A320F flap problem after TO
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A320F flap problem after TO
Boing prioritize the use of the checklists as follows:
Emergency (eng fire...)
Normal
Abnormal( flaps problems...)
Airbus has ECAM.
Question is if you have an ECAM flap fault after TO as you retract the flaps, will you proceed with the ECAM actions or you will continue until the flap lever has been raised to 0 (speed pull of course) , read the Normal checklist and then you will start the ECAM actions?
Emergency (eng fire...)
Normal
Abnormal( flaps problems...)
Airbus has ECAM.
Question is if you have an ECAM flap fault after TO as you retract the flaps, will you proceed with the ECAM actions or you will continue until the flap lever has been raised to 0 (speed pull of course) , read the Normal checklist and then you will start the ECAM actions?
Last edited by Starboard321; 8th May 2014 at 14:15.
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First priority.
Pull for selected speed as Managed speed will probably accelerate to an overspeed condition.
When deemed a suitable time i.e. above MSA etc, ECAM actions.
My airline doesn't have After take off checks.
Pull for selected speed as Managed speed will probably accelerate to an overspeed condition.
When deemed a suitable time i.e. above MSA etc, ECAM actions.
My airline doesn't have After take off checks.
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Starboard321
With flaps jam why would you raise flap lever to zero? Pull speed and Just continue and when safe and convenient ECAM actions. At STATUS as usual complete after take off CL with flaps at--- something then STATUS and apply Landing with slat/flap jam procedure. In Airbus lingo what is on QRH back cover is check list and what is inside are all procedures.
With flaps jam why would you raise flap lever to zero? Pull speed and Just continue and when safe and convenient ECAM actions. At STATUS as usual complete after take off CL with flaps at--- something then STATUS and apply Landing with slat/flap jam procedure. In Airbus lingo what is on QRH back cover is check list and what is inside are all procedures.
Last edited by vilas; 7th May 2014 at 15:22. Reason: correction
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Ex, TO CONF2 PACKS OFF.
Positive rate, G up
1500ft AGL, THR CLB, pack 1 ON (after 10" pack 2 ON)
Speed increasing, FLAP 1, ECAM "FLAP FAULT"
Speed Pull, "ECAM actions"
Airbus procedure:
FLAPS LEVER (IF FLAPS NOT LOCKED).............................................RECYCLE Return to the previous selection, then back to the desired position.
If unsuccessful: Refer to PRO-ABN-10 Landing with Slats or Flaps Jammed
In my opinion this is the sequence of the actions. But I have heard also that you have to continue until the flap lever is raised at 0 and then to start ECAM, which I don't think that this is right.
Positive rate, G up
1500ft AGL, THR CLB, pack 1 ON (after 10" pack 2 ON)
Speed increasing, FLAP 1, ECAM "FLAP FAULT"
Speed Pull, "ECAM actions"
Airbus procedure:
FLAPS LEVER (IF FLAPS NOT LOCKED).............................................RECYCLE Return to the previous selection, then back to the desired position.
If unsuccessful: Refer to PRO-ABN-10 Landing with Slats or Flaps Jammed
In my opinion this is the sequence of the actions. But I have heard also that you have to continue until the flap lever is raised at 0 and then to start ECAM, which I don't think that this is right.
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starboard321
When there is computer problem then ECAM asks you to recycle flap lever. If it is unsuccessful or flaps are locked then you don't move the flap lever. You perhaps did not hear properly.
When there is computer problem then ECAM asks you to recycle flap lever. If it is unsuccessful or flaps are locked then you don't move the flap lever. You perhaps did not hear properly.
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vilas
Vila thank you for your comments but the reason for this thread in first place is that there is another party that suggests to move the flap lever at position 0 and maybe then the "Flaps Fault" problem stop to exists. If not, then recycle etc etc.. where I totally disagree.
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The flaps can jam for a variety of reasons:
Computer that drives the flaps has failed
Lever that selects the flaps has failed
System has detected a flap asymetry and has locked the flaps in place
Flap mechanism has jammed
Hydraulics that move the flaps are faulty
Depending on the reason Ecam will ask for the lever to be recycled or not. Either way first action is to select the speed to avoid a flap overspeed, after that there is no hurry, get to a safe altitude and location then go through the Ecam followed by the QRH.
Computer that drives the flaps has failed
Lever that selects the flaps has failed
System has detected a flap asymetry and has locked the flaps in place
Flap mechanism has jammed
Hydraulics that move the flaps are faulty
Depending on the reason Ecam will ask for the lever to be recycled or not. Either way first action is to select the speed to avoid a flap overspeed, after that there is no hurry, get to a safe altitude and location then go through the Ecam followed by the QRH.
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Not sure you can eliminate common-sense and airmanship, even in an Airbus 
Moving the Flap Lever to 0 with Flaps stuck potentially at 2 leaves you with likely no speed you can fly at below F2 Max, and above F0 Min [GD].
So fly the aircraft (inc safe speed for Flaps), assess / confirm the situation, and at an appropriate time action ECAM. There will likely be more than 1 way to satisfactorily resolve it, and no manual IMHO can cover all situations.
Moving the Flap Lever to 0 with Flaps stuck potentially at 2 leaves you with likely no speed you can fly at below F2 Max, and above F0 Min [GD].
So fly the aircraft (inc safe speed for Flaps), assess / confirm the situation, and at an appropriate time action ECAM. There will likely be more than 1 way to satisfactorily resolve it, and no manual IMHO can cover all situations.
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In any flap fault case the first action is always to Pull speed in order to make sure you don't over or underspeed.
Then you make sure aircraft is safe, don't want to climb to high. But you might be able to stay on departure route. Talk to atc what you are doing.
Then ECAM.
Then based on the completed ECAM, you will have to make a decision on what you do next.
NigelOnDraft maybe I misunderstand ur post, but you might see yourseld in an overspeed/underspeed situation sometime if you go about moving flaps regardless. How is that airmanship?
I would say that pulling speed is Airmanship, as it immediately brings the aircraft in a safe state. Having a bit of flaps out is less of a problem then having no flaps put at all. And things don't fail without reason.
Anyway I think the OT is confused, which normal checklist does he plan to do after retracting the flaps? The approach checklist? Cause in airbusworld there are no normal checklist's to perform after T/O except approach, landing and parking.
Generally speaking there are no normal checklists that need to be performed on airbus in flight, and if you do then they come after the ECAM (approach/landing).
Then you make sure aircraft is safe, don't want to climb to high. But you might be able to stay on departure route. Talk to atc what you are doing.
Then ECAM.
Then based on the completed ECAM, you will have to make a decision on what you do next.
NigelOnDraft maybe I misunderstand ur post, but you might see yourseld in an overspeed/underspeed situation sometime if you go about moving flaps regardless. How is that airmanship?
I would say that pulling speed is Airmanship, as it immediately brings the aircraft in a safe state. Having a bit of flaps out is less of a problem then having no flaps put at all. And things don't fail without reason.
Anyway I think the OT is confused, which normal checklist does he plan to do after retracting the flaps? The approach checklist? Cause in airbusworld there are no normal checklist's to perform after T/O except approach, landing and parking.
Generally speaking there are no normal checklists that need to be performed on airbus in flight, and if you do then they come after the ECAM (approach/landing).
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737Jock
Maybe I did not make it clear... I am not advocating touching the Flap Lever at all until everybody is 100% clear what is going on.
"Pulling Speed" might sound like a good immediate option, but even that needs thinking about. If you are F2/3, select F1 (above F speed) and get a problem, speed is likely well below S which is Config Speed for your selected Config - actual config "unknown" but somewhere between F1 and 2. Potentially a problem if Flaps are ~F1, speed near F
Maybe I did not make it clear... I am not advocating touching the Flap Lever at all until everybody is 100% clear what is going on.
"Pulling Speed" might sound like a good immediate option, but even that needs thinking about. If you are F2/3, select F1 (above F speed) and get a problem, speed is likely well below S which is Config Speed for your selected Config - actual config "unknown" but somewhere between F1 and 2. Potentially a problem if Flaps are ~F1, speed near F
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NigelOnDraft
You should know S, F, and displayed VFE come from flap lever and not from actual surface position so they are to be ignored when jam occurs. Only speed that matters and is correct is VLS. As long as you are above that and below calculated VFE for the flap position you don't have a problem. Airbus has clarified that all speeds up to VLS are safe and this subject has been discussed before. To calculate VFE if flap is stuck between 2 and 1 it will be 200KTS (next higher position). But when this occurs you don't start thinking but first pull speed. You may adjust it later. You will be well below the displayed S speed but that speed is invalid. After ECAM just follow landing with slat/flap jam procedure.
You should know S, F, and displayed VFE come from flap lever and not from actual surface position so they are to be ignored when jam occurs. Only speed that matters and is correct is VLS. As long as you are above that and below calculated VFE for the flap position you don't have a problem. Airbus has clarified that all speeds up to VLS are safe and this subject has been discussed before. To calculate VFE if flap is stuck between 2 and 1 it will be 200KTS (next higher position). But when this occurs you don't start thinking but first pull speed. You may adjust it later. You will be well below the displayed S speed but that speed is invalid. After ECAM just follow landing with slat/flap jam procedure.
Maybe we can agree upon "pull speed, then adjust (as required)".
Will also save you from a red face once transitioning to A330/340/350/380.
(with them pulling the speed knob gives you the current speed target rather than the actual speed...)
Will also save you from a red face once transitioning to A330/340/350/380.
(with them pulling the speed knob gives you the current speed target rather than the actual speed...)
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villas...
The OP has not specified "flap jam" but (any) "Flaps problem".
Are you suggesting that if, after say a F3 takeoff, you get a "FLAP SYS 2 FAULT" ECAM as you select F1 @ F speed, you "Pull speed" and continue at F speed, while SFCC 1 retracts to F1?
With certain Flap failures, I agree - "Pull Speed" is appropriate. As an automatic response to any "Flaps problem" I am afraid I do not agree...
The OP has not specified "flap jam" but (any) "Flaps problem".
Are you suggesting that if, after say a F3 takeoff, you get a "FLAP SYS 2 FAULT" ECAM as you select F1 @ F speed, you "Pull speed" and continue at F speed, while SFCC 1 retracts to F1?
With certain Flap failures, I agree - "Pull Speed" is appropriate. As an automatic response to any "Flaps problem" I am afraid I do not agree...
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Nigel
First thing, we don't do anything unless you identify the failure on ECAM. If it is FLT CTLS FLAPS FAULT/LOCKED then you pull speed. You are mixing up two different things. Your are referring to F/CTL SYS1(2) Fault. That does not cause flap jam. The ECAM action are different for that. Why would you pull speed when flaps are retracting. These are specific procedures. There is nothing like "any flap problem".
First thing, we don't do anything unless you identify the failure on ECAM. If it is FLT CTLS FLAPS FAULT/LOCKED then you pull speed. You are mixing up two different things. Your are referring to F/CTL SYS1(2) Fault. That does not cause flap jam. The ECAM action are different for that. Why would you pull speed when flaps are retracting. These are specific procedures. There is nothing like "any flap problem".
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To help inject some clarity...
FLAPS FAULT.... failure of both flap channels .. they stop moving.
FLAPS LOCKED..... they stop moving.
FLAPS SYS 1(2) FAULT .. They keep moving at half speed so no need to use selected speed except to avoid over speeding.
FLAPS FAULT.... failure of both flap channels .. they stop moving.
FLAPS LOCKED..... they stop moving.
FLAPS SYS 1(2) FAULT .. They keep moving at half speed so no need to use selected speed except to avoid over speeding.
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Boing prioritize the use of the checklists as follows:
Emergency (eng fire...)
Normal
Abnormal( flaps problems...)
Airbus has ECAM.
Question is if you have an ECAM flap fault after TO as you retract the flaps, will you proceed with the ECAM actions or you will continue until the flap lever has been raised to 0 (speed pull of course) , read the Normal checklist and then you will start the ECAM actions?
Emergency (eng fire...)
Normal
Abnormal( flaps problems...)
Airbus has ECAM.
Question is if you have an ECAM flap fault after TO as you retract the flaps, will you proceed with the ECAM actions or you will continue until the flap lever has been raised to 0 (speed pull of course) , read the Normal checklist and then you will start the ECAM actions?
first golden rule of Airbus : fly navigate communicate then manage in that order. Flying in that scenario means doing something to avoid damaging the blocked surface i.e to stop the airplane from accelerating further. Once that is taken care of, you focus on navigation and communication with your colleague (sharing plans and intentions). Finally you are in good shape to start the ECAM actions. Remember the ECAM discipline, ECAM first then QRH, FCOM (time permitting) and MEL (to contribute to your decision making). That schematic way of dealing with abnormals works for every failure despite what your background knowledge of the failure itself is.
Enjoy !
