Control column flailing during the flare - a dangerous practice by some pilots.
Joined: Sep 2016
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From: USA
I'm sure the nervous explanation is true in many cases, (as a light plane instructor, new students is where I saw the same thing) but not all. For example, the guy in the video with the aft-facing camera in front of the yoke, is an airshow pilot. Pretty sure he's not cowed by the guppy.
Last edited by Vessbot; 21st August 2018 at 04:02.
Joined: Apr 2009
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: A place in the sun
I flew both the VC10 and the 707 as a line pilot and as an instructor. I thought the VC10 was the more stable of the two, it had very powerful controls and was a very steady instrument platform. It felt solid and predictable. The controls were powered by electrically driven PCUs with artificial feel that I thought gave heavier control forces than were strictly necessary.
The 707 had a very clever manual tab system system for the ailerons and elevators with hydraulic boost for the rudder. It was the more sensitive of the two, you could feel the aircraft better and it was the more satisfying one to fly. Whereas the VC10 was more forgiving when mishandled, the 707 certainly told you when you didn't do it right.
On both types, I took great pleasure in flying them with the minimum of control movements - it not only produced a smoother ride but was marginally more economical (every control movement slightly increases drag), while this may not have been measurable, it certainly gave me greater satisfaction. As Dave Gittins quoted in his post 31, John Farley said, "Over-control is a common problem with learning to fly, almost regardless of the task but with experience we get better at relaxing, better at trimming, better at letting it fly itself for a bit and then coaxing it back to the desired state. In fact better at becoming a low gain (relaxed) pilot rather than being a high gain (overactive) one. Airplanes take time to respond and it is a waste of time to oscillate controls.”
I was a great believer in trimming correctly, not only did it let the aircraft fly itself but it saved a lot of effort and gave one more time to think.
I once flew with a co-pilot to whom I gave the sector into Istanbul. It was a calm day yet his control inputs became larger, faster and more furious the closer we came to the ground. After the landing, I said to him, 'Just hold the controls lightly and feel what I do'. I than waggled them as furiously as he had done on the approach and landing. He was completely oblivious to what he had been doing and he didn't believe me. It was only when the flight engineer confirmed that what I had shown him was indeed correct that he sort of believed me, but I don't think he was convinced. I told him it was fortunate his inputs were so fast that the aircraft had had no time to respond to each one but that the average of his inputs was about right and so it had flown roughly where he wanted!
Although he had many hours on type, he had a distintly below average record.
We then talked about being self-aware, to think about his control movements and to take time to trim accurately. It would make his life much easier!
The 707 had a very clever manual tab system system for the ailerons and elevators with hydraulic boost for the rudder. It was the more sensitive of the two, you could feel the aircraft better and it was the more satisfying one to fly. Whereas the VC10 was more forgiving when mishandled, the 707 certainly told you when you didn't do it right.
On both types, I took great pleasure in flying them with the minimum of control movements - it not only produced a smoother ride but was marginally more economical (every control movement slightly increases drag), while this may not have been measurable, it certainly gave me greater satisfaction. As Dave Gittins quoted in his post 31, John Farley said, "Over-control is a common problem with learning to fly, almost regardless of the task but with experience we get better at relaxing, better at trimming, better at letting it fly itself for a bit and then coaxing it back to the desired state. In fact better at becoming a low gain (relaxed) pilot rather than being a high gain (overactive) one. Airplanes take time to respond and it is a waste of time to oscillate controls.”
I was a great believer in trimming correctly, not only did it let the aircraft fly itself but it saved a lot of effort and gave one more time to think.
I once flew with a co-pilot to whom I gave the sector into Istanbul. It was a calm day yet his control inputs became larger, faster and more furious the closer we came to the ground. After the landing, I said to him, 'Just hold the controls lightly and feel what I do'. I than waggled them as furiously as he had done on the approach and landing. He was completely oblivious to what he had been doing and he didn't believe me. It was only when the flight engineer confirmed that what I had shown him was indeed correct that he sort of believed me, but I don't think he was convinced. I told him it was fortunate his inputs were so fast that the aircraft had had no time to respond to each one but that the average of his inputs was about right and so it had flown roughly where he wanted!
Although he had many hours on type, he had a distintly below average record.
We then talked about being self-aware, to think about his control movements and to take time to trim accurately. It would make his life much easier!
Joined: Apr 2009
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,481
Likes: 489
From: A place in the sun
TOGA Tap,
I don't think it is that common, mainly just a few individuals who would probably benefit from some extra tuition. Most people I flew with were very smooth and precise on the controls.
I don't think it is that common, mainly just a few individuals who would probably benefit from some extra tuition. Most people I flew with were very smooth and precise on the controls.
Joined: Apr 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 1,264
Likes: 57
From: Surrey, UK ;
I occasionally fly around Colorado Springs in a 160 HP 172S. Last year on a 100 F day flying from Pueblo (4729) to Meadowlake (6874) I was acutely conscious of how much the slightest incorrect amount of elevator or rudder added to drag and stopped the climb (that was only about 100 fpm at best) or risked overheating the engine with the increased power requirement.
That's the stuff that teaches you about aeroplane performance, far more than bimbling around from Redhill. That's when you learn about setting best trim (elevator and rudder) and using fingertips on the controls.
That's the stuff that teaches you about aeroplane performance, far more than bimbling around from Redhill. That's when you learn about setting best trim (elevator and rudder) and using fingertips on the controls.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
From: very close to STN!!
Pressures!!!
My first flight as a student in a C150: the instructor did the takeoff and climbed to a safe altitude and then gave me controls.
after about a minute, he yelled at the top of his voice, “I have control” then started moving the controls rapidly and almost to full movement and continued yelling, “did you see me flying like this???how does it ******* feel when someone flies like this !!!!???!!!!”
Then he calmed down and said (as best I can remember from 1978) “pressures....control pressures. Not movements. remember you’re flying through a liquid...air is much like water....most displacements will correct themselves if you only hold the controls in the position that has been working for most of the time before the displacement by the air. You only need to maintain pitch, roll and power. The rest will take care of itself”
he had been a Huey pilot in Vietnam. Perhaps some on this forum will remember him? Gordon S. Hall.
his instructor techniques were not always PC but his heart was in the right place and he took a genuine concern for his students and wanted them to strive to be as smooth as silk as well as safe as houses.
I suspect most of the new FOs only are doing what they see their instructors do. Even in calm conditions, the minute the A/P comes off, the control column is constantly moving too much, correcting the overcontrol they just did for no reason.
i find that when I try to point out what they’re doing, most get angry like I was cursing their mother or girlfriend. A few listen. Very few. Most take it personal.
The ones I think might listen, I try to show, “let go of the controls....see...nothing happens! It stays on the same path quite well. Don’t move the aileron or elevator unless you really need to. And then, think pressures...hold the airplane where you want it to be”
after about a minute, he yelled at the top of his voice, “I have control” then started moving the controls rapidly and almost to full movement and continued yelling, “did you see me flying like this???how does it ******* feel when someone flies like this !!!!???!!!!”
Then he calmed down and said (as best I can remember from 1978) “pressures....control pressures. Not movements. remember you’re flying through a liquid...air is much like water....most displacements will correct themselves if you only hold the controls in the position that has been working for most of the time before the displacement by the air. You only need to maintain pitch, roll and power. The rest will take care of itself”
he had been a Huey pilot in Vietnam. Perhaps some on this forum will remember him? Gordon S. Hall.
his instructor techniques were not always PC but his heart was in the right place and he took a genuine concern for his students and wanted them to strive to be as smooth as silk as well as safe as houses.
I suspect most of the new FOs only are doing what they see their instructors do. Even in calm conditions, the minute the A/P comes off, the control column is constantly moving too much, correcting the overcontrol they just did for no reason.
i find that when I try to point out what they’re doing, most get angry like I was cursing their mother or girlfriend. A few listen. Very few. Most take it personal.
The ones I think might listen, I try to show, “let go of the controls....see...nothing happens! It stays on the same path quite well. Don’t move the aileron or elevator unless you really need to. And then, think pressures...hold the airplane where you want it to be”
Joined: Mar 2004
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 347
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From: Hong Kong SAR
In the 1970s at a gliding club, we advised students to trim for airspeed, and then hold the stick the way a Duchess would hold a dustman's d!ck.
Finger and thumb, pressures only.
Finger and thumb, pressures only.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
From: uk
Having just watched the video above of the 737 pilot and am amazed at the amount of control inputs made by the pilot. I have not flown the 737 but just can’t see how those inputs are required, I was a training captain at my previous airline, admittedly on turboprops, and when I saw a new FO “stir the porridge” I would get them to gently hold the control column in a central position and lo and behold the PIO’s would stop and the aircraft would become stable again, if in doubt release the column let it settle and then continue. Currently on the Airbus and don’t tend to see it but then I don’t have a column moving to bring it to my attention.
In a previous life I flew helicopters in the military in the SAR role where over controlling could have a rather detrimental affect on the mission in hand, funnily enough we used to use the same phrase as CISTRS above...
In a previous life I flew helicopters in the military in the SAR role where over controlling could have a rather detrimental affect on the mission in hand, funnily enough we used to use the same phrase as CISTRS above...
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 838
From: Tring, UK
Having just watched the video above of the 737 pilot and am amazed at the amount of control inputs made by the pilot.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
From: Ottawa, Canada
Is there a risk that this churning on the controls could result in a similar failure to AA587?
Aircraft weigh many tons, that's a lot of momentum going on. How on earth do people think they need churning like that?
Aircraft weigh many tons, that's a lot of momentum going on. How on earth do people think they need churning like that?
Joined: Dec 2006
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Likes: 8
From: The No Transgression Zone
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: Germany
I'm sure the nervous explanation is true in many cases, (as a light plane instructor, new students is where I saw the same thing) but not all. For example, the guy in the video with the aft-facing camera in front of the yoke, is an airshow pilot. Pretty sure he's not cowed by the guppy.
for the non-test community, a good article covering high gain low gain pilots is here:
http://www.innerairmanship.com/blog/2016/07/01/are-you-a-low-gain-pilot/
High gain - strafing run on ground target,re-establishing wings level from a twinkle roll.
Low gain - large aircraft approach, large aircraft level off, a well flown ils
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 936
Likes: 67
From: USA
Someone needs to politely tell him that high gain inputs are fine for an extra 300 with neutral stability in all axes, it's not in a modern transport category aircraft certified to FAR25.
for the non-test community, a good article covering high gain low gain pilots is here:
Are you a low-gain pilot? | Inner Art of Airmanship Blog
High gain - strafing run on ground target,re-establishing wings level from a twinkle roll.
Low gain - large aircraft approach, large aircraft level off, a well flown ils
for the non-test community, a good article covering high gain low gain pilots is here:
Are you a low-gain pilot? | Inner Art of Airmanship Blog
High gain - strafing run on ground target,re-establishing wings level from a twinkle roll.
Low gain - large aircraft approach, large aircraft level off, a well flown ils
Last edited by Vessbot; 21st August 2018 at 22:27.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 386
Likes: 4
From: Here and there
then hold the stick the way a Duchess would hold a dustman's d!ck.
Finger and thumb, pressures only.
Finger and thumb, pressures only.
I prefer that which a Boeing Seattle instructor pilot told me. That was to hold the control wheel as gently as if you were milking a mouse.
Clearly the subject of PIO has brought quite a few Pprune contributors out of the wood work. It must be a lot more widespread addiction than one would have first thought. Like heavy smokers, gentle admonishment simply will not get through to the addicted. Well chosen words are more effective. Thrashing the control column around as soon as the autopilot is disengaged can have its own unintended consequences and if nothing else, is poor airmanship.
Last edited by Judd; 22nd August 2018 at 00:09.