flap mis-selection
A321. Scenario:
-Flap 2/Gear Down.
-A/P, A/T, F/D on
-Localiser established, about to capture Glide
-Flaps 3 called for
Inadvertently colleague selects Flaps 1
What happens?
-Flap 2/Gear Down.
-A/P, A/T, F/D on
-Localiser established, about to capture Glide
-Flaps 3 called for
Inadvertently colleague selects Flaps 1
What happens?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 30
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From: EU
This actually happened. Speed was around 160kts and thrust suddenly started to gradually increase, as did the speed. The glide had just been captured and I attributed the increase in thrust to the selection of Flap 3 whilst still not fully in a 3 degree profile. When speed increased to about 170 kts, towards 180kts (S Speed), I knew something was wrong and instinctively disconnected A/P and A/T. Simultaneously my colleague noticed his mistake and reselected Flap 3. Throughout these few seconds, i'm pretty sure that Vapp bug was still visible (there was certainly no bug at S Speed), and VLS did not seem to increase, and my intention was to bring the speed back down to Vapp. My question is, had my colleague not noticed his mistake, and I manually brought the speed towards Vapp. whilst Flaps were retracting towards position 1, VLS should simultaneously increase, shouldn't it?
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 720
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From: N5109.2W10.5
whilst Flaps were retracting towards position 1, VLS should simultaneously increase, shouldn't it?
If you perform an overweight GA from CONF Flaps 3 to CONF 1+F, the VLS only seems to increase by about 5 kts.
Joined: Apr 2011
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From: Doha
Does you SOPs not say that PF request Flaps 3 and PM checks that speed is below VFE next, moves the flap handle to Flaps 3 and says “Flaps 3” AFTER they have seen Flaps 3 in BLUE under the flaps display in order to confirm they have selected the correct flap setting ?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: EU
Does you SOPs not say that PF request Flaps 3 and PM checks that speed is below VFE next, moves the flap handle to Flaps 3 and says “Flaps 3” AFTER they have seen Flaps 3 in BLUE under the flaps display in order to confirm they have selected the correct flap setting ?
Joined: Nov 2016
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From: FLSomething
Does you SOPs not say that PF request Flaps 3 and PM checks that speed is below VFE next, moves the flap handle to Flaps 3 and says “Flaps 3” AFTER they have seen Flaps 3 in BLUE under the flaps display in order to confirm they have selected the correct flap setting ?
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 57
Likes: 1
From: UK
Been there - done that. I was 6 months into my career and beginning to feel comfortable... We were in the slot; Descent and approach had gone swimmingly so far, and workload was really rather low.
We were sitting at about 160kts on the glide path with managed speed the target. On F3 selection, the thrust came on as S became the target. With no obvious reason behind it - we were concerned about over speeding Vfe conf 3. My partner intervened by closing the thrust levers and disconnecting ATHR, but by that time the energy was all too much. We went around. When he said “GA - flaps”, I thought it was strange that the flap lever was at 1, and decided i’d best not move it. It did not occur to me, however, that it must have been me that put it there...
Neither of us picked up the error at the time. Downwind, after the subsequent missed approach, we put two and two together. The upshot from the wash up on the ground, and the subsequent phone call from the office, was the same as “effects of controls 2” - that is “Limitation, Opeation, Indication.”
I wont forget that one.
We were sitting at about 160kts on the glide path with managed speed the target. On F3 selection, the thrust came on as S became the target. With no obvious reason behind it - we were concerned about over speeding Vfe conf 3. My partner intervened by closing the thrust levers and disconnecting ATHR, but by that time the energy was all too much. We went around. When he said “GA - flaps”, I thought it was strange that the flap lever was at 1, and decided i’d best not move it. It did not occur to me, however, that it must have been me that put it there...
Neither of us picked up the error at the time. Downwind, after the subsequent missed approach, we put two and two together. The upshot from the wash up on the ground, and the subsequent phone call from the office, was the same as “effects of controls 2” - that is “Limitation, Opeation, Indication.”
I wont forget that one.
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 487
Likes: 42
From: Doha
VariablePitchP
On Airbus, you have no idea what flap setting have been selected by feel of the flap handle alone without checking the blue number or full display. Even when PF and I ask for flaps, I check the blue number or full to make sure my PM has not made an error.
On Airbus, you have no idea what flap setting have been selected by feel of the flap handle alone without checking the blue number or full display. Even when PF and I ask for flaps, I check the blue number or full to make sure my PM has not made an error.
Last edited by Black Pudding; 30th January 2019 at 07:26.
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: United States of Europe
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 720
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From: N5109.2W10.5
That’s because the definition of Vls in this case changes from 1.23Vs1g to 1.13 Vs1g.
From FCOM DSC-22_10-50-20 Definition of VLS,
"VLS:Lowest Selectable Speed.
Represented by the top of an amber strip along the airspeed scale on the PFD.
Computed by the FAC, based on FMS, and corresponds to 1.13 VS during takeoff, or following a touch and go
Becomes 1.23 VS, after retraction of one step of flaps.
Becomes 1.28 VS, when in clean configuration."
Doesn't mention a GA. Apparently - you need wheels on the ground to trigger 1.13 VS1g logic.
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: UK
Many years’ ago I was PM and exactly as the OP scenario, I selected F1 instead of the F3 requested as we were on the ILS into Bodrum.
The A/THR increased thrust - quite a lot - and PF went around. Once gear was up and we were safe, Capt says ‘what happened?’, ‘ Sorry, I cocked up’ says I. ‘OK no problem’ says he, adding with a smile ‘don’t do it again !’
I don’t know why I moved the lever the wrong way - probably tired or distracted; I think cabin secure was very late and I was answering their call - but that is the only time before or since that I ever did that. Point is, we all make mistakes and it is how we manage and catch the mistakes that counts. Capt did exactly the right thing and was decent about my mistake
@ 763 at the risk of opening a big can of worms, the place to see your config in Airbus is on the E/WD config graphic, so the flap lever does not need to be in one’s peripheral vision
The A/THR increased thrust - quite a lot - and PF went around. Once gear was up and we were safe, Capt says ‘what happened?’, ‘ Sorry, I cocked up’ says I. ‘OK no problem’ says he, adding with a smile ‘don’t do it again !’
I don’t know why I moved the lever the wrong way - probably tired or distracted; I think cabin secure was very late and I was answering their call - but that is the only time before or since that I ever did that. Point is, we all make mistakes and it is how we manage and catch the mistakes that counts. Capt did exactly the right thing and was decent about my mistake
@ 763 at the risk of opening a big can of worms, the place to see your config in Airbus is on the E/WD config graphic, so the flap lever does not need to be in one’s peripheral vision
Joined: Sep 2011
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From: FL390
The flap handle is in the wrong place on the Airbus. It is not in the peripheral vision of the pilot flying.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,443
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From: Wanderlust
Doesn't mention a GA. Apparently - you need wheels on the ground to trigger 1.13 VS1g logic.
If a go-around CONF 1+F is carried out following an approach CONF 3, VLS CONF 1+F may be higher than VLS CONF 3 +5 kt. The recommendation in such a case is to follow SRS orders which will accelerate the aircraft up to the displayed VLS. It should be noted, however, that VLS CONF 1+F equates to 1.23 VS1G whereas the minimum go-around speed required by regulations is 1.13 VS1G. This requirement is always satisfied.
Last edited by vilas; 2nd February 2019 at 05:23.
Joined: Nov 1998
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From: 🇬🇧🇪🇸
Our Company has had several Flap/Gear miselections. The risk is now mitigated by introducing a short pause by the PM between placing his/her hand and the lever and actually moving it. This gives time for both the PM to think what he/she is about to do and the PF to spot the wrong lever is about to be moved. Seems to work nicely.
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 720
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From: N5109.2W10.5
No it dosen't. 1.13 or 1.23 has nothing to do with on ground.
If it has nothing to do with on ground logic - then please explain.
Last edited by Goldenrivett; 3rd February 2019 at 13:51.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 39
From: Wanderlust
Golden
The switch from one ratio to another is not always mentioned. Like when you move the flap lever to 1 from zero the VLS changes even with flap slat jammed at zero because the lever position changes the ratio of VLS from 1.28 to 1.23.
The switch from one ratio to another is not always mentioned. Like when you move the flap lever to 1 from zero the VLS changes even with flap slat jammed at zero because the lever position changes the ratio of VLS from 1.28 to 1.23.
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 110
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From: In a house
With all automation still in managed the aircraft will command S speed when flap is selected back to flap 1. The real danger is if auto thrust is not engaged and the mis selection is unnoticed. Always a good idea to follow SOP and company procedures to avoid these problems.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 529
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From: Asia
wow so thats why we set Flaps lever to one in that failure!
