crappy situation, advise needed A320
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crappy situation, advise needed A320
Hello again fellow aviators, i was in a crappy situation and im new, so i really appreciate some advise from the more experienced. Heres the situation, on descend, we were told to level off around FL340 and reduce speed to minimum due traffic ahead and below for sequencing. So i reduced speed to around greendot, VLS was very near as far as i can remember. Once cleared to descend, i went for open decend, we were obviously too high, but being above FL250, i was thinking hard, i cant extend gears, i cant extend flaps (FL200 limit), VLS was so near my target speed, i dare not use the speed brakes because the VLS will increase, i didn't know what to do, captain was getting pist, started shouting loudly, "Increase your speed a little and use your speed brakes!!!" i said okay capt, so i bumped up abit of speed, around 20 kts if i recall correctly, and started to use the speedbrakes gently, monitoring the VLS, at this point, Captain exploded, he yelled "SPEED BRAKES FULL!!!!, and he slammed my hand down the lever, i was like "Wow!" i was shocked and abit confused, scared because ive never seen anyone done this before. As far as i knew, part of emergency descend procedures is that after twist pull, twist pull, pull, announce FMA, speedbrakes full. Caution using speedbrakes, VLS increases significantly. But i never really studied what happens if you wack it full with VLS shooting up. Anyway, VLS shot up and speed kept increasing to remain above it. At this point i was blur as hell, i wasnt too sure what was happening. Is it ok to do that? what the captain asked me to? and can someone explain to me...what was happening please? thank you in advance
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Sounds like a crap captain to me! In that situation you were absolutely correct to be careful as you extend the speed brakes. If you really are looking to be crazy high it usually makes sense to ask ATC to allow you to briefly increase speed so as you can lose the height. ATC nearly always will let you do it briefly and then bring the speed back again. At low speeds the speedbrakes don't do much anyway!
Last edited by Blinkz; 29th Aug 2012 at 12:32.
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Things never change with some captains or instructors - simulator or real aeroplane. Screaming skulls are still around as this unfortunate A320 first officer found out. if nothing else, it proves that CRM and all that useless politically correct jazz is wasted on such characters because they never change.
Interestingly, I was reading a book called "From Farmyards to Beaufort Bogeys" by a former wartime Beaufort pilot who fought in the SW Pacific war. His name is Col Hobson. In it he makes scathing comment on one of his former flying instructors. In describing his early training as a RAAF trainee pilot on Tiger Moths, he wrote:
"Well, what happened was I learned to fly to the standard required and it turned out to be the biggest challenge of my life. On quite a few occasions , after a torrid sesion with an instructor, I would think `What the hell am I doing this for?' It would have been so easy to chicken out at this stage because all you had to do was deliberately fly badly for two or three sessions on Tiger Moths with an instructor, and you would find yourself transferred, preferably to a safe ground job. One particular instructor on Ansons was a pig of a man. Sharing a session or two with him he obviously thought I did not deserve to get my wings."
Col Hobson is now over 90 yet he remembers that bitter experience seventy years later. The adage "People may not remember what you did or what you said - but they will always remember how you made them feel," is as true in 2012 as it was in the 1940's.
As they grow older, most pilots have a clear recollection of "Bastards I have met" during their career whether airline, military or general aviation. The original poster is to be admired for putting his experience on Pprune.
Interestingly, I was reading a book called "From Farmyards to Beaufort Bogeys" by a former wartime Beaufort pilot who fought in the SW Pacific war. His name is Col Hobson. In it he makes scathing comment on one of his former flying instructors. In describing his early training as a RAAF trainee pilot on Tiger Moths, he wrote:
"Well, what happened was I learned to fly to the standard required and it turned out to be the biggest challenge of my life. On quite a few occasions , after a torrid sesion with an instructor, I would think `What the hell am I doing this for?' It would have been so easy to chicken out at this stage because all you had to do was deliberately fly badly for two or three sessions on Tiger Moths with an instructor, and you would find yourself transferred, preferably to a safe ground job. One particular instructor on Ansons was a pig of a man. Sharing a session or two with him he obviously thought I did not deserve to get my wings."
Col Hobson is now over 90 yet he remembers that bitter experience seventy years later. The adage "People may not remember what you did or what you said - but they will always remember how you made them feel," is as true in 2012 as it was in the 1940's.
As they grow older, most pilots have a clear recollection of "Bastards I have met" during their career whether airline, military or general aviation. The original poster is to be admired for putting his experience on Pprune.
Last edited by A37575; 29th Aug 2012 at 13:14.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Captain sounds like an ar$ehole. What you did was correct. Slamming full speed brake out can lead to their auto retraction if VLS increases significantly. If as a result of your scenario you end up high in the latter stages of the approach (< 20 nm) DON'T increase your speed - you just end up putting more energy into the aircraft. Slow and configure or ask ATC for a few extra track miles.
The Captain you were with should be ashamed of himself - what a truly awful example to set. Pathetic really.
A4
The Captain you were with should be ashamed of himself - what a truly awful example to set. Pathetic really.
A4
The Captain is obviously prehistoric in his attitude and CRM. I would suggest your initial acions were correct. If ATC want to to slow down and expedite, ask for extra track miles. You shouldn't compromise safe flight - not that the Airbus will let you. And don't let idiots such as him bully you.
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Thanks for the morale support fellow aviators, sadly its just the way it is for most companies in Asia, but for me, i have accepted the fact that time to time, i will have to put up with harsh and old school hardcore captains. So for that part, its disturbing at times but i try not to think about it...
What concerns me the most is how to fix that situation, to be honest, when "we" brought down the speed brakes lever to full, honestly i wasn't too sure if the speed started to increase alongside with the VLS, or the VLS shot up n stopped right before the target speed, all i knew that there was some sort of protection, my mind is rusty and i n im still cracking the manuals to find out what happened, but if any of you guys can explain to me a lil about it, i would really appreciate it.
Also, i appreciate some of the tips given from you guys, i also gave it a thought
Maybe:
1. I could ask ATC for a hold somewhere to reduce altitude and give the traffic ahead a better lead seperation?
2.Or inform ATC of my situation and request vectors for better spacing? as Dan Winterland suggested
3.or try to coordinate with the traffic ahead and ATC, if possible, request the traffic ahead to speed up? (but that wouldn't be too nice would it for the other guy? having to come in fast and configure after that)
What do you guys think? any other options or suggestions? im all open
What concerns me the most is how to fix that situation, to be honest, when "we" brought down the speed brakes lever to full, honestly i wasn't too sure if the speed started to increase alongside with the VLS, or the VLS shot up n stopped right before the target speed, all i knew that there was some sort of protection, my mind is rusty and i n im still cracking the manuals to find out what happened, but if any of you guys can explain to me a lil about it, i would really appreciate it.
Also, i appreciate some of the tips given from you guys, i also gave it a thought
Maybe:
1. I could ask ATC for a hold somewhere to reduce altitude and give the traffic ahead a better lead seperation?
2.Or inform ATC of my situation and request vectors for better spacing? as Dan Winterland suggested
3.or try to coordinate with the traffic ahead and ATC, if possible, request the traffic ahead to speed up? (but that wouldn't be too nice would it for the other guy? having to come in fast and configure after that)
What do you guys think? any other options or suggestions? im all open
Last edited by Airmen25; 29th Aug 2012 at 14:05.
To the first question as to what to do
Does your company have a no fly list?
Maybe if enough FOs get on it the Chief pilot will take some interst sorry you had to deal with such an dick...but it will help you to know exactly what type of captain you don't want to be!
As to the second you can't coodinate trafic---simply say 'unable' and let ATC deal with it...if you'd like to hold ask..but never put yourself in a hold voluntarily let ATC make you...just ask..and [hopefully] it shall be given unto you..Never let ATC dictate what you need to do--- try to help them when you can but don't let them fly your airplane for you-as many WILL try!
Does your company have a no fly list?
Maybe if enough FOs get on it the Chief pilot will take some interst sorry you had to deal with such an dick...but it will help you to know exactly what type of captain you don't want to be!
As to the second you can't coodinate trafic---simply say 'unable' and let ATC deal with it...if you'd like to hold ask..but never put yourself in a hold voluntarily let ATC make you...just ask..and [hopefully] it shall be given unto you..Never let ATC dictate what you need to do--- try to help them when you can but don't let them fly your airplane for you-as many WILL try!
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 29th Aug 2012 at 14:16.
Anytime partner...
one other thing I just thought of keep your learning active that way you can lecture the crappy captains in a pleasant way as to how stupid they're really being...
one other thing I just thought of keep your learning active that way you can lecture the crappy captains in a pleasant way as to how stupid they're really being...
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Flap 2, 180 knots selected will create a good sink rate. If you take speed brakes too it'll drop like a stone - SO BE CAREFUL < 4000'!
The secret is to act early. FMGC predictions are all well and good - provided the flight plan is sequenced, descent winds are inserted etc...... but always back it up with the basics i.e. 3 x your height + 5 miles to slow down (10 in the early days!) So at 15,000' you need (approx) 50-55 track miles.
If you can see you're already going slightly high on profile - act on it - early. Also look at the wind arrow on your ND headwind or tailwind - act accordingly. as others have said if ATC ask for something you can't comfortably achieve tell them.
Practice makes perfect - good luck.
A4
The secret is to act early. FMGC predictions are all well and good - provided the flight plan is sequenced, descent winds are inserted etc...... but always back it up with the basics i.e. 3 x your height + 5 miles to slow down (10 in the early days!) So at 15,000' you need (approx) 50-55 track miles.
If you can see you're already going slightly high on profile - act on it - early. Also look at the wind arrow on your ND headwind or tailwind - act accordingly. as others have said if ATC ask for something you can't comfortably achieve tell them.
Practice makes perfect - good luck.
A4
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Making a judgement on being high on profile above FL200 is a futile exercise at best. The best thing you can do is shake off whatever stress this overbearing captain caused you, and move on. Next time it happens, do exactly what your instinct tells you and don't worry about drastic measures until you are closer in. ATC will help you lose energy 99% of the time later in the approach.
Last edited by 777300ER; 29th Aug 2012 at 16:47.
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Before you 'hang' the Captain I had a different take -
Thinking about lowering the landing gear? At FL340? Thinking about extending flaps? Brings into the discussion, about using full speedbrakes, the emergency descent actions??? Where's this train of logic coming from?
Later he talks about maybe entering holding instead. On a different thread he mentioned a panicky call to stop because he thought the nose was going to extend past the hold line.
All of this from a guy that admits he's new, and his posts and questions underline that. So it's all the Captain's fault? That's the ruling from the mob that wasn't anywhere near the event?
Had an FO, 10,000+ hrs, get all excited about the hold short line passing below our LINE OF SIGHT. Not that we were going to cross it, but that it was disappearing from our forward field of view. GMAFB.
We can't see for about 50' in front of the a/c. So his standard would have us hold 50' short of every line?
For all we know, after several sectors, or days, of similar reasoning or judgement calls the Captain had reached the same state of mind (GMAFB). We've heard one side and he hardly qualifies as an expert, or unbiased, observer.
Thinking about lowering the landing gear? At FL340? Thinking about extending flaps? Brings into the discussion, about using full speedbrakes, the emergency descent actions??? Where's this train of logic coming from?
Later he talks about maybe entering holding instead. On a different thread he mentioned a panicky call to stop because he thought the nose was going to extend past the hold line.
All of this from a guy that admits he's new, and his posts and questions underline that. So it's all the Captain's fault? That's the ruling from the mob that wasn't anywhere near the event?
Had an FO, 10,000+ hrs, get all excited about the hold short line passing below our LINE OF SIGHT. Not that we were going to cross it, but that it was disappearing from our forward field of view. GMAFB.
We can't see for about 50' in front of the a/c. So his standard would have us hold 50' short of every line? For all we know, after several sectors, or days, of similar reasoning or judgement calls the Captain had reached the same state of mind (GMAFB). We've heard one side and he hardly qualifies as an expert, or unbiased, observer.
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You are right about me being new and not knowing much...infact some may call me a dumb pilot, for me, i don't care, im here to learn more and to get better at what i do, that is the reason in the first place i started asking questions.
Everything i told regarding the situation is as honest as i can remember. As i also said, i try not to think about the captain's part about exploding and getting pist at me, what matters to me is how to fix that situation if that were to happen again. I think most of the comments here isn't blaming the captain about the situation, but more about the way the captain carried himself, attitude wise and self control over emotions, and i strongly agree with all of them that he was going overboard at times. But like i said, all those isn't in my best interest or my research, its all about solving the problem, so in the end, captain won't get so pist off when the same situation occurs to us.
So i appreciate it if you don't take it so personally captain. I am here to learn, so if you will, teach me a bit on how to solve that situation, care to share some light about it captain?
Everything i told regarding the situation is as honest as i can remember. As i also said, i try not to think about the captain's part about exploding and getting pist at me, what matters to me is how to fix that situation if that were to happen again. I think most of the comments here isn't blaming the captain about the situation, but more about the way the captain carried himself, attitude wise and self control over emotions, and i strongly agree with all of them that he was going overboard at times. But like i said, all those isn't in my best interest or my research, its all about solving the problem, so in the end, captain won't get so pist off when the same situation occurs to us.
So i appreciate it if you don't take it so personally captain. I am here to learn, so if you will, teach me a bit on how to solve that situation, care to share some light about it captain?
'
Had an FO, 10,000+ hrs, get all excited about the hold short line passing below our LINE OF SIGHT. Not that we were going to cross it, but that it was disappearing from our forward field of view. GMAFB. We can't see for about 50' in front of the a/c. So his standard would have us hold 50' short of every line? '
Let me understand you correctly.
I think you are saying you passed the hold short line while taxiing as it went below your line of sight.
Don't know what type you are operating but most transport Aircraft Cockpits project a fair distance ahead of the nosewheel so you are past the hold line.
Or do you think, like some that if the nosewheel is short of the line then you are ?!
Had an FO, 10,000+ hrs, get all excited about the hold short line passing below our LINE OF SIGHT. Not that we were going to cross it, but that it was disappearing from our forward field of view. GMAFB. We can't see for about 50' in front of the a/c. So his standard would have us hold 50' short of every line? '
Let me understand you correctly.
I think you are saying you passed the hold short line while taxiing as it went below your line of sight.
Don't know what type you are operating but most transport Aircraft Cockpits project a fair distance ahead of the nosewheel so you are past the hold line.
Or do you think, like some that if the nosewheel is short of the line then you are ?!
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hey!
first- know that 99% of the replys are from non real commercial aviatiors even when they claim since its an open anonymous forum. second- do not get you rush by atc, there is always a second to think about it. third- follow the captain and discuss it after the event. you learn from every flight - the same he does !
try to keep relaxed, it comes with experience, cheers !
first- know that 99% of the replys are from non real commercial aviatiors even when they claim since its an open anonymous forum. second- do not get you rush by atc, there is always a second to think about it. third- follow the captain and discuss it after the event. you learn from every flight - the same he does !
try to keep relaxed, it comes with experience, cheers !
You are never going t change the Captains behaviour so concenrate on the things that you can influence.
1/ Your reaction to a shouting Captain (are you happy with your reaction, what will you do differently next time etc etc)
2/ Your knowledge. (You are already addressing this by asking a question on here but that will never be as effective as getting into your books and understanding your aircraft.)
1/ Your reaction to a shouting Captain (are you happy with your reaction, what will you do differently next time etc etc)
2/ Your knowledge. (You are already addressing this by asking a question on here but that will never be as effective as getting into your books and understanding your aircraft.)
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stilton - w/b aircraft. We were obviously short of the hold short line. Radome short of the line. Nose gear is 8-10' behind us. Radome to nose gear is 20'.
During pushback we can never see the tug. On the walk around it's obvious that the tug is forward of the end of the radome.
Recent FO said "I can't get over how it looks like we're going off into the grass. I know the nose gear is far behind us but I still can't get over it."
With a blind spot extending 50' ahead of us we never see the taxiway edges immediately ahead of us while doing 90 turns on taxiways. The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet.
During pushback we can never see the tug. On the walk around it's obvious that the tug is forward of the end of the radome.
Recent FO said "I can't get over how it looks like we're going off into the grass. I know the nose gear is far behind us but I still can't get over it."
With a blind spot extending 50' ahead of us we never see the taxiway edges immediately ahead of us while doing 90 turns on taxiways. The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet.
Last edited by misd-agin; 30th Aug 2012 at 01:21.
first- know that 99% of the replys are from non real commercial aviatiors
even when they claim since its an open anonymous forum
If you think 99% of us are fake why do you bother even coming to here?
If you really can't tell who knows what they are talking about or not don't you think that you may have chosen the wrong profession?
Just saying...
