Sidesteping in a A320 (Max taxi speed and landing callout)

[pezetaroi]

Hi guys, I was wondering if your company has any written procedure regarding the FMGS active FPLN in a sidestep approach.

There is a bit of a controversy whether or not to activate the secondary flight plan when you are cleared for a sidestep approach and are aprox at 5 to 7nm from the runway.

I have donde several of this type in LAX, SFO and basically in MEX. The point is that even though both runways have the same missed appoach procedure, I think you should activate the SEC FLPN with the runway you are actually landing in. Nevertheless, there are several pilots who leave the active FLPN as it is, and simply continue the approach as a visual one.

What do have to say about this?

cheers

ps: also:
1) Is 30 kts still the maximum taxi speed, even though you are back taxiing on a active runway?
2) I understand the "CONTINUE" callout at minimums is a confirmation of the PF to the PNF that he is landing the aircraft. As visual approaches don't have a minimum, after the landing configuration, where should the callout "CONTINUE" be made? ( I recall when I flew the 727, there was a "LANDING" callout, which had to be made either at minumums or at 500 ft in case of visual landings)

[Slasher]

there are several pilots who leave the active FLPN as it is,
and simply continue the approach as a visual one.

Put me down as one of the "several". I can quite easily fly a
sidestep approach visually without the need for a FMC, and
even with the FD's off!

The point is that even though both runways have the same
missed appoach procedure, I think you should activate the
SEC FLPN with the runway you are actually landing in.

Why do you want to push buttons all the way down final
when your head should be either outside or monitoring
the instruments? If you've flown the 727 as you say, why
the sudden reliance on the FMGC gizmo?

[MadDog Driver]

My Goodness

Have we gotten to the place, where pilots sit head down reprogramming the thing at 1500-2000 ' for a sidestep. I am beginning to thing, that Airbus is leading this profession into a dangerous place.

Pezetaroi...please dont do that. Look out and land the thing. It's just an airplane.

Amen Slasher

[Bus Driver Man]

Have we gotten to the place, where pilots sit head down reprogramming the thing at 1500-2000 ' for a sidestep. I am beginning to thing, that Airbus is leading this profession into a dangerous place.

I wonder what Airbus has to do with this.
Now I could be wrong here, but last time I've checked Boeing also has a FMS.
To activate a secondary flightplan you have to press two buttons. It takes a second or two. If a PNF is not able to perfom this simple task while the PF is flying visual, he shouldn't be in an airplane.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that you have to activate the SEC FPLN with the runway you're landing on, I'm just saying that it's a simple task.

I like to keep the correct go around routing (so the original approach and rwy) in the FMGS, regardless of which runway I'm landing on.

[pezetaroi]

The point is that, nothing will really happen if you just fly visually and land, but I do think, the FMGS should agree with the actual landing runway.

I wonder what would an insurance company would have to say if you happen to skid off the runway, and the FMGS has another runway in the database? Have you thought about that?

I know this topic is not that relevant, but as an Airbus pilot, and as the manufacturer is trying for us to "operate", every single procedure must be done as listed in the FCOM/FCTM etc.

The FCOM4 states that on visual approaches the landing runway should be inserted on the active flight plan, so what to do?

[411A]

Just telephoned the KPHX Tracon and asked...'IF a sidestep is required by the local controller, what IFR missed approach is expected to be flown, if necessary, and no further instructions are passed to the landing airplane?

The positive answer from the Tracon supervisor...' The missed approach procedure for the original instrument landing runway, not the sidestep visual runway assigned by the local controller'.


Might be different elsewhere, but, this is what we do, worldwide...like it or not.

So, I would respectfully suggest...land the friggin' airplane, and STOP pressing buttons in the last few hundred feet, agl.

Of course, I expect the 'younger set' just can't help themselves.

[shortfuel]

My company has no specific instruction on that procedure.

As a general rule, it's better to have your actual landing rwy in your primary.
Having said that, side-step are usually 'offered' by TWR late on final.
Airmanship would suggest to keep both heads up and fly it visually as prescribed.

If you're just to side-step on a parallel rwy (within 30 deg), you're still covered with you GS mini function.

If you feel/need to change your rwy at this stage, 1000' could be a sensible limit for any mcdu input (as in LVP ops philosophy).

In theory, if you have to go-around without specific instruction, you must follow your instrument missed approach proc.
In real life, competent ATCO will clear any doubt beforehand by giving you on final specific instruction should you need to G/A.

For your other questions:
1) Yes, company proc...even for rwy backtrack...
2) "Continue" call is just a confirmation that we're not going around , 500' AAL...but again company proc.

[Meikleour]

pezetaroi: have you considered what the GPWS will be referenced to with respect to LOC and GS deviation as you fly the side-slip if you have the incorrect landing runway still active? So either switch the flight plans or inhibit the GPWS. What does your company SOPs have to say about that?

[Bus Driver Man]

The FCOM4 states that on visual approaches the landing runway should be inserted on the active flight plan, so what to do?

Where does it say that you should? All I can find is: "When flying visual, the pilot may select an appropriate STAR and RWY in use on the MCDU"
FCOM 4.05.70 p29
No reference for sidestep.

For a normal visual approach it makes sense that you select the landing RWY but don't make it too hard on yourself in case you have to do a go around without the correct routing in the box after a sidestep.
You are ofcourse free to have whatever you want to have in the FMGS.

[FatFlyer]

Hi,
While it would be nice to go back to the days of " looking out the window and flying the plane" when we were real pilots instead of button pushers, we are required by our company to have the landing runway set so the flight data people can check that the approach is stable. Checking that we are operating to sop and safely( as well as an insurance discount)
Not having it set would show us not on horizontal and vertical profile and provoke a call from the flight data police.
This is the modern way, big brother is watching.

[shortfuel]

Originally Posted by Meikleour

have you considered what the GPWS will be referenced to with respect to LOC and GS deviation as you fly the side-slip if you have the incorrect landing runway still active? So either switch the flight plans or inhibit the GPWS.

You're kidding right? Switching off the entire GPWS in order to fly a visual approach?!

How about Bird On, FDs Off, LS p/b Off. More than enough. Chance to get a GPWS G/S is very remote...if you really want to inhibit it, just inhibit G/S function but not the entire GPWS system.


FatFlyer,

AFAIK, side-step is still a normal/routine visual approach. Having a call from FDM should not be an issue in that specific case. As long as you know what you are doing and have flown a stabilized approach, a normal FDM dpt would understand easily.
Modern aviation does not preclude from flying airplanes.
But I understand this is company policy...so....

[Ndicho Moja]

How long does it take to change the runway in the MCDU? Four key strokes and about as many seconds.

[MadDog Driver]

Bus Driver man

I wonder what Airbus has to do with this

Well ok. Not the airplane then. But the way lots of Airbus pilots are taught to fly the Airbus then. Let's just say I spend a lot of time on jumpseats. You do spend more energy on those two little things in an Airbus, than most other people...and I think it's downright stupid to be sitting there programming at 1500 feet in VMC. What happened to flying the airplane. Something you just dont do enough of in an Airbus. Thats what I meant. You could of course, be the exception to the rule .

[Bus Driver Man]

You have a point. Although I think it's not only an Airbus problem. Lots of non-Airbus pilots are also taught to fly without actually flying the plane. But this is more of a company policy problem.
Luckily I work for a company where there's no restriction on manual flight, and although we only fly with FBW aircraft (A320), we fly manually and raw data very often with lot's of visual approaches.

I can only compare with the B737 from my experience in the sim during my MCC, and in my opinion the only difference in flying both aircraft manually is the auto-trim on Airbus.
Just trying to say that you can be a button pusher in any other plane as well, not only Airbus.

[Dan Winterland]

The positive answer from the Tracon supervisor...' The missed approach procedure for the original instrument landing runway, not the sidestep visual runway assigned by the local controller'.

Never knew that. Thanks 411. I would have flown the procedure for the new runway.



As for re-programming the MCDU in the Airbus, I do. It's just a few quick button presses and it gives you the advantages of auto-tuning the ILS for glideslope guidance.

[Slasher]

Just trying to say that you can be a button pusher in any other plane as well, not only Airbus.

True, but the younger Airbus set tend to treat the box like an
Adobe program instead of a tool. Point is, why the extra puter
button activity, four seconds or not, when its not necessary?
Wasted use of cockpit resource.

But sometimes I just sit there and watch the kids pushing
buttons like crazy inserting a simple missed approach on
a sudden change of runway that has the MA proc missing
from the Co database, while trying to juggle calls and
checklists. After they've completed it, they tend to get
chuffed when I say "Why did you go and do that? If you
had've asked me first, I would've said if a missed approach
become necessary I'll do it raw data......and btw you punched
in the holding pattern wrong."

Then I flick over to ROSE VOR.....

BTW Dan W why do you need an ILS G/S on a visual
approach? PAPI's work fine, as does the Mk1 eyeball.

[pezetaroi]

Airbus has definitely taken the enchantment of “old school” flying from us, everything (almost) has to be done as they state in their manuals. I do agree it’s easier to complete it as a visual app, and pressing the G/S inhibit pb in order not to get an alarm going on. But it also takes 2 or 3 seconds to activate the SEC FLPN. The point is that since Airbus has nothing to say about how to complete a sidestep app, no other company (as I see) has ventured to apply a specific procedure.

Since almost every single maneuver in the A320 has to be done as they say, I wonder why haven’t they thought about this.

I personally activate the SEC FLPN and don’t have any problem if the PF doesn’t, just wanted to know different points of view… so thanks to everyone!

Ps: 411A, thanks for that call

[pezetaroi]

Bus Driver: Sorry, I meant FCOM3 3.03.20 p1, below visual circuit:

"The flight plan selected on the MCDU should include the selection of the landing runway"

[PantLoad]

411A is correct, but.....

Ha Ha Ha Ha .... Let me muddy the waters!!!!!

OK, if there is a published side-step maneuver (published on the IAP), then you would fly the MAP for that initial approach. 411A is correct.

The same logic would apply to a circling approach. So, for example, you're flying an ILS (LOC) to RWY 09, circle to RWY 27. There may be a published IAP for 27, but for whatever reason, you're doing RWY 9, circle to RWY 27. If you miss, you would fly the MAP for the IAP to RWY 9, not a RWY 27 IAP MAP.

To muddy the waters, IF there is no published side-step to a parallel runway on your IAP, you are, essentially, doing a visual approach. In that case, there is no published MAP. [Please see AIM 5-4-22.] "A Visual Approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go around is necessary for any reson, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued and appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower."

Ha Ha Ha Ha.....

Ain't this a great profession!!!!!


With regard to taxi speed....YES, there is a 30 kt max (Airbus) unless your company's SOP dictates otherwise. Doesn't matter if you are backtracking or what.....

With regard to callouts on visual approaches, what is your company's SOP? Does your company have a prescribed set of callouts for visual approaches? If not, so what!!!!!

With regard to pushing buttons at low altitudes, PLEASE don't do this! Concentrate on flying the airplane. The Airbus will land very nicely on the parallel runway without any pilot-FMGC intervention.

An exception would be when flying the Airbus-standard circling approach maneuver. Once you leave the final approach course, (as the FCTM says: when proceding to the downwind leg), activate secondary. The PNF (or "PM", depending on your company's vernacular) will activate the secondary flight plan, ensuring that the landing runway is not the "TO" waypoint.

Otherwise, the PF concentrates on accurately flying the aircraft; the other guy monitors....calls out deviations, etc.


Fly safe,

PantLoad

[Dan Winterland]

"The flight plan selected on the MCDU should include the selection of the landing runway"

That's because without a runway, the GS mini function will not be active. However, if you do land on a parrallel runway, you could assume that GS mini will still work.




Max 35 kts taxying in my company.