A320 Slats > 3 reference ???
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A320 Slats > 3 reference ???
If one looks to the "Slats/ Flaps Jammed checklist" in the A320 QRH there is a matrix. This matrix is used to establish what configuration of Flap/ Slat you have and the applicable max speed for your config.
Example: In the simulator today I had Flaps at 3 and Slats at 0 configuration ( Slats jammed/ WTB on ). Max speed 177 knots.
Within that matrix there is reference to Slats > 3.
So here is my question/ confusion....The slats only go to 3. There is only 3 positions. Those been 18, 22 and 27 degrees. There is no greater than 3.
Any enlightenment please. Thanks so much.
Example: In the simulator today I had Flaps at 3 and Slats at 0 configuration ( Slats jammed/ WTB on ). Max speed 177 knots.
Within that matrix there is reference to Slats > 3.
So here is my question/ confusion....The slats only go to 3. There is only 3 positions. Those been 18, 22 and 27 degrees. There is no greater than 3.
Any enlightenment please. Thanks so much.
The number relates to the slat position that you get according to flap lever position. Which is not very intuitive I am afraid.
I am pretty sure the old QRH had only four boxes down the side whch you could directly equate to each dot.
The way I look at it is :
S=0 slat position at 0 dot.
0<S<1 slat posn greater than 0 dot but less than 1st dot
S=1 slat posn at 1st dot.
1<S<=3 slat posn greater than 1st dot but less than or equal 2nd dot. This is because slat positin does not change from flap 2 to flap 3.
S>3 slat posn greater than 2nd dot.
I am pretty sure the old QRH had only four boxes down the side whch you could directly equate to each dot.
The way I look at it is :
S=0 slat position at 0 dot.
0<S<1 slat posn greater than 0 dot but less than 1st dot
S=1 slat posn at 1st dot.
1<S<=3 slat posn greater than 1st dot but less than or equal 2nd dot. This is because slat positin does not change from flap 2 to flap 3.
S>3 slat posn greater than 2nd dot.
Carpe,
The way to look at this is to consider the Slat position RELATIVE to the flap lever selected position. As another poster pointed out, SLAT2 (as I call it) is the position for both FLAP2 and FLAP3. With the selection of FLAP FULL then you also get SLAT3 ( follow so far?) Thus as far as the table is concerned it may be possible to achieve an aircraft configuration which has Max Slat position + 0 Flap position - hence the relevant speed limit. Very Gallic and not very intuitive!! Hope you enjoy the course.
The way to look at this is to consider the Slat position RELATIVE to the flap lever selected position. As another poster pointed out, SLAT2 (as I call it) is the position for both FLAP2 and FLAP3. With the selection of FLAP FULL then you also get SLAT3 ( follow so far?) Thus as far as the table is concerned it may be possible to achieve an aircraft configuration which has Max Slat position + 0 Flap position - hence the relevant speed limit. Very Gallic and not very intuitive!! Hope you enjoy the course.
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Hi Carpe
This is a very interesting subject. Just one question: as I interpret FCOM 3.02.27 pages 2 and 3, the ECAM will display a MAX SPEED..... XXX line with the corresponding limitation. I mean, I think the table is there just for info, when you are at home studiying
. If the slats lock occurs in flight we just have to follow the ECAM "action". Am I right? or in your sim you had to find out the limit in the table?*
As for how the table is the way it is:
Each slat angle has its own limit.
For slats 1 (18º) the limit is 230 kt.
For slats 2 and 3 (22º) the limit is 200 kt
For slats Full (27º) the limit is 177 kt
Any slat angle below or equal to 18º (position 1) has the same limit (230 kt) even for just 1º.
Any slat angle above 18º and below or equal to 22º (positions 2 and 3) has the same limit (200 kt).
Any slat angle above 22º, till 27º, has the same limit (177 kt).
The slats will lock only if they should move after a flap lever selection.
Therefore you will never have a slats lock after selecting flaps 3 in final approach (nor selecting flaps 2 from flaps 3 after a Go Around).
During approach, you can have it after selecting flaps 1, 2 or full, only.
If the slats move and then lock after selecting a flap position during approach you have the slat limitation for the intended position (230 kt if you selected 1, 200 kt if you selected 2, 177 kt if you selected full).
When slats lock after take off, you have the slat limitation of the previous flap lever position. During initial climb out with Conf 3 you select flaps 1 at acceleration altitude. The slats can lock at any position between 22º and 18º. The limiting one is 22º. Same when taking off with Conf 2. If you take off with conf 1, slat limit would be 230 kt.
So I guess the conclusion is that the limit is the most limiting of the two lever positions involved, previous when cleaning, intended during approach.
The same applies for the flaps positions, only the limits are different so you need to know with is the limit applying in each case, slats or flaps limit. Hence the table.
* Now I see that the table is needed for knowing what is the VFE next, so the procedure can be carried out. The ECAM does not display it, unfortunately.
This is a very interesting subject. Just one question: as I interpret FCOM 3.02.27 pages 2 and 3, the ECAM will display a MAX SPEED..... XXX line with the corresponding limitation. I mean, I think the table is there just for info, when you are at home studiying
. If the slats lock occurs in flight we just have to follow the ECAM "action". Am I right? or in your sim you had to find out the limit in the table?*As for how the table is the way it is:
Each slat angle has its own limit.
For slats 1 (18º) the limit is 230 kt.
For slats 2 and 3 (22º) the limit is 200 kt
For slats Full (27º) the limit is 177 kt
Any slat angle below or equal to 18º (position 1) has the same limit (230 kt) even for just 1º.
Any slat angle above 18º and below or equal to 22º (positions 2 and 3) has the same limit (200 kt).
Any slat angle above 22º, till 27º, has the same limit (177 kt).
The slats will lock only if they should move after a flap lever selection.
Therefore you will never have a slats lock after selecting flaps 3 in final approach (nor selecting flaps 2 from flaps 3 after a Go Around).
During approach, you can have it after selecting flaps 1, 2 or full, only.
If the slats move and then lock after selecting a flap position during approach you have the slat limitation for the intended position (230 kt if you selected 1, 200 kt if you selected 2, 177 kt if you selected full).
When slats lock after take off, you have the slat limitation of the previous flap lever position. During initial climb out with Conf 3 you select flaps 1 at acceleration altitude. The slats can lock at any position between 22º and 18º. The limiting one is 22º. Same when taking off with Conf 2. If you take off with conf 1, slat limit would be 230 kt.
So I guess the conclusion is that the limit is the most limiting of the two lever positions involved, previous when cleaning, intended during approach.
The same applies for the flaps positions, only the limits are different so you need to know with is the limit applying in each case, slats or flaps limit. Hence the table.
* Now I see that the table is needed for knowing what is the VFE next, so the procedure can be carried out. The ECAM does not display it, unfortunately.
Last edited by Microburst2002; 12th Nov 2009 at 13:24. Reason: VFE NEXT
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Good stuff, MB2002 except for
VFE next is always displayed on the PFD IAS scale! The table is there so you can plan the max speed on a go-around based on the landing config, and the retraction speed if diverting after the G/A. So you enter the table with your planned landing config.
The Slat column refers to lever position and the equivalent slat position.
S >3 is there to allow for a Slats lock on a go-around in CONF FULL - remember that these procedures are written for every possible flight phase/ config, not just the one you find yourself in!
* Now I see that the table is needed for knowing what is the VFE next, so the procedure can be carried out. The ECAM does not display it, unfortunately.
The Slat column refers to lever position and the equivalent slat position.
S >3 is there to allow for a Slats lock on a go-around in CONF FULL - remember that these procedures are written for every possible flight phase/ config, not just the one you find yourself in!
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Yes
I have been calculating all possibilities when having slats or flaps locked during approach and VFE next is the same as the one displayed in the PFD except in the case of a flaps lock when selecting 2, because from 2 to 3 neither flaps nor slats will move so the VFE next is the same as VFE (200 kt).
Unless wrong
I have been calculating all possibilities when having slats or flaps locked during approach and VFE next is the same as the one displayed in the PFD except in the case of a flaps lock when selecting 2, because from 2 to 3 neither flaps nor slats will move so the VFE next is the same as VFE (200 kt).
Unless wrong
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I think you are making it a bit complex..
As the QRH says "VFE and VFE next are displayed on the PFD according to the flap lever position" and that is what you use as your reference when configuring the a/c. ("If not displayed, use the placard speeds")
The table is used to extract the maximum speed to be used in a G/A, and I would always recommend inserting that max speed as a constraint at a suitable waypoint in the G/A section of F-PLAN as a reminder (because you are in SEL speed).
Your example is technically correct but practically complex - the really important bit is getting the Landing Distance Procedure correct, and you might have to run the QRH in quick time if it's not your day.. I prefer to keep it simple.
As the QRH says "VFE and VFE next are displayed on the PFD according to the flap lever position" and that is what you use as your reference when configuring the a/c. ("If not displayed, use the placard speeds")
The table is used to extract the maximum speed to be used in a G/A, and I would always recommend inserting that max speed as a constraint at a suitable waypoint in the G/A section of F-PLAN as a reminder (because you are in SEL speed).
Your example is technically correct but practically complex - the really important bit is getting the Landing Distance Procedure correct, and you might have to run the QRH in quick time if it's not your day.. I prefer to keep it simple.
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Thanks RWU
TP - Why do you think MB2002 is making it practically complex? He has correctly anticipated a problem with the presentation of VFE on the GA, and the barbers pole will be a reminder.
TP - Why do you think MB2002 is making it practically complex? He has correctly anticipated a problem with the presentation of VFE on the GA, and the barbers pole will be a reminder.
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TP - Why do you think MB2002 is making it practically complex? He has correctly anticipated a problem with the presentation of VFE on the GA, and the barbers pole will be a reminder.
Airbus write very precise FCOM and QRH, so precise that most pilots think they are probably too concise. But this procedure contains all the information you need, and if you follow it with the same precision with which it was written it will get you down safely.
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Hi to all,
I have been trying to understand why this discussion is being made guys, but obviously I was unable. #1 post is measleading (wrong speed), so are most of the next posts.
Table nothing to do with VFEnext. VFEnext is on PFD (iaw lever) and plackards.
Table has to do with actual abnormal configuration seen on the EWD (still blue if in disagreement with lever or at transit). So good to know your max speed (in advance before configuring for example dual hyd failures) even if ECAM will tell you. Also essential for go around planning (circuit or diversion) since you can from your EWD anticipate your actual configuration after a go around.
Tend to agree with TP.
Regards.
I have been trying to understand why this discussion is being made guys, but obviously I was unable. #1 post is measleading (wrong speed), so are most of the next posts.
Table nothing to do with VFEnext. VFEnext is on PFD (iaw lever) and plackards.
Table has to do with actual abnormal configuration seen on the EWD (still blue if in disagreement with lever or at transit). So good to know your max speed (in advance before configuring for example dual hyd failures) even if ECAM will tell you. Also essential for go around planning (circuit or diversion) since you can from your EWD anticipate your actual configuration after a go around.
Tend to agree with TP.
Regards.
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The original question was about the table.
Yes, maybe I am making it too complex. As I said this is a very interesting subject and I am glad we have this thread so I will learn about it.
Let me recap and correct me if I am wrong, please.
The QRH italics say that displayed VFE and VFE Next are those corresponding to the flap lever position, therefore not to the actual flaps/slats. During approach this is quite good beause both VFE and VFE Next in the PFD will coincide in most cases with actual ones (except VFE next in the case I mentioned above, if you agree). (And also except VFE in the same case, the flap jam occurring before slats 18º, in which case VFE would be 215 kt instead of the displayed 200 kt).
After carrying out the procedure by setting VFE next -5 kt and then moving the flaps lever one step untill reaching lever at CONF 3 the displayed VFE will be the actual VFE (except in those cases, where VFE will be 200 kt instead of the displayed 185 kt).
In case of a Go Around to remain in the circuit (or to divert when flaps jammed > 0) according to the paper procedure we will maintain configuration ("Go around" instead of "Go around, flaps") and select VFE-10 kt. The displayed VFE applies except in the mentioned case.
Should we clean for a diversion we will do it between VFE - 10kt and VFE. From Lever at CONF 3 to CONF 1 the displayed VFE applies (except in those cases). Then, from CONF 1 to 0 we have to calculate what the VFE will be, since the displayed one will not necessarily be the actual one. There are 2 cases for cleaning:
- flaps jammed at zero: VFE will be 230 kt instead of the displayed 215 kt. So when passing 220 kt select flaps 0.
- slats jammed: VFE will be 177, 200 or 215 depending on where the slats jammed. So when passing 167, 190 or 205 kt respectively select flaps 0.
Argh!
The more I look at it, the less simple the slats/flaps jammed seems to me.
Yes, maybe I am making it too complex. As I said this is a very interesting subject and I am glad we have this thread so I will learn about it.
Let me recap and correct me if I am wrong, please.
The QRH italics say that displayed VFE and VFE Next are those corresponding to the flap lever position, therefore not to the actual flaps/slats. During approach this is quite good beause both VFE and VFE Next in the PFD will coincide in most cases with actual ones (except VFE next in the case I mentioned above, if you agree). (And also except VFE in the same case, the flap jam occurring before slats 18º, in which case VFE would be 215 kt instead of the displayed 200 kt).
After carrying out the procedure by setting VFE next -5 kt and then moving the flaps lever one step untill reaching lever at CONF 3 the displayed VFE will be the actual VFE (except in those cases, where VFE will be 200 kt instead of the displayed 185 kt).
In case of a Go Around to remain in the circuit (or to divert when flaps jammed > 0) according to the paper procedure we will maintain configuration ("Go around" instead of "Go around, flaps") and select VFE-10 kt. The displayed VFE applies except in the mentioned case.
Should we clean for a diversion we will do it between VFE - 10kt and VFE. From Lever at CONF 3 to CONF 1 the displayed VFE applies (except in those cases). Then, from CONF 1 to 0 we have to calculate what the VFE will be, since the displayed one will not necessarily be the actual one. There are 2 cases for cleaning:
- flaps jammed at zero: VFE will be 230 kt instead of the displayed 215 kt. So when passing 220 kt select flaps 0.
- slats jammed: VFE will be 177, 200 or 215 depending on where the slats jammed. So when passing 167, 190 or 205 kt respectively select flaps 0.
Argh!
The more I look at it, the less simple the slats/flaps jammed seems to me.
Last edited by Microburst2002; 15th Nov 2009 at 09:32. Reason: to ammend a badly written thing, as pointed out by Aristoclis
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Microburst, I am sorry but what exactly do mean by
If I understand this, I might be able to read the rest of your post.
Edit: When reaching lever at final position Conf 3 the displayed VFE is as you stated 185kt. The actual max speed for your actual configuration could be according to failure: NO LIMITATION, 230kt, 215kt, 200kt, 177kt. So I really find it difficult to understand when you say "the displayed VFE is the actual (185kt) except when it is 200kt.
both VFE and VFE Next will coincide in most cases
Edit: When reaching lever at final position Conf 3 the displayed VFE is as you stated 185kt. The actual max speed for your actual configuration could be according to failure: NO LIMITATION, 230kt, 215kt, 200kt, 177kt. So I really find it difficult to understand when you say "the displayed VFE is the actual (185kt) except when it is 200kt.
Last edited by aristoclis; 15th Nov 2009 at 08:19.
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Hi
I have already ammended my post, because what I wrote was not wat I meant.
Regarding the actual max speed. Yes, it could be any. But if you have either flaps or slats jam, then it happens that actual VFEs and VFE nexts coincide with displayed ones (except in the case I mentioned in another post: flap jam after selecting flaps 2 in approach). I came to this conclusion studiying the table for a while, so I could be wrong, of course.
If there is a jam in both slats and flaps, it's a different story.
I have already ammended my post, because what I wrote was not wat I meant.
Regarding the actual max speed. Yes, it could be any. But if you have either flaps or slats jam, then it happens that actual VFEs and VFE nexts coincide with displayed ones (except in the case I mentioned in another post: flap jam after selecting flaps 2 in approach). I came to this conclusion studiying the table for a while, so I could be wrong, of course.
If there is a jam in both slats and flaps, it's a different story.
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Hi Microburst,
The possible cases are many and in some of them what you say is true. But to keep things as simple as possible don' t bother if displayed VFE or VFE next happens to be the right one according to actual configuration. ECAM actions and paper checklist step by step will make things easy. Table is really straightforward.
P.S. I am sure you already have noticed the last note in the QRH just before the table. Max speed (from table) might be higher than VFE (displayed on PFD). In that case you may follow VFE.
The possible cases are many and in some of them what you say is true. But to keep things as simple as possible don' t bother if displayed VFE or VFE next happens to be the right one according to actual configuration. ECAM actions and paper checklist step by step will make things easy. Table is really straightforward.
P.S. I am sure you already have noticed the last note in the QRH just before the table. Max speed (from table) might be higher than VFE (displayed on PFD). In that case you may follow VFE.
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aristoclis
In my QRH that last note refers to VLS not VFE - VLS is displayed on PFD and always valid for the actual flap/slat conf. Do you have a different QRH?
I said you guys were making it complex... I cannot tell from your profiles if you are A320 rated. The QRH refers to the displayed VFE next for configuring. It is always safe, you won't break the aircraft, you do not need to work out an "actual" VFE next as defined by MB2002.
On a clean-up for diversion you already know the VMAX in the landing config, so you can accelerate, select Flap 1, check/work out your new VMAX, accelerate and select Flap 0 passing VMAX-10 .. all done in slow time using SEL SPD.
It is far more important to maintain SA than to bury your head in the table more than necessary.
P.S. I am sure you already have noticed the last note in the QRH just before the table. Max speed (from table) might be higher than VFE (displayed on PFD). In that case you may follow VFE.
I said you guys were making it complex... I cannot tell from your profiles if you are A320 rated. The QRH refers to the displayed VFE next for configuring. It is always safe, you won't break the aircraft, you do not need to work out an "actual" VFE next as defined by MB2002.
On a clean-up for diversion you already know the VMAX in the landing config, so you can accelerate, select Flap 1, check/work out your new VMAX, accelerate and select Flap 0 passing VMAX-10 .. all done in slow time using SEL SPD.
It is far more important to maintain SA than to bury your head in the table more than necessary.
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QRH REV 43 PAGE 2.04 (REV38 SEQ002) last note:
NOTE: . In case of go around with CONF FULL selected, the L/G NOT
DOWN warning is triggered at landing gear retraction.
.In some cases, MAX SPEED - 10KT may be a few knots higher
than VFE. In this situation, pilots may follow the VFE.
P.S. You can guess three times if I am typerated.
NOTE: . In case of go around with CONF FULL selected, the L/G NOT
DOWN warning is triggered at landing gear retraction.
.In some cases, MAX SPEED - 10KT may be a few knots higher
than VFE. In this situation, pilots may follow the VFE.
P.S. You can guess three times if I am typerated.