WHY DIFFERENT MDA FOR CIRCLING APP ON RECIPROCAL R/Ws
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: india
Age: 59
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WHY DIFFERENT MDA FOR CIRCLING APP ON RECIPROCAL R/Ws
hi
I understand that MDA for circling approach is applicable subsequent to an airfield app aid instrument procedure (non electronic glide path).
Then on breaking off from lets say 09 VOR app I can choose to circle to land on 09 ( if straight in criteria not met) or 27.
How come then on some app plates there are different MDA for circle to land for 09 & 27.
Am I missing something ?
thanx in advance
I understand that MDA for circling approach is applicable subsequent to an airfield app aid instrument procedure (non electronic glide path).
Then on breaking off from lets say 09 VOR app I can choose to circle to land on 09 ( if straight in criteria not met) or 27.
How come then on some app plates there are different MDA for circle to land for 09 & 27.
Am I missing something ?
thanx in advance
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stubby1:
Do you have a specific example?
I understand that MDA for circling approach is applicable subsequent to an airfield app aid instrument procedure (non electronic glide path).
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: home
Age: 41
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it has to do with flying the missed approach procedure for the the initial Instrument Approach.
For example at Dublin
Flying the VOR approach to 16 for a circle to land at 34
We set the minimas for 16 as this was the approach we flew and it will be the go around procedure we follow at any stage during the procedure.
The go around for 16 is climb on track 155 degrees to Killiney climbing 3000feet
Whereas the go around for 34 is climb straight ahead to 3000 and contact ATC
So even if we are at 300 feet on finals to 34 and ATC say go around we must follow the procedure for RW 16 which is climb turn and track 155 to killiney.
I know at dublin the circle to land MDAs for 16 and 34 are the same but maybe this might help
I hope I understood ur question right.
For example at Dublin
Flying the VOR approach to 16 for a circle to land at 34
We set the minimas for 16 as this was the approach we flew and it will be the go around procedure we follow at any stage during the procedure.
The go around for 16 is climb on track 155 degrees to Killiney climbing 3000feet
Whereas the go around for 34 is climb straight ahead to 3000 and contact ATC
So even if we are at 300 feet on finals to 34 and ATC say go around we must follow the procedure for RW 16 which is climb turn and track 155 to killiney.
I know at dublin the circle to land MDAs for 16 and 34 are the same but maybe this might help
I hope I understood ur question right.
Depends on the position of the critical obstruction that affects each runway. Quite common to see different circling MDA for each runway.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
d105:
That, and more typically, a high obstacle that can be isolated by sectorizing circling minimums, or even prohibiting circling in a particular sector. But, the procedure makes this clear.
At some airports the circling minima's are different because of neighbouring noise sensitive zones.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: engineer at large
Posts: 1,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hold patterns can be an art form in procedure design. There are many, many variables.
Sometimes the MDA is set using terrain/obstacles, ATC may set the MDA for conflicts, and other times, it will be set to help facilitate the approach MVA.
There are numerous hold pattern templates (the FAA has 31 hold patterns) to use, driven by aircraft class, altitude, and holding speeds/turn radius/bank angle limitations, therefore the size of the hold pattern may also drive the MDA.
There are also engine out hold patterns...
Sometimes the MDA is set using terrain/obstacles, ATC may set the MDA for conflicts, and other times, it will be set to help facilitate the approach MVA.
There are numerous hold pattern templates (the FAA has 31 hold patterns) to use, driven by aircraft class, altitude, and holding speeds/turn radius/bank angle limitations, therefore the size of the hold pattern may also drive the MDA.
There are also engine out hold patterns...
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 11th Mar 2011 at 20:11. Reason: revised wording
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by aslan1982
We set the minimas for 16
So even if we are at 300 feet on finals to 34 and ATC say go around we must follow the procedure for RW 16 which is climb turn and track 155 to killiney.
Obstacles and Noise areas are only going to force different MDAs if you mandate a particular circuit direction. For example, if there is an obstacle to the east of the runway, then all circling could/would be at the same MDA on the western side, regardless of landing direction.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting
Although the MDA is based on obstacles within an area defined by tangents connecting circles draw around the runway thresholds, it occurs to me that the obstacle clearance of the let down procedure itself also interferes.
With this in mind you could expect a different circling MDA, limited by a VOR let down Rwy 09 circling 27 then on an ILS let down 27 circling 09.
I am puzzled
With this in mind you could expect a different circling MDA, limited by a VOR let down Rwy 09 circling 27 then on an ILS let down 27 circling 09.
I am puzzled
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: india
Age: 59
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aviators
am still perplexed. Assume a vor proc which breaks off at an angle to r/w.
First is it not true that shooting vor app for r/w 09 , when i break off at MDA I have a choice of circle to land on 09 or 27(where straight in not possible ).
Now the vor char for 09 on which i did the procedure gives me a circle to land min. should i use it to cicle to land on 27 or 09 itself
Added to this is my Q, why then have diff min.
am still perplexed. Assume a vor proc which breaks off at an angle to r/w.
First is it not true that shooting vor app for r/w 09 , when i break off at MDA I have a choice of circle to land on 09 or 27(where straight in not possible ).
Now the vor char for 09 on which i did the procedure gives me a circle to land min. should i use it to cicle to land on 27 or 09 itself
Added to this is my Q, why then have diff min.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: home
Age: 41
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BOAC
- well, if you did that in the UK you would have your bottom smacked!
So what minimias do you use. In the case of Dublin for example
So even if we are at 300 feet on finals to 34 and ATC say go around we must follow the procedure for RW 16 which is climb turn and track 155 to killiney.
- why not ask to stay in the circuit?
we must follow the procedures in our ops manual. We cant just do half a go around into a visual circuit. Well its not recommended.
In our circling approach for a go around we make a climbing turn in the shortest direction towards the landing runway and execute the missed approach
- well, if you did that in the UK you would have your bottom smacked!
So what minimias do you use. In the case of Dublin for example
So even if we are at 300 feet on finals to 34 and ATC say go around we must follow the procedure for RW 16 which is climb turn and track 155 to killiney.
- why not ask to stay in the circuit?
we must follow the procedures in our ops manual. We cant just do half a go around into a visual circuit. Well its not recommended.
In our circling approach for a go around we make a climbing turn in the shortest direction towards the landing runway and execute the missed approach
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what minimias do you use.
I would suggest that to fly a full IFR g/a from `1 mile visual final WITHOUT asking to stay in the circuit is bordering on madness!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stuby1
I agree. What I meant is that the MDA of a NP might be higher than the MDA based on the obstacles in the circling area. For example a NP based on a VOR that is not on the field in combination with a low intensity approach light system.
This might explain why the circling via an ILS on 27 might bring you down to an MDA based on obstacles within the circling area while the VOR on 09 is not able to bring you down to the same MDA as the ILS.
I am just trying to figure out where the original question is based on.
This might explain why the circling via an ILS on 27 might bring you down to an MDA based on obstacles within the circling area while the VOR on 09 is not able to bring you down to the same MDA as the ILS.
I am just trying to figure out where the original question is based on.
I'd say varying circling minima can be due to a number of obstacle and/or navaid constraints. There are limits to the gradients allowed for different sections of the approach so an obstacle from one direction on final could impose a limit that doesn't occur from another direction. MDA has to allow for the missed approach gradient so an obstacle could intrude into one runway's missed approach but not into another's.
Approach type could make a difference too. Different approaches have to consider different tolerances leading to different obstacle considerations.
Approach type could make a difference too. Different approaches have to consider different tolerances leading to different obstacle considerations.
As Centaurus stated
And as Tinstaafl has also stated,
The MDA whether for a circling approach or a straight in approach is firstly dependant on the critical obstacles affecting either the approach or the missed approach gradients. The critical obstacles are often not the obstacles within the circling area for the particular performance category of aircraft. However once visual an aircraft on a circling approach is then subject to the rules applying to vertical obstacle clearance along the flight path and the visibility criteria determined by the procedure designer.
Hope this helps clarify the problem.
Blackburn
Depends on the position of the critical obstruction that affects each runway. Quite common to see different circling MDA for each runway
an obstacle could intrude into one runway's missed approach but not into another’s
Hope this helps clarify the problem.
Blackburn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: india
Age: 59
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FRIENDS
Pl look up vor for 08 & 26 VOBZ vijaywada. (how do i get the figure on this mail ?!!)
If i were to break off from vor 08, & circle to land 26, which MDA do i use for cirling. I am following the vor 08 chart & it gives me ;x; height for circle to land. but then the vor 26 chart gives me :y: height.
Guys , as the chart for 08 is in front ,i guess i should follow circling ht i see on it...x: ...but aint i doing circling for 26 ?? shud i flip the chart to vor 26 to take the circling ht :y:
AM TRULLY FOXED. WHAT WUD U DO ???
Pl look up vor for 08 & 26 VOBZ vijaywada. (how do i get the figure on this mail ?!!)
If i were to break off from vor 08, & circle to land 26, which MDA do i use for cirling. I am following the vor 08 chart & it gives me ;x; height for circle to land. but then the vor 26 chart gives me :y: height.
Guys , as the chart for 08 is in front ,i guess i should follow circling ht i see on it...x: ...but aint i doing circling for 26 ?? shud i flip the chart to vor 26 to take the circling ht :y:
AM TRULLY FOXED. WHAT WUD U DO ???