A320 RTO considerations
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Greece
A320 RTO considerations
Hi to all,
Rejected take off procedure FCOM 3.02.10 page 2, states that above 100kt and below V1, (amongst others) amber ECAM caution "ENG REVERSER FAULT" should lead to the decision to reject the take off.
Looking up at FCOM 1.70.95 page 17, I see that this specific ECAM caution is inhibited in phases 3,4,5 (1st engine TO power to 1500 feet).
Am I missing something here?
Rejected take off procedure FCOM 3.02.10 page 2, states that above 100kt and below V1, (amongst others) amber ECAM caution "ENG REVERSER FAULT" should lead to the decision to reject the take off.
Looking up at FCOM 1.70.95 page 17, I see that this specific ECAM caution is inhibited in phases 3,4,5 (1st engine TO power to 1500 feet).
Am I missing something here?
Joined: May 2003
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Surrey
Not looked at my FCOMs but off the top of my head if the FADEC detects any of the reverser doors unlocked/deployed etc and reverse is NOT selected then it will automatically select idle power for the engine. Now if this happens between 100kts and V1 well then you to all intents and purpose an engine failure before V1 and so should stop?
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Greece
Blinkz,
being as much precise as it gets, I am not talking about "ENG REVERSE UNLOCKED" which by the way is not inhibited in phase 4 (80kt to lift off) if engine thrust is automatically set to idle, and obviously is a reason to reject take off between 100kt and V1.
I am referring to "ENG REVERSER FAULT" (loss of thrust reverser on one engine due to systems components, sensors or FADEC fault). It would help if you (or anybody) had the time to look up the specific pages in the FCOM.
Thanks.
being as much precise as it gets, I am not talking about "ENG REVERSE UNLOCKED" which by the way is not inhibited in phase 4 (80kt to lift off) if engine thrust is automatically set to idle, and obviously is a reason to reject take off between 100kt and V1.
I am referring to "ENG REVERSER FAULT" (loss of thrust reverser on one engine due to systems components, sensors or FADEC fault). It would help if you (or anybody) had the time to look up the specific pages in the FCOM.
Thanks.
Joined: May 2007
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From: Europe
Good question.
I cannot find the reason either...
the only reason is that airbus has not updated the FCTM because what you are talking about is stated as a master caution, but looking in the Fcom 1 it says NIL for any caution...So this is also wrong...
Before I belive they also had ELEV R+L fault, but now they have removed it, at least here...
I am not sure though...
I cannot find the reason either...
the only reason is that airbus has not updated the FCTM because what you are talking about is stated as a master caution, but looking in the Fcom 1 it says NIL for any caution...So this is also wrong...
Before I belive they also had ELEV R+L fault, but now they have removed it, at least here...
I am not sure though...
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Greece
christianworld,
FCTM is also updated and in page AO-020. P 2/16 states the same things as the FCOM 3:
• Above 100 kt, and approaching V1, the Captain should be "go-minded" and only reject the takeoff in the event of a major failure, sudden loss of thrust, any indication that the aircraft will not fly safely, any red ECAM warning, or any amber ECAM caution listed below:
• F/CTL SIDESTICK FAULT
FCTM is also updated and in page AO-020. P 2/16 states the same things as the FCOM 3:
• Above 100 kt, and approaching V1, the Captain should be "go-minded" and only reject the takeoff in the event of a major failure, sudden loss of thrust, any indication that the aircraft will not fly safely, any red ECAM warning, or any amber ECAM caution listed below:
• F/CTL SIDESTICK FAULT
• ENG FAIL
• ENG REVERSER FAULT
• ENG REVERSE UNLOCK
L+R ELEV FAULT is a non inhibited red ECAM warning and it is crystal clear that take off should be rejected below V1 in this case.
Question is: How am I supposed to reject take off for the amber ECAM CAUTION ENG REVERSER FAULT which is inhibited in the take off phase anyway (iaw FCOM 1.70.95 page 17)?
Thank you for your time.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: india
hi
VOL 1....
ENGINE 1(2) REVERSER FAULT .....loss of thrust reverser on one engine due to system components, sensors or FADEC FAULT without any master warning light and aural sound and inhibited in phase 3..4..5ets....Correct
VOL 3.02.70 pg 1
Engine 1(2) REVERSER FAULT
if reverser position fault with reverser pressurised
ENG 1(2) at IDLE
THR LVR 1(2) IDLE
though i dont knw the answer
but by reading both it means that with ENG REV FAULT reverser may also be pressurised apart from sensor fault, fadec etc...thought that warning is inhibited in the respective phase but reverser being pressurised would not go unnoticed and thrust would automatically be commande to idle and in that case rejection is appropriate for the loss of thrust on one engine...
if sensor is t fault it wont detect rev pressurised...but rev fault for sure as sensor has failed..
but if the sensors are working and genuinely reversor is pressurised you will get thet warning in phase 3...REV PRESSURISED... for which u should not continue below 80 anyway...
VOL 1....
ENGINE 1(2) REVERSER FAULT .....loss of thrust reverser on one engine due to system components, sensors or FADEC FAULT without any master warning light and aural sound and inhibited in phase 3..4..5ets....Correct
VOL 3.02.70 pg 1
Engine 1(2) REVERSER FAULT
if reverser position fault with reverser pressurised
ENG 1(2) at IDLE
THR LVR 1(2) IDLE
though i dont knw the answer
but by reading both it means that with ENG REV FAULT reverser may also be pressurised apart from sensor fault, fadec etc...thought that warning is inhibited in the respective phase but reverser being pressurised would not go unnoticed and thrust would automatically be commande to idle and in that case rejection is appropriate for the loss of thrust on one engine...
if sensor is t fault it wont detect rev pressurised...but rev fault for sure as sensor has failed..
but if the sensors are working and genuinely reversor is pressurised you will get thet warning in phase 3...REV PRESSURISED... for which u should not continue below 80 anyway...
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Dublin
Seems, >>> fairly straight forward; If the REV FAULT is triggered due to FADEC or sensor only faults, the warning is Inhibited.. no Master Caution, Go scenario.
If the REV FAULT is triggered due to the reverser position, or potential unlock/ deployment, the caution is not inhibited.. Stop
Either way, if it does deploy, the system deals with it, as described earlier, reducing effected engine thrust to idle.
The Airbus manuals must rate amongst the worst produced, no wonder there is a wealth of interpretations and home grown FCTMs about!
If the REV FAULT is triggered due to the reverser position, or potential unlock/ deployment, the caution is not inhibited.. Stop
Either way, if it does deploy, the system deals with it, as described earlier, reducing effected engine thrust to idle.
The Airbus manuals must rate amongst the worst produced, no wonder there is a wealth of interpretations and home grown FCTMs about!
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Greece
Kirks gusset,
As I mentioned previously, if you have an unlock you 'll get a ENG REVERSE UNLOCK (thrust goes automatic to idle), which is not inhibited and is one of the conditions that should lead to RTO.
ENG REVERSER FAULT is inhibited during phases 3,4,5. It is nowhere stated that it might be not inhibited depending on the conditions that caused the message. For me it is not straightforward. My question still applies.
Rgds.
As I mentioned previously, if you have an unlock you 'll get a ENG REVERSE UNLOCK (thrust goes automatic to idle), which is not inhibited and is one of the conditions that should lead to RTO.
ENG REVERSER FAULT is inhibited during phases 3,4,5. It is nowhere stated that it might be not inhibited depending on the conditions that caused the message. For me it is not straightforward. My question still applies.
Rgds.
Joined: Sep 2009
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From: Hanoi
hi all
Just got FAQ email from my company can answer this question:
Q9. Regarding the criteria for rejecting a takeoff between 100 KIAS and V1.
According to FCOM 3, between 100 KIAS and V1, you reject for:
1. Any Master Warning,
2. Any fire,
3. Any severe damage,
4. Sudden loss of engine thrust,
5. Perception the aircraft is unsafe to fly,
6. And four Master Cautions:
A. Sidestick Failure
B. Engine Failure
C. Thurst Reverser Fault
D. Thrust Reverser Unlocked
Aren't the thrust reverser items listed above inhibited from application of takeoff thrust
to 1500Ft AGL?If so, how are you to get a Master Caution?
Answer:
After review of your query we would like to provide you with the following information.
First, as you mentioned, the ENG REV FAULT caution is inhibited in flight during the takeoff
phase.
However, with reference to the latest issue of the FCOM 3.02.10, dated Jun 09, the rejected
takeoff procedure has been simplified in order to ease the rejected takeoff decision making.
The list of situations that can lead to the decision to reject takeoff above 100knots has been
changed to:
1. Fire warning, or severe damage ;
2. Sudden loss of engine thrust ;
3. Malfunctions or conditions that give unambiguous indications that the aircraft will not fly
safely.
4. Any red ECAM warning.
5. Any amber ECAM caution of the ENG system or the F/CTL system.
Q9. Regarding the criteria for rejecting a takeoff between 100 KIAS and V1.
According to FCOM 3, between 100 KIAS and V1, you reject for:
1. Any Master Warning,
2. Any fire,
3. Any severe damage,
4. Sudden loss of engine thrust,
5. Perception the aircraft is unsafe to fly,
6. And four Master Cautions:
A. Sidestick Failure
B. Engine Failure
C. Thurst Reverser Fault
D. Thrust Reverser Unlocked
Aren't the thrust reverser items listed above inhibited from application of takeoff thrust
to 1500Ft AGL?If so, how are you to get a Master Caution?
Answer:
After review of your query we would like to provide you with the following information.
First, as you mentioned, the ENG REV FAULT caution is inhibited in flight during the takeoff
phase.
However, with reference to the latest issue of the FCOM 3.02.10, dated Jun 09, the rejected
takeoff procedure has been simplified in order to ease the rejected takeoff decision making.
The list of situations that can lead to the decision to reject takeoff above 100knots has been
changed to:
1. Fire warning, or severe damage ;
2. Sudden loss of engine thrust ;
3. Malfunctions or conditions that give unambiguous indications that the aircraft will not fly
safely.
4. Any red ECAM warning.
5. Any amber ECAM caution of the ENG system or the F/CTL system.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 98
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From: Greece
Sox0104,
Hi and thank you for your answer. What you wrote in red makes sense, no doubt.
Just wondering why our FCOM 3 REV 43 dated Jun 09 has still the "old" version of the four amber messages.
Hi and thank you for your answer. What you wrote in red makes sense, no doubt.
Just wondering why our FCOM 3 REV 43 dated Jun 09 has still the "old" version of the four amber messages.
