Once a pilot - now a computer's sidekick
A few people here still don't get it. Of course you can hand fly but with most companies SOP's it loads up the non-flying pilot to the detriment of his primary role of monitoring and cross-checking.
If a support pilot struggles and his capacity is sapped in this role, how will he perform if I have a multiple failure where automation is degraded?
I am expected, as an airline pilot, to perform and put the aircraft safely on the ground when faced with all the multi-failure scenarios. Raw data proficiency in suitable conditions, keeps me honed not only in elemental flying skills, but also in other areas of flight deck performance. For example, it is a skill in itself to not load up your support pilot and to run checklists at suitable times and to manage the workload appropriately.
If I have double hydraulics failure or fly in emergency configuration for example, I need the high levels of capacity to hand fly the aeroplane and manage what could be a MPL/300 hour cadet who's hands will be trying to go everywhere. The outfit I fly with has had two self induced double hydraulic failures due poor flight deck coordination.
A raw data approach every month is enough for me to maintain some of these important skills!
I like this story from early days. New F/O comes whistling around the corner in an A320 at Epping. Weather fluctuating about the minima. Autopilot off, flight directors off, autothrust off.....raw data approach.
Old Captain leans over and re-instates the automatics and the aircraft flys a coupled approach and lands from the minima. On the ground Capt asks the F/O WTF were you doing? F/O explains that in the RAAF they were told to do their raw data flying when they were tired and the weather the worst, to heighten the training value!
I would expect we all realize the inappropriateness of the above; that's what the simulators are for. Hand flying on the line should be a normal currency. Sadly, the big deal that's been made of it, has the new generation terrified of hand flying and they are some of the quickest draws in getting that autopilot in straight after T/O.
Is this thread for real!?
Great article, thanks.
Re the worldwide pervasive over use and reliance on automation this is well worth a look by all pilots airline training departments and managements.
This talk was given at American Airlines training centre in 1997.
How much worse have things gotten in this regard since then??? How many accidents??
Children of Magenta, well worth 25min of your time.
Re the worldwide pervasive over use and reliance on automation this is well worth a look by all pilots airline training departments and managements.
This talk was given at American Airlines training centre in 1997.
How much worse have things gotten in this regard since then??? How many accidents??
Children of Magenta, well worth 25min of your time.
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I don't understand why PM's get overloaded when the automatics are off. You have one system less that you have to monitor 
If you feel that you need to monitor the flight parameters more than you need to with automatics engaged, then you have too much confidence in the automatics.
If you feel that you need to monitor the flight parameters more than you need to with automatics engaged, then you have too much confidence in the automatics.
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@teresa green
A simple question; how do you imagine the pax feel during an incident like this? I and my family experienced an in flight situation on an ME based airline which was most certainly not normal, and this was not helped by the lack of information / reassurance from the pointy end.
http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...6-doh-kul.html
To this day I can imagine the PNF sleeping in his left seat, whilst the PF (an individual from the sub-continent) tried to work up the courage to decide whether to:
1.Wake up the PNF and ask him what he should do.
2.Try to figure out which buttons he should press to correct the situation.
Apparently he did neither, because we rocked and rolled all over the sky intermitently until we reached KUL.
Not a very pleasant or confidence buliding experience I can assure you.
Automation is fine, but it should not be regarded as a substitute for human skill and intuition, which no machine or computer can ever adequately replicate.
At first elation, then relief, then self doubt, followed by the fact that you had just faced your own mortality, and you look at your family and be grateful.
http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...6-doh-kul.html
To this day I can imagine the PNF sleeping in his left seat, whilst the PF (an individual from the sub-continent) tried to work up the courage to decide whether to:
1.Wake up the PNF and ask him what he should do.
2.Try to figure out which buttons he should press to correct the situation.
Apparently he did neither, because we rocked and rolled all over the sky intermitently until we reached KUL.
Not a very pleasant or confidence buliding experience I can assure you.
Automation is fine, but it should not be regarded as a substitute for human skill and intuition, which no machine or computer can ever adequately replicate.
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And maybe airlines pilots* could stop making a fool of new recruits, coming from Air Forces where they flew fighters, trainers, liaison aircraft, did in flight-refuelling, air combat, close formation take-off and landings, air displays, short-field landings with NVG, low level tactical navigations, para droppings, carrier landings (and even ILS auto)
From my own memory and colleagues experience, airline pilots are always very good in explaining to you how it was to fly fighters, when they don't have the slightest clue about the job... which doesn't prevent them to consider you are not fit for the job of flying crates from A to B on autopilot... (I'm now a wide-body Captain, for info - and I have done years ago barrel rolls with transport aircraft, yes not difficult it's exactly like a barrel roll in fighters with a wingman in close formation .... so much for handling skills)
So the solution is : recruit more ex-fighter pilots, who got through a real selection, and didn't pay for their job.
I fortunately have a lot of very proficient colleagues in the airlines, of all origins.
(*) by airline pilots, I mean those systems monitoring officers and button-pushers who are the subject of this topic.
From my own memory and colleagues experience, airline pilots are always very good in explaining to you how it was to fly fighters, when they don't have the slightest clue about the job... which doesn't prevent them to consider you are not fit for the job of flying crates from A to B on autopilot... (I'm now a wide-body Captain, for info - and I have done years ago barrel rolls with transport aircraft, yes not difficult it's exactly like a barrel roll in fighters with a wingman in close formation .... so much for handling skills)
So the solution is : recruit more ex-fighter pilots, who got through a real selection, and didn't pay for their job.
I fortunately have a lot of very proficient colleagues in the airlines, of all origins.
(*) by airline pilots, I mean those systems monitoring officers and button-pushers who are the subject of this topic.
Last edited by Reinhardt; 23rd Jul 2012 at 17:05.
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@virginexcess:
That's demonstrably false, since training is already changing, as reported by some pilots here.
Training and recurrent proficiency are a cost to the airline and affect somebody's KPI's. Until the accident rate climbs to a level that the bean counters find unacceptable, they won't throw one extra dollar at it.
Last edited by Organfreak; 24th Jul 2012 at 01:05.
A brilliant discussion. So many opinions. Just what pprune should be about.
Yes Amos this is for real. Very real.
What hasn't been mentioned here much is the lawyers rather than the accountants. As I see it as PIC, is that every time you remove automatics without reason, on a revenue flight, just to 'practice' your skills, you leave yourself wide open to criticism/blame.
If something does go wrong, even just an FDM event, you have to be able to justify removing a layer of safety. How do you answer, when the insurance lawyer asks you why you went against the manufacturer, and airlines advice to use the automation as much as possible? It seems to be in all FCOMS and OMs I have seen.
Fatigue/tiredness is the biggest problem today in airlines. They know it, hence the instruction to maximise automation. It's not ideal, but it's what we have to live with.
The simulator should be used to practice for line flying, not the other way around!
Yes Amos this is for real. Very real.
What hasn't been mentioned here much is the lawyers rather than the accountants. As I see it as PIC, is that every time you remove automatics without reason, on a revenue flight, just to 'practice' your skills, you leave yourself wide open to criticism/blame.
If something does go wrong, even just an FDM event, you have to be able to justify removing a layer of safety. How do you answer, when the insurance lawyer asks you why you went against the manufacturer, and airlines advice to use the automation as much as possible? It seems to be in all FCOMS and OMs I have seen.
Fatigue/tiredness is the biggest problem today in airlines. They know it, hence the instruction to maximise automation. It's not ideal, but it's what we have to live with.
The simulator should be used to practice for line flying, not the other way around!
And maybe airlines pilots* could stop making a fool of new recruits, coming from Air Forces where they flew fighters, trainers, liaison aircraft, did in flight-refuelling, air combat, close formation take-off and landings, air displays, short-field landings with NVG, low level tactical navigations, para droppings, carrier landings (and even ILS auto)
From my own memory and colleagues experience, airline pilots are always very good in explaining to you how it was to fly fighters, when they don't have the slightest clue about the job... which doesn't prevent them to consider you are not fit for the job of flying crates from A to B on autopilot... (I'm now a wide-body Captain, for info - and I have done years ago barrel rolls with transport aircraft, yes not difficult it's exactly like a barrel roll in fighters with a wingman in close formation .... so much for handling skills)
So the solution is : recruit more ex-fighter pilots, who got through a real selection, and didn't pay for their job.
I fortunately have a lot of very proficient colleagues in the airlines, of all origins.
(*) by airline pilots, I mean those systems monitoring officers and button-pushers who are the subject of this topic.
From my own memory and colleagues experience, airline pilots are always very good in explaining to you how it was to fly fighters, when they don't have the slightest clue about the job... which doesn't prevent them to consider you are not fit for the job of flying crates from A to B on autopilot... (I'm now a wide-body Captain, for info - and I have done years ago barrel rolls with transport aircraft, yes not difficult it's exactly like a barrel roll in fighters with a wingman in close formation .... so much for handling skills)
So the solution is : recruit more ex-fighter pilots, who got through a real selection, and didn't pay for their job.
I fortunately have a lot of very proficient colleagues in the airlines, of all origins.
(*) by airline pilots, I mean those systems monitoring officers and button-pushers who are the subject of this topic.
I've found a number of ex-fighter pilots to be average to sometimes dangerous as airline pilots. Especially if they are from non-Western air forces.
That said, some are very gifted and stand-outs.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 24th Jul 2012 at 05:07.
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I believe that most of us, if not all, will agree that the airplane must be flown first. It's an age old saying being passed on by flight instructors for decades: Aviate, Navigate then Communicate. The power of simplicity...if only it could be easily perceived.
Fighter pilots do have a tendency to 'drive' planes more than flying them which is why some find their flying style with airliners a little reckless. There's a stark weight and maneuverability difference between a fighter and an airliner! But I think the boys from the transporter/heavy-lift category might be good with civilian jets.
There are pilots to let the AP handle things after 400 feet and there are some who take it by hand up to the first level portion of the DP or until they're in a stable climb. Usually, the latter are the better pilots qualitatively.
Fighter pilots do have a tendency to 'drive' planes more than flying them which is why some find their flying style with airliners a little reckless. There's a stark weight and maneuverability difference between a fighter and an airliner! But I think the boys from the transporter/heavy-lift category might be good with civilian jets.
There are pilots to let the AP handle things after 400 feet and there are some who take it by hand up to the first level portion of the DP or until they're in a stable climb. Usually, the latter are the better pilots qualitatively.
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I know it's hard to admit but automation has made revenue flying much, much safer
I hate to think what would happen if , by some wave of the magic wand, we were taken back 30 years................
just look at the stats
Of course we now suffer different accidents but (especially given the massive rise in route kms) we suffer fewer accidents
if you still want to hand fly go out and buy a share in a light plane
I hate to think what would happen if , by some wave of the magic wand, we were taken back 30 years................
just look at the stats
Of course we now suffer different accidents but (especially given the massive rise in route kms) we suffer fewer accidents
if you still want to hand fly go out and buy a share in a light plane
Harry, that's silly. Nobody's suggesting we go back 30 years. And GPWS has probably had the most impact on reducing accident rates, combined with database approaches. However your suggestion that we do not address one of the last remaining and now major cause of accidents, LOC (because of incompetent hand-flying), is sticking your head in the sand.
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Reading this thread I am really glad I managed to get hired by the company I'm with right now.
I'm as rookie as rookies can get, sporting about 150 hours on the 320 just now.
AP off / ATHR off / FD off is SOP and the FD will only come on if the Wx is really bad or you are feeling unfit.
And too be honest I'm still feeling a bit paranoid about losing skill because I'm not flying full procedures / manual holdings like back at school. I can't imagine how insecure I'd feel if I'd have to d/c the AP in short final every approach...
I'm as rookie as rookies can get, sporting about 150 hours on the 320 just now.
AP off / ATHR off / FD off is SOP and the FD will only come on if the Wx is really bad or you are feeling unfit.
And too be honest I'm still feeling a bit paranoid about losing skill because I'm not flying full procedures / manual holdings like back at school. I can't imagine how insecure I'd feel if I'd have to d/c the AP in short final every approach...
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How hard is the redesign to tactically couple the side sticks? That *has* to be done. The entire DC-10 fleet was grounded after AA191. In my opinion the decoupled controls are a fundamental design flaw as dangerous as bunched hydraulic systems, and more likely to make itself felt in an emergency when both pilots are pumped and fighting for their very human lives.
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TM quote
It's impossible to be rid of this behavior. People who use computers in all contexts will simply sit and stare or fumble about when trouble comes, even experts, even the very people who are in charge of operating them. I have seen programmers stare at the screen for minutes pondering the unexpected behavior of their own work. The man/computer interface involving button pushing and knob twiddling is not suitable for a high demand activity such as handling an emergency.
IMO the entire thing should be reduced to a few instantly accessible modes 1) leave me alone I'm flying this airplane 2) help me out a little here 3) I'll help you out here 4) you fly, I'm taking a rest 5) TOGA 6) autoland. Thrust, trim, and controls should all replicate the time-honored and physically debugged act of manual flying at all times.
This does not mean the computer cannot be active in a smoothing sense even when 1) is selected. No efficiency would be lost. The beanies would be mollified. The computer could also act in an advisory capacity, suggesting optimal performance configuration in manual mode. But the real issue is the interface.
The captain then applied full manual braking and reverse thrust was engaged with 1,500 ft of runway remaining - an action which automatically deployed the speed brakes. The aircraft left the runway and rolled 200 ft into grass. None of the 139 passengers and crew members were injured in the 26 April 2011 incident.
What is the solution to this type of crass bad airmanship? Because in all probability it is not just an isolated incident. Some would recommend more still automation. Others may see it differently.
What is the solution to this type of crass bad airmanship? Because in all probability it is not just an isolated incident. Some would recommend more still automation. Others may see it differently.
IMO the entire thing should be reduced to a few instantly accessible modes 1) leave me alone I'm flying this airplane 2) help me out a little here 3) I'll help you out here 4) you fly, I'm taking a rest 5) TOGA 6) autoland. Thrust, trim, and controls should all replicate the time-honored and physically debugged act of manual flying at all times.
This does not mean the computer cannot be active in a smoothing sense even when 1) is selected. No efficiency would be lost. The beanies would be mollified. The computer could also act in an advisory capacity, suggesting optimal performance configuration in manual mode. But the real issue is the interface.
Last edited by deSitter; 24th Jul 2012 at 14:50.
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I am a great believer in pilots being able to hand fly and this is what I do with guys once they get comfortable with jet ( about 200hrs) I then introduce raw data, ILS, then Flying vectors at night and then take the map modes off (all over a few months) most guys that fly with me can now fly raw data hand flown dme arcs to vor/ils arrivals all with just HSI! no map mode on at all and it seems to really widen their situational awareness as well.
All these guys are 200 hr guys initially and it can be taught but it needs captains who are willing to let guys do it as you may have to tell them to go around or take the controls back off of them. I have never set off the OFDM and have seen some pretty atrocious approaches but i would rather see them in a controlled enviroment than on a dark stormy night!!
If you can't fly a modern jet like it was piston twin should you really be in the seat anyway!
All these guys are 200 hr guys initially and it can be taught but it needs captains who are willing to let guys do it as you may have to tell them to go around or take the controls back off of them. I have never set off the OFDM and have seen some pretty atrocious approaches but i would rather see them in a controlled enviroment than on a dark stormy night!!
If you can't fly a modern jet like it was piston twin should you really be in the seat anyway!
Last edited by SFI145; 25th Jul 2012 at 04:51.
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how many commanders will let their FO hand fly from T/O to at least 10,000ft , and from 10,000ft to Landing? (raw data, without the FDs, Without APs, And Manual Thrust? )
and how many of you guys actually notices the thrust setting during cruise for a particular speed and weight? most guys just make sure the speed doesn't go too fast or too slow. If something like AF447 were to happen again, and the pilots instantly takes over control and maintain S&L, does he know what trust setting to set for that particular weight? (oh yeah, i know WHAT to do, but HOW to do it?
many of the commanders are in their comfort zone, and are not willing to let the other guy screw up their DAY by having to G/A because of unstabilized approaches, or some other screw ups.
one days, these FO will be a commander, and they TOO won't let their FO hand fly because they themselves lacked the confidence.
the training department of Aircraft Manufacturers and Airlines worldwide should take action and change this.
It started with Airbus, now Boeing is going into that direction too.
and how many of you guys actually notices the thrust setting during cruise for a particular speed and weight? most guys just make sure the speed doesn't go too fast or too slow. If something like AF447 were to happen again, and the pilots instantly takes over control and maintain S&L, does he know what trust setting to set for that particular weight? (oh yeah, i know WHAT to do, but HOW to do it?
many of the commanders are in their comfort zone, and are not willing to let the other guy screw up their DAY by having to G/A because of unstabilized approaches, or some other screw ups.
one days, these FO will be a commander, and they TOO won't let their FO hand fly because they themselves lacked the confidence.
the training department of Aircraft Manufacturers and Airlines worldwide should take action and change this.
It started with Airbus, now Boeing is going into that direction too.
Last edited by 320wonder; 25th Jul 2012 at 13:45.