737 VAPP?
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 860
Likes: 0
From: FL410
Agreed, and in doing so shown those aviators operating the aircraft and knowing its limitations the various issues arisen during the approach, who then openly criticise the pilot in question.
Maybe the pilot in question was comfortable filming and publishing his achievement, where others would take a different view on his "achievement" that day.
Regardless of reason for posting, a challenging day it may have been, the pilot's limitations may have been exceeded, tunnel vision may have occurred and as such he may not have realised what was going on during the approach.
Let's not judge him, but learn from the video.
Let's teach our fellow aviators it is OK to abandon the approach when seeing one like this in future, when a flap relief activates at low level, or tell the handling pilot his thrust setting is too high, his approach speed is excessive, and so forth...
Maybe the pilot in question was comfortable filming and publishing his achievement, where others would take a different view on his "achievement" that day.
Regardless of reason for posting, a challenging day it may have been, the pilot's limitations may have been exceeded, tunnel vision may have occurred and as such he may not have realised what was going on during the approach.
Let's not judge him, but learn from the video.
Let's teach our fellow aviators it is OK to abandon the approach when seeing one like this in future, when a flap relief activates at low level, or tell the handling pilot his thrust setting is too high, his approach speed is excessive, and so forth...
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: North East, UK
At least in my airline, this approach would the kind considered as a case study of poor handling skills and lack of assertiveness from the pilot not flying.
It may be the case that the airline involved have more relaxed procedures regarding stabilised approach criteria and flap blowback.
Anybody thats spent more than a few hours in a 737-700/800 knows that any extended period with average thrust well beyond 60% will be far in excess of what is required. Of course there may be periods where reacting to a shear that thrust may be lower or higher but the thrust barely goes below the datum setting at of around 55-60% whilst staying far above that for almost all of the final approach - even during and approaching blowback.
If we look at the ROD in the final stages its between around 300fpm and then all the way to a sustained 1500fpm!
Like the previous poster says, every now and again you can have a bad day at the office, but to consider this an approach to be proud enough to put on youtube... madness in my opinion!
It may be the case that the airline involved have more relaxed procedures regarding stabilised approach criteria and flap blowback.
Anybody thats spent more than a few hours in a 737-700/800 knows that any extended period with average thrust well beyond 60% will be far in excess of what is required. Of course there may be periods where reacting to a shear that thrust may be lower or higher but the thrust barely goes below the datum setting at of around 55-60% whilst staying far above that for almost all of the final approach - even during and approaching blowback.
If we look at the ROD in the final stages its between around 300fpm and then all the way to a sustained 1500fpm!
Like the previous poster says, every now and again you can have a bad day at the office, but to consider this an approach to be proud enough to put on youtube... madness in my opinion!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: canada
Afternoon,
Have just seen THIS video of a 737 on final approach...
At 5:29 the speed briefly tops out at 183KIAS and the flap load relief activates. Are there any technical inspections required after such an event?
Have just seen THIS video of a 737 on final approach...
At 5:29 the speed briefly tops out at 183KIAS and the flap load relief activates. Are there any technical inspections required after such an event?
Plus I don't think most people would notice the flap relief working while on short final fighting a gusty day.
The pilot did the best he/she could and that's just to fly the plane.
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: North East, UK
Frozen... are you a qualified 737 driver?
The flap 30 limit speed for this aircraft is 175kts. The airspeed is above 175 for a period before the blowback activates, thus they had a flap overspeed in my book. Blowback is designed to prevent damage to the flap system yes however it is reactive, not predictive in operation.
In my opinion if that was the best he/she could do at flying that aircraft their licence should be torn up or inspected for its validity.
The flap 30 limit speed for this aircraft is 175kts. The airspeed is above 175 for a period before the blowback activates, thus they had a flap overspeed in my book. Blowback is designed to prevent damage to the flap system yes however it is reactive, not predictive in operation.
In my opinion if that was the best he/she could do at flying that aircraft their licence should be torn up or inspected for its validity.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
From: Sydney
All I can suggest is stay out of other people's flightdecks. How would you like someone criticising your approach.
We don't have the full picture as to what is going on!
For example, the previous landing aircraft may have reported a large undershoot shear!
Who knows. I'm just uncomfortable with the finger pointing without knowing the facts and actually being there.
We don't have the full picture as to what is going on!
For example, the previous landing aircraft may have reported a large undershoot shear!
Who knows. I'm just uncomfortable with the finger pointing without knowing the facts and actually being there.
This video serves as a discussion point. Maybe even a training aide.
Shutting down discussion is the worst outcome. No one learns that way.
Joined: Sep 2008
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,435
Likes: 1,202
From: 41S174E
Even if there was no flap over speed and no excessive ROD it is still scary to watch the over controlling. I have been flying the 737's for ten years and never seen control inputs like that.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,605
Likes: 154
From: Having a margarita on the beach
At around 400 ft RA the IAS jumped to 183 kt which is command speed + 28 knots considering what seems to be a Vref additive of 14 kt from the original Vref of 141 Kt. So it looks to me like an unstable approach be it due to inadequate handling, windshear or a combination of both. In any case it's a go around.
Last edited by sonicbum; 8th April 2017 at 11:04. Reason: Typo
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 164
Likes: 10
From: FL390
I'd be hoping my copilot would be telling me to go around if I was flying an unstable approach like this.
They had 3.7 tonnes of fuel, there's plenty of time to try again or go somewhere else with that amount.
They had 3.7 tonnes of fuel, there's plenty of time to try again or go somewhere else with that amount.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 352
Likes: 148
From: FL390
UK, on the A320. There's a big difference between acting as PM (and I have no qualms about speaking up and potentially annoying someone there, as it's my job), and offering feedback directly on someone's flying technique.
I've only done it once (in fact, after the captain specifically asked for it after a challenging approach), and when it wasn't what he wanted to hear I received a bit of a lecture about how a "bit of experience" didn't make me an expert and the importance of keeping my mouth shut.
So, yeah, I'll continue to use our post-flight reviews to pick holes in my own flying - of which there are many, sadly - but will not offer feedback otherwise.
I've only done it once (in fact, after the captain specifically asked for it after a challenging approach), and when it wasn't what he wanted to hear I received a bit of a lecture about how a "bit of experience" didn't make me an expert and the importance of keeping my mouth shut.
So, yeah, I'll continue to use our post-flight reviews to pick holes in my own flying - of which there are many, sadly - but will not offer feedback otherwise.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
From: Some hotel
Over controlling with excessive speed and thrust. I can agree that one might not notice a flap load relief activating in tricky conditions but he should notice the excessive speed and do something about it which he did not. I have to wonder why he selected LV CHG at 1200'AAL and after autopilot disconnect
Last edited by SR-22; 9th April 2017 at 19:15.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,349
Likes: 845
From: Tring, UK
Having just watched the video, it reminds me of the old blue screen shots when people are pretending to be driving cars: lots of sawing away at the wheel without any corresponding movement from the vehicle. Much of the “turbulence” here appears to be self-induced by flailing away in what are not exactly challenging conditions.
In my outfit, that approach would have been classed as unstable for multiple reasons, with a mandatory GA. Not a great display of airmanship here I’m afraid...
In my outfit, that approach would have been classed as unstable for multiple reasons, with a mandatory GA. Not a great display of airmanship here I’m afraid...
