Is sidestick the way of the future
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Hi,
I agree with Denti.
We have no idea what control input the other pilot making when close to the ground. We can only observe the result. It's not recommended to add to the input due no feed back from the other pilot's side stick position and if it becomes necessary to take over during the flare, we start from a stick neutral position.
I also miss the tactile feed back of moving Thrust Levers when auto thrust is engaged.
Airbus has the first generation FBY side stick and Thrust Lever controls - Boeing with their 777 and 787 have the second generation.
@ Slasher. We haven't been directly connected to the flight control surfaces since they became powered by hydraulics. If hanging onto a control column gives you a feeling of security & you only have 3,600 hours PIC A320 - then please tell me who you fly for so I can avoid them also.
I agree with Denti.
We have no idea what control input the other pilot making when close to the ground. We can only observe the result. It's not recommended to add to the input due no feed back from the other pilot's side stick position and if it becomes necessary to take over during the flare, we start from a stick neutral position.
I also miss the tactile feed back of moving Thrust Levers when auto thrust is engaged.
Airbus has the first generation FBY side stick and Thrust Lever controls - Boeing with their 777 and 787 have the second generation.
@ Slasher. We haven't been directly connected to the flight control surfaces since they became powered by hydraulics. If hanging onto a control column gives you a feeling of security & you only have 3,600 hours PIC A320 - then please tell me who you fly for so I can avoid them also.
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Flown Boeings all my life and have 12000 hrs tt also have been a TRE for the past 4 yrs. not very old at 39 .
i have 250 odd hrs on the Bus now and love the side stick , simply because i think it makes the cockpit more comfortable for long haul flights. I think while handling strong gusting crosswinds , i would have preferred the Control column, probably because i am new to the Bus .
But yes i think that is the way forward.
i have 250 odd hrs on the Bus now and love the side stick , simply because i think it makes the cockpit more comfortable for long haul flights. I think while handling strong gusting crosswinds , i would have preferred the Control column, probably because i am new to the Bus .
But yes i think that is the way forward.
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I've flown with a few Slasher types - they all invented flying, can do it better than you, don't need an FO and think Chuck Yeager was overrated. Comments like that usually reveal the world's biggest closet case too...
Anyway - back to aviation. The sidestick was originally trialled on Concorde 201, rather than the Airbus aircraft - the technology then being developed further for use in the A320 series. Interesting Fact...
I'm a Boeing pilot and recently flew an Airbus for the first time - I have to say, I'm converted (not officially). The sidestick is brilliant. The 737 now feels agricultural...
Anyway - back to aviation. The sidestick was originally trialled on Concorde 201, rather than the Airbus aircraft - the technology then being developed further for use in the A320 series. Interesting Fact...
I'm a Boeing pilot and recently flew an Airbus for the first time - I have to say, I'm converted (not officially). The sidestick is brilliant. The 737 now feels agricultural...
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"Feels agricultural?" I gues you havnt kept up with developments in farming, Combines/Tractors/Swathers/Even my snow blower, GPS auto navigated, side stick remote controlls, Nav displays, use a UAV to survey crops, all of which cost far more than my aircraft! But if talking down to those of us who feed you makes you feel good, so be it.
although I think a 'q' term' would also be beneficial
edit:
Uhoh- here we go
-you're not a pilot
-you're talking tosh
-I have 100000 hrs
-My willy is the grandest site
and so on and so forth
-you're not a pilot
-you're talking tosh
-I have 100000 hrs
-My willy is the grandest site
and so on and so forth
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 11th Aug 2010 at 15:08.
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D O,Yes, it is a pilots forum, to avoid dying of "straight and level syndrome" I took eighteen seasons of from flying the heavy iron to go Fire Bombing/Spraying/Dusting/Seeding/Top Dressing, some of the systems used these days to place the stuff in the right spot make the Bus look crude. lots of fun, you should try it sometime. Other than the military its the only legal low flying there is these days! By the way, we live on a farm, keep our two little airplanes just by the back door, wouldnt live any other place if you paid me.{By the way, if you do go to a farmers forum, you will see we whine just like most pilots!}
Last edited by clunckdriver; 11th Aug 2010 at 22:07. Reason: Whineing.
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Hi Everyone
First of all thanks to veryone who contributed in this thread. Sidestick controllers have now been around for 22 yrs. So this thread gave very good pictures on how the pilots perceive the sidestick.
It is now very clear the vast majority of pilots like the sidestick. I managed catch up with few Boeing 747 drivers who are now in the A380 they too loved it.
Is sidestick the way of the future. Well Besides Airbus Bombardair C seies, Sukhoi regional jet and now the Irkut MC 21 will have sidestick.
In the Business avaition Flacon 7x got sidestick. I am sure bombardair too will give sidestick to its future jets.
In the General avaition sector Cirrus the market leader is fitted with sidesticks. All the new GA aircraft built either have centre stick or sidestick.
I think sidestick is definitely the way way of the future with the exception Boeing.
First of all thanks to veryone who contributed in this thread. Sidestick controllers have now been around for 22 yrs. So this thread gave very good pictures on how the pilots perceive the sidestick.
It is now very clear the vast majority of pilots like the sidestick. I managed catch up with few Boeing 747 drivers who are now in the A380 they too loved it.
Is sidestick the way of the future. Well Besides Airbus Bombardair C seies, Sukhoi regional jet and now the Irkut MC 21 will have sidestick.
In the Business avaition Flacon 7x got sidestick. I am sure bombardair too will give sidestick to its future jets.
In the General avaition sector Cirrus the market leader is fitted with sidesticks. All the new GA aircraft built either have centre stick or sidestick.
I think sidestick is definitely the way way of the future with the exception Boeing.
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I much prefer a sidestick, I find it far more intuitive and ergonomic compared to having a big heavy steering wheel in my face, which I only use to take-off, land and fly the odd approach.
I do miss some tactile feedback, especially knowing what the other pilot is doing. Force-feedback sidesticks would be aviation perfection to me.
I wonder where this steering wheel thing in commercial aviation came from in the first place. Early aircraft had centresticks (?), fighters always have and always will have some form of stick... Where did we get lost in the commercial world?
S.
I do miss some tactile feedback, especially knowing what the other pilot is doing. Force-feedback sidesticks would be aviation perfection to me.
I wonder where this steering wheel thing in commercial aviation came from in the first place. Early aircraft had centresticks (?), fighters always have and always will have some form of stick... Where did we get lost in the commercial world?
S.
I do miss some tactile feedback, especially knowing what the other pilot is doing. Force-feedback sidesticks would be aviation perfection to me.
although I think a 'q' term' would also be beneficial
Told you so since my second posts on pprune
I feel so justified now
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Actually, many of the very early airplanes had steering wheels, simply because those were in use in other means of transportation as well. And wheel like yokes were in use throughout the history of aviation, especially in bombers and transport aircraft. So nothing really special about having them.
Personally i do not really care if we use a yoke or a sidestick although the sidestick has certain space advantages especially in transport aircraft where manual flying is done less than 5% of the time anyway (yes, even with flying manually up to cruising and back down from there). What i do care about is how the flight control mechanic behind the stick or yoke is designed, and i have to say i do like the boeing way there much more than the airbus one. If you could combine both the boeing flight control mechanic with a sidestick it would be great.
Personally i do not really care if we use a yoke or a sidestick although the sidestick has certain space advantages especially in transport aircraft where manual flying is done less than 5% of the time anyway (yes, even with flying manually up to cruising and back down from there). What i do care about is how the flight control mechanic behind the stick or yoke is designed, and i have to say i do like the boeing way there much more than the airbus one. If you could combine both the boeing flight control mechanic with a sidestick it would be great.
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I do miss some tactile feedback, especially knowing what the other pilot is doing. Force-feedback sidesticks would be aviation perfection to me.
Many pilots prefer the current AB “dead” side stick as it allows for a much more user friendly cockpit as much of the flying does not require direct control input. The other salient point is that many prefer the tactile and visual feedback of a interconnected yoke when flying (manual or automated)
Perhaps the question should be?
Which do pilots prefer a tactile and interconnected controls with back driven throttles to represent thrust setting etc or are they happy with receiving all the flight information from the PFD ND EICAS/ECAM and seat of their pants?
My 2 cents
nb "dead stick" Is a loose term i used as the AB is spring loaded to give feel but the feel does not change with A/C speed or config etc.
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Sideticks was the original aircraft controller. The worlds first aeroplane the wright flyer had a sidestick. All the early generation aircraft had sidestick. Later the yoke made their appearance.. The early yoke was perfectly round just like a car wheel.
Later the yokes were shaped like half wheel. the clocked turned again when Airbus installed sidesticks 22 yrs ago on their A320 and the rest is history.
Boeing 787 design team intially made a backdriven sidestick for the 787. How ever the senior management wanted to retain the yoke because they wanted cockpit commonality with the 777.
Had Boeing installed backdriven sidestick for thier 787 they could have made new history.
Later the yokes were shaped like half wheel. the clocked turned again when Airbus installed sidesticks 22 yrs ago on their A320 and the rest is history.
Boeing 787 design team intially made a backdriven sidestick for the 787. How ever the senior management wanted to retain the yoke because they wanted cockpit commonality with the 777.
Had Boeing installed backdriven sidestick for thier 787 they could have made new history.
the lunatic fringe
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A-3TWENTY:
An utterly stupid and ignorant post.
Plenty of reasons not to like a sidestick, and most have to do with having been a trainer on the Airbus. The column has many advantages not least is I can see what the FO is trying to do, against how the aircraft is behaving. i.e. I can see the demand and the result. With an Airbus sidestick I cannot easily monitor that. Same with an engaged autopilot. With a column I can see what the AP is demanding, and can also see the result. With a sidestick that does not move you are yet another layer removed from the aircraft, and once again, pushed further out the loop.
Yes it is more comfortable, yes it is nice for many reasons, but it is not a perfect solution.
So I like a column, and I do not have an old fashioned mind, and I most certainly do not resist change because it is change, and if left to myself I most certainly would not be in an open cockpit.
Your post tells me more about you than it does about any informed discussion about the merits or not of a sidestick.
Those who like columns are those old fashioned minds which resist to all kinds of changes. Those which , left by themselves would be still flying open cockpits.
Plenty of reasons not to like a sidestick, and most have to do with having been a trainer on the Airbus. The column has many advantages not least is I can see what the FO is trying to do, against how the aircraft is behaving. i.e. I can see the demand and the result. With an Airbus sidestick I cannot easily monitor that. Same with an engaged autopilot. With a column I can see what the AP is demanding, and can also see the result. With a sidestick that does not move you are yet another layer removed from the aircraft, and once again, pushed further out the loop.
Yes it is more comfortable, yes it is nice for many reasons, but it is not a perfect solution.
So I like a column, and I do not have an old fashioned mind, and I most certainly do not resist change because it is change, and if left to myself I most certainly would not be in an open cockpit.
Your post tells me more about you than it does about any informed discussion about the merits or not of a sidestick.
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Ditto L337.
The kids these days like sidesticks and computers rather
than flying an airplane for its own sake - I work with them
often enough. The replys concerning my last post says it all
and I just ignore em.
Recall the QF A330 enroute incident SIN-PER.... as you say
an example no feedback through the stick amongst other
issues.
The kids these days like sidesticks and computers rather
than flying an airplane for its own sake - I work with them
often enough. The replys concerning my last post says it all
and I just ignore em.
Recall the QF A330 enroute incident SIN-PER.... as you say
an example no feedback through the stick amongst other
issues.
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On a humorus side there was a nightstop earlyer this year
where we landed just before an impending typhoon of 60
odd knots was going to hit. The brand new kid (but with
500 hrs twin Comanche) was concerned with the banging
around of the flight controls as the passage of the typh
was to be initialy rear quartering to our parking direction.
I mentioned just to leave the park brake on to prevent
any weathercocking tendancy and the engineers will take
care of the rest.
After getting my overnight bag from down the back I
returned to the cockpit to find the proud FO had VERY
skilfuly wrapt his seat belt around his sidestick with left
aileron up/elevator down and also sugested switching on
the Blue override to add aditional security.
Christ I had to laugh at that one!
where we landed just before an impending typhoon of 60
odd knots was going to hit. The brand new kid (but with
500 hrs twin Comanche) was concerned with the banging
around of the flight controls as the passage of the typh
was to be initialy rear quartering to our parking direction.
I mentioned just to leave the park brake on to prevent
any weathercocking tendancy and the engineers will take
care of the rest.
After getting my overnight bag from down the back I
returned to the cockpit to find the proud FO had VERY
skilfuly wrapt his seat belt around his sidestick with left
aileron up/elevator down and also sugested switching on
the Blue override to add aditional security.
Christ I had to laugh at that one!
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For me the it was easy to change to sidestick.
The last point was the CAT II manual landing when I would prefer controlwheel. Now after 2000 hrs on the Bus I don't feel that.
Lotetu
The last point was the CAT II manual landing when I would prefer controlwheel. Now after 2000 hrs on the Bus I don't feel that.
Lotetu
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Sidesticks and Startle Effect
Here is a personal experience in a race-car situation, which I think is informative: I was in the UK, was totally accustomed to right-hand drive. I had an opportunity to use the Rover / Solihull race test track, and grabbed it. Going into a low-speed hairpin turn (part of their mountain track test) from a high speed, something happened I didn't expect: with no time to think, I downshifted TO THE RIGHT, which was wrong. I finally figured it out: my subconscious was oriented in BODY-CENTRIC MODE, not in left-right mode.
Why do I mention this? I believe that center sticks/yokes are a more "natural" control (OK, I know this is subjective). Yes, side-sticks can be used well and easily, but what happens in an emergency? Are the instant control inputs OK vs. control column? Please let me know.
And this leads to a non-airline issue: the Cirrus has a side-YOKE, not a side-STICK. For this a/c, I think my example above truly applies: low and slow, in a stall going into a spin with no time to react, I believe that the natural reactions will over-control and end the flight very soon.
Please let me know your comments.
RichTam
Why do I mention this? I believe that center sticks/yokes are a more "natural" control (OK, I know this is subjective). Yes, side-sticks can be used well and easily, but what happens in an emergency? Are the instant control inputs OK vs. control column? Please let me know.
And this leads to a non-airline issue: the Cirrus has a side-YOKE, not a side-STICK. For this a/c, I think my example above truly applies: low and slow, in a stall going into a spin with no time to react, I believe that the natural reactions will over-control and end the flight very soon.
Please let me know your comments.
RichTam
Is sidestick the way of the future
After saying something this sensible ...
... why would one say something this silly?
PS:
The Comanche (RAH-66) helicopter had a side stick rather than the traditional cyclic, and it used a twist of the side stick rather than rudder pedals to control yaw.
The pilots who flew it didn't seem to have any problem with that rig.
I`ve flown both and I love the sidestick.
Fighters are flown in dog fights, close to the ground and other extreme conditions with sidesticks. Why airliners couldn`t?
Furthermore in a flight of 12 hours you will use it for 5 minutes max.Sometimes a lot less. Why I need a column stuck there in front of me?
More.If you have an useless column , you can`t have a very usable table.
It`s just advantages.
Fighters are flown in dog fights, close to the ground and other extreme conditions with sidesticks. Why airliners couldn`t?
Furthermore in a flight of 12 hours you will use it for 5 minutes max.Sometimes a lot less. Why I need a column stuck there in front of me?
More.If you have an useless column , you can`t have a very usable table.
It`s just advantages.
Those who like columns are those old fashioned minds which resist to all kinds of changes. Those which , left by themselves would be still flying open cockpits. A-3TWENTY
The Comanche (RAH-66) helicopter had a side stick rather than the traditional cyclic, and it used a twist of the side stick rather than rudder pedals to control yaw.
The pilots who flew it didn't seem to have any problem with that rig.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 24th Oct 2013 at 14:00.