Control column flailing during the flare - a dangerous practice by some pilots.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 438
Likes: 13
From: Australia
Control column flailing during the flare - a dangerous practice by some pilots.
Frantic "see-sawing" of the control column, otherwise technically known as gross over-controlling, is a common characteristic seen both during simulator and line operations. Often the habit is ingrained from ab-initio days. Although it may or not result in a smooth touchdown, this rather distasteful technique invariably uses up extra runway which in turn is usually countered by heavy manual braking and passenger discomfort.
It appears not to be a deliberate landing technique, but rather an unconscious "twitch" factor habit where the pilot is feeling for the runway in the hope of making a smooth touch down. Interestingly, it often does seem to work on most occasions; thereby reinforcing the pilots belief that it is the best way to achieve a smooth landing. The usual ensuing float before final touchdown may also be a factor in over-runs, although this is never mentioned as a contributory cause in accident reports.
For any PM, it is a wise precaution to keep valuable bits of his/her anatomy well clear of the control column full aft movement when their compatriot is feeling for the deck in such a manner, as well as knees well spread to avoid being speared by the excessive lateral lashing of the control wheel. That danger to boobs, balls or knees fortunately does not exist with a side stick controller which may be a factor in the good safety record of the Airbus series of airliners.
Have any other Pprune readers witnessed at first this hand appalling landing technique by some pilots, which is quite distressing to those of us who consider a beautifully executed smooth and gentle flare and touch down on the right spot on the runway, an event of consummate skill?
It appears not to be a deliberate landing technique, but rather an unconscious "twitch" factor habit where the pilot is feeling for the runway in the hope of making a smooth touch down. Interestingly, it often does seem to work on most occasions; thereby reinforcing the pilots belief that it is the best way to achieve a smooth landing. The usual ensuing float before final touchdown may also be a factor in over-runs, although this is never mentioned as a contributory cause in accident reports.
For any PM, it is a wise precaution to keep valuable bits of his/her anatomy well clear of the control column full aft movement when their compatriot is feeling for the deck in such a manner, as well as knees well spread to avoid being speared by the excessive lateral lashing of the control wheel. That danger to boobs, balls or knees fortunately does not exist with a side stick controller which may be a factor in the good safety record of the Airbus series of airliners.
Have any other Pprune readers witnessed at first this hand appalling landing technique by some pilots, which is quite distressing to those of us who consider a beautifully executed smooth and gentle flare and touch down on the right spot on the runway, an event of consummate skill?
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 356
Likes: 2
From: France
In French we call that technique "faire de la mayonnaise", as it reminds the way to make a mayonnaise with a fork.
I think that a good remedy is to send the pilot to a glider club. Have him look at the instructor's technique while spiraling in a thermal, hand him over the controls, and he'll see by himself that the mayonnaise technique won't make the glider climb. Hand flying is all about angle of attack perception, it's an extremely difficult skill to acquire, as it can't really be taught on the ground. Gliding is a very cheap way indeed to improve one's visual perception. Once your perception is accurate enough so that you can perceive not only a variation of AOA, but also the rate of variation, then you can anticipate accurately enough not to over control.
Light helicopter flying (R22 for instance) is also a good school for visual perception, but by far more expensive.
I think that a good remedy is to send the pilot to a glider club. Have him look at the instructor's technique while spiraling in a thermal, hand him over the controls, and he'll see by himself that the mayonnaise technique won't make the glider climb. Hand flying is all about angle of attack perception, it's an extremely difficult skill to acquire, as it can't really be taught on the ground. Gliding is a very cheap way indeed to improve one's visual perception. Once your perception is accurate enough so that you can perceive not only a variation of AOA, but also the rate of variation, then you can anticipate accurately enough not to over control.
Light helicopter flying (R22 for instance) is also a good school for visual perception, but by far more expensive.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 438
Likes: 13
From: Australia
Question for you Sheppey,
do you fly the 737?
do you fly the 737?
When I later joined the RAAF and began flying training on Tiger Moths I must have been close to knee-capping my instructor in the front seat with the wooden joy stick which I was waving around in the back seat. His profanity instantly cured me of that technique..
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 255
Likes: 3
From: Close to you
Splendid!
This thread gave me a much needed laugh on this gray sunday morning
"For any PM, it is a wise precaution to keep valuable bits of his/her anatomy well clear of the control column full aft movement when their compatriot is feeling for the deck in such a manner, as well as knees well spread to avoid being speared by the excessive lateral lashing of the control wheel."
"In French we call that technique "faire de la mayonnaise""
"When I later joined the RAAF and began flying training on Tiger Moths I must have been close to knee-capping my instructor in the front seat with the wooden joy stick which I was waving around in the back seat. His profanity instantly cured me of that technique.."
Hilarious comments indeed!
I have seen this technique as well among the more nervous flyers.
This thread gave me a much needed laugh on this gray sunday morning
"For any PM, it is a wise precaution to keep valuable bits of his/her anatomy well clear of the control column full aft movement when their compatriot is feeling for the deck in such a manner, as well as knees well spread to avoid being speared by the excessive lateral lashing of the control wheel."
"In French we call that technique "faire de la mayonnaise""
"When I later joined the RAAF and began flying training on Tiger Moths I must have been close to knee-capping my instructor in the front seat with the wooden joy stick which I was waving around in the back seat. His profanity instantly cured me of that technique.."
Hilarious comments indeed!
I have seen this technique as well among the more nervous flyers.
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 265
Likes: 164
From: Sunnydale
I’ll admit it’s something I used to do when I first started flying. And that was on the 737. No idea why. I’ve moved on to larger aircraft and I don’t do it anymore. Whilst I fly significantly less sectors per year than I used to, perversely I hand fly more per sector than I used to when I was on shorthaul.
Maybe it’s because on a larger aircraft “stirring the pot” visually does absolutely nothing. Whereas on a 737 the responsiveness of the flight controls is much higher (though it has been nearly a decade since I last flew one).
Just my musings on the subject rather than being any kind of fact.
Maybe it’s because on a larger aircraft “stirring the pot” visually does absolutely nothing. Whereas on a 737 the responsiveness of the flight controls is much higher (though it has been nearly a decade since I last flew one).
Just my musings on the subject rather than being any kind of fact.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 39
From: Wanderlust
You move a flight control to change or maintain a bank or pitch. If flight controls are randomly moved you are inducing bank or pitch and cancelling it before it takes place and feeling good about it. In conventional aircraft one can literally feel the resistance of flight controls against the airflow and you can judge when intervention is required. In B707 during base flying it was very evident who is giving unnecessary input because it used to react late with lateral rocking while it was possible to fly it rock steady with proper handling.
Joined: Aug 2013
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 11
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From: Not lost, but slightly uncertain of position.
Watched this video a while ago and thought to myself that this guy is over controlling his aircraft. Though its not only during the flare phase, it seams quite unnecessary to me, to make such violent control inputs in both pitch and roll during approach, even in gusty conditions.
What do you think?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...g-737-10050106
What do you think?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...g-737-10050106
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 120
Likes: 4
From: England
Watched this video a while ago and thought to myself that this guy is over controlling his aircraft. Though its not only during the flare phase, it seams quite unnecessary to me, to make such violent control inputs in both pitch and roll during approach, even in gusty conditions.
What do you think?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...g-737-10050106
What do you think?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...g-737-10050106
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,550
Likes: 0
From: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Yeah, the "yoke pumpers". I don't do this, but I know some who do. It seems strange to me, but I have flown with some "yoke pumpers" who fly the airplane quite well, and couldn't in any way be considered "nervous". It's their technique, and it they're producing a good outcome with that technique, the fact that it's different than my technique isn't going to cause me to miss a lot of sleep.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 838
From: Tring, UK
I’m on the 777 at the moment, which is a pretty stable aeroplane (especially the -300). Most people I fly with are smooth in pitch and roll but the odd few just can’t stop giving little sharp inputs all the time, which on a 200ft+ wingspan machine generates ripples that wang up and down the wing bouncing us all around but with little to no effect on the flightpath. Same for the elevator. I spend most of the time after takeoff thinking “please put the AP in, please...” as any turbulence is almost entirely self-generated.
I haven’t been able to find a common factor yet, although many have come off the FBW Airbus...
I haven’t been able to find a common factor yet, although many have come off the FBW Airbus...
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 432
From: In your head.
Totally agree. In my 10 years on the 737, with it's highly responsive controls, I've never needed to make such enormous inputs so close to the ground (except when checking full and free). If he stays on twins he'll probably get away with it but any attempt to apply that technique on a 4 engined aircraft will probably end in tears and a nacelle strike. I do find it odd that some pilots feel the need to make constant control inputs in calm conditions. Maybe it's just nervous energy?
Last edited by Chesty Morgan; 19th August 2018 at 20:08.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
From: US
I’m on the 777 at the moment, which is a pretty stable aeroplane (especially the -300). Most people I fly with are smooth in pitch and roll but the odd few just can’t stop giving little sharp inputs all the time, which on a 200ft+ wingspan machine generates ripples that wang up and down the wing bouncing us all around but with little to no effect on the flightpath. Same for the elevator. I spend most of the time after takeoff thinking “please put the AP in, please...” as any turbulence is almost entirely self-generated.
I haven’t been able to find a common factor yet, although many have come off the FBW Airbus...
I haven’t been able to find a common factor yet, although many have come off the FBW Airbus...
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 265
Likes: 164
From: Sunnydale
I have, far too often for my liking. And whilst large inputs may be required, this “cool cat” was putting in large inputs and then instantly reversing them. Probably doing sweet FA.
And be as others have said, try that with large wingspan aircraft, it will end in tears. Unnecessary. I’ll admit I overcontrolled early in my career and you could get away with it in a 737, anything bigger and you’re suspended pending investigation at best.
And be as others have said, try that with large wingspan aircraft, it will end in tears. Unnecessary. I’ll admit I overcontrolled early in my career and you could get away with it in a 737, anything bigger and you’re suspended pending investigation at best.
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 254
Likes: 2
From: SF Bay area, CA USA
Quote:
"What do you think?"
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...g-737-10050106
The best part of that whole sequence was the orgasm at the end.
.
"What do you think?"
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...g-737-10050106
The best part of that whole sequence was the orgasm at the end.
.
Last edited by jack11111; 19th August 2018 at 23:59.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 386
Likes: 4
From: Here and there
The best part of that whole sequence was the orgasm at the end.
Having said that, if ever a picture is worth a thousand words, then jack11111 provided it. A brilliant demonstration. The equivalent of Children of the Magenta Line except it was a lesson on how not to fly manually. Should be mandatory viewing during type rating training, under the title of threat and error management on the flight deck. The threat being the flailing control column. That should keep the aficionados of TEM happy too.
One way to convince a perspiring pilot the utter uselessness of this addiction to over-controlling, is to use CWS steering mode mode which makes it more resistant to large inputs. Better still, direct him to keep his hand on the control wheel during a coupled approach and autoland and tell him to emulate that in future.
If all else fails it should be back to simulator training until the perpetrator sees the folly of his ways.