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AF447

Old 5th Jun 2009, 22:25
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Sure, the MAX ALT given by QRH incorporates some margin.




What I wanted to point out is that they were most probably at the limit for normal ops. In my mind I do add some turbulence, AP loss including stall protection loss and some techincal problems to take care for (and to subtract attention) during a stormy night. I think every pilot would be at his / her utter limits.

As a probable cause I don't need any lightning or bomb, just too less margin with unexpected trouble, causing distraction.
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 22:26
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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News reg ADIRU from AF: in a message to all pilots they informed that they will replace all ADIRUS in the A330 fleet with another make.
Interesting, since we know that those ones are not the same make as the QF ones.
Message is from 2200 MET via AP.

Danny
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 22:30
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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What about ADS?

I'm sure AF447 was ADS equipped. We do know that CPDLC and ADS are only on test in the Atlantico and Dakar FIR. We have being using CPDLC with Dakar on a test basis for quite a long time now, and one logs-in 45 to 15 minutes before the entry point. Would it be possible to know if Atlantico or at least Senegalese ATC have had any ADS reports from the AF447? That would help...
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 22:37
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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AP/FD OFF
Auto Thr OFF

They were in level flight so the rest of the items need not be mentioned. Next would be to check what the GPS is showing as speed and altitude. Now you can proceed with the ADR Check procedure.
Poison a very good post IMHO but what do you mean by the underlined section please?

As I read the Unreliable A/S C/L even in crz you are obliged to set CLB detent power and 5 degree pitch after the initial actions above but before any diagnosis. This ensures that the A/C is safe surely? Yes it will climb but you will not stall and not overspeed. The C/L will next lead into approx 80% N1 & 2.5 degree pitch NU. (On a 320 )

Last edited by fred bloggs; 5th Jun 2009 at 22:59.
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 22:40
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Broomstick for the flight plan.

Starbear:
I refer only to a serviceable aeroplane here but if anyone finds themselves with insufficient thrust to maintain speed through turbulence when above optimum altitude or above severe turbulence recommended levels, there is always the option of descent.
In that case that could have meant into the real soup.
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 22:41
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Capt

Quote:
So the question is "Given the same route and passenger/freight loading would the A340-300 be operating with a greater speed margin at FL350"?.

The answer is NO
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 22:42
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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set CLB detent power and 5 degree pitch after the initial actions above but before any diagnosis. This ensures that the A/C is safe surely? Yes it will climb but you will not stall and not overspeed.
Are you sure about that ? At Max Alt ???

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Old 5th Jun 2009, 22:47
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding claims for impending ADs:

EASA AD List in date order

As of time off posting (which is after EOB in Europe today of course) NO EASA ADs issued in the last several days regarding A330. If any are issued they will end up here pretty quickly.
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:06
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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Are you sure about that ? At Max Alt ???
At max alt no it will probably not climb a lot but what are the options?

The important thing to remember with unreliable airspeed is to carry out the initial actions before any diagnosis. If you get bogged down in fault finding you will almost certainly lose control of the a/c. The C/L does not (IMHO) specify phase of flight for the memory items.
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:07
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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IMHO very good post from Poison, he knows the bus well.

for fredd blogs... he probably meant that the rest of the memory items did not apply for that portion of the flight, if I am not mistaking are:
FLAPS MANTAIN CONFIGURATION, SPEED BRAKES CHECK RETRACTED, L/G UP WHEN AIRBORNE....

5 degrees pitch and CLB THRUST is a memory item if you are above thrust reduction altitude and FL100, but if you are in cruise you have to check the QRH for the correct values. For the 320 are btw 1.5 and 2.5 pitch up and 83 to 87% N1
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:14
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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5 degrees pitch and CLB THRUST is a memory item if you are above thrust reduction altitude and FL100, but if you are in cruise you have to check the QRH for the correct values. For the 320 are btw 1.5 and 2.5 pitch up and 83 to 87% N1
Vent0 thanks but my point is where does it say NOT to do the memory items when in CRZ?

I ask as I am trying to find out as opposed to arguing with you or Poison.

(Your figures are of course weight dependent so mine were approx)
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:22
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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I do not see / understand
  • TCAS antenna fault (I do not see any reasoning from the actual message.)
  • all three inertial references fault (just speaking about IR2, no?)
  • all static ports (understood at least one 341115, but all?)
  • how it is derived that the gyro of ISIS is broken
Could somebody enlighten my knowledge about ACARS messages please?
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:24
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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I´m not an bus-driver, but isn´t pitch and power performance?
Back to basics? Or doesn´t it work that way in an airbus.....?
testpanel:

02:11Z:
Failure of all three ADIRUs
Failure of gyros of ISIS (attitude information lost)
...and where will you get the pitch attitude?
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:25
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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Triple Bravo

In that case that could have meant into the real soup.
Yes indeed, that is possible but if you don't recover that speed then you are going into that soup one way or another.

My original comments were intended as genera,l when "caught out" above optimum altitude, rather than specific to this case as I am determined to avoid personal speculation.

But one would hope/assume that in taking action to recover the speed by descent then due attention would also be given to try and avoid the worst of any CB activity and yes I am aware that if speed was so slow, then any turning manoeuvre is going to exacerbate the problem or at least delay the sped recovery. In such circumstances one can only try to strike the best balance and at that moment speed is king. I believe.
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:25
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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sorry fredd I did not mean to argue just to help.

I meant that memory items on the bus fleets are not many, and in the case of UNRELIABLE SPEED INDICATION/ADR CHECK PROC apart from the common ones that Poison gave the attitudes and thrust settings are MEMORY only for the first part of the flight (take off and climb).

I guess Airbus thinks that in cruise you will be able to pull out the QRH and check. In my case I remember the values for the cruise as well... but may be I am from the old school

Last edited by vento0; 5th Jun 2009 at 23:58.
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:30
  #216 (permalink)  
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Last edited by ByteJockey; 5th Jun 2009 at 23:47.
 
Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:31
  #217 (permalink)  
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fred bloggs Quote:
5 degrees pitch and CLB THRUST is a memory item if you are above thrust reduction altitude and FL100, but if you are in cruise you have to check the QRH for the correct values. For the 320 are btw 1.5 and 2.5 pitch up and 83 to 87% N1

Vent0 thanks but my point is where does it say NOT to do the memory items when in CRZ?

I ask as I am trying to find out as opposed to arguing with you or Poison.
As it pertains to this AF thread, the ability to hold any kind of pitch to within a degree or 2 at FL350 is nullfied by the presence of severe or extreme turbulence, the definition of which is the aircraft is at least sometimes "impossible to control", especially in a sluggish, wallowing aircraft. That means your pitch may be at least partially controlled not by you, but by outside forces you're merely fighting to counteract.

Throw in being knocked around on the roll axis with the corresponding sudden rises in wing loading (which will further serve to degrade speed and raise the low-speed buffet margin) threatening to stall one or both wings because you're high, and the only answer arises....pitch for a descent if possible to help maintain and increase aerodynamic control, and keep it right side up.

And if you're caught in a CB-produced severe updraft that lets go while you're still in a nose-up, level flight attitude based on FL350 numbers, at FL370 that same attitude puts you in a world of hurt. What works as an answer for the single problem of erroneous airspeed readings at 10000' or FL350 in smooth air isn't necassarily the best answer or what should be applied to what the AF likely found itself in.

Last edited by AMF; 5th Jun 2009 at 23:41.
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:32
  #218 (permalink)  
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Mad_Scientist;
As of time off posting (which is after EOB in Europe today of course) NO EASA ADs issued in the last several days regarding A330.
Correct. I think somebody didn't read very carefully the 2002 AD on pitot probes posted here a few pages ago and the story now has a life of it's own which is completely unfounded. There are no mass pitot tube changes about to take place on the 330. Nobody knows anything that detailed yet so on what basis would such an AD be issued? It is Air France that is replacing pitot tubes and they say the note is "to their pilots" so it isn't an AD or even an AB. That said, I wonder if it's related to the 2002 AD?...

aquadalte;
Notwithstanding greenspinner's excellent work, the list of ACARS messages you've quoted from the AvHerald differs in the details from the ones posted and examined here:

02:10Z:
Autothrust off
Autopilot off
FBW alternate law
Rudder Travel Limiter Fault
TCAS fault due to antenna fault - do we know this is an antenna fault by the ATA #? If not, how is the comment "due to antenna fault" established?
Flight Envelope Computation warning
All pitot static ports lost - again, do we know that "all" sensors were lost from the ATA code? Also, what are "pitot static ports"? - the term refers to two separate systems - the pitot system and the static system - "ports" usually refers to the static system but not to the pitot system.
02:11Z:
Failure of all three ADIRUs - is this confirmed by the ATA code beyond greenspinner's research, (see earlier post)?
Failure of gyros of ISIS (attitude information lost) - again, is this specified in the ATA code?
02:12Z:
ADIRUs Air Data disagree
02:13Z:
Flight Management, Guidance and Envelope Computer fault
PRIM 1 fault
SEC 1 fault
02:14Z:
Cabin Pressure Controller fault (cabin vertical speed) - the ACARS message reads, WRN . . . . "2131000206ADVISORY" only - though it is a warning, does the ATA code specify the "cabin pressure controller fault" and "cabin vertical speed"? messages?

I would like to know if this is the media at work again quoting posts here, (even given the credibility of the specific source), or if there is more information that has been derived from the ATA codes presented earlier in the thread such as greenspinner's. Obviously something serious occurred but I wouldn't want to conclude that, based upon just the original messages and these above, the sources of which I have either missed or have been "supplied", the aircraft as a flying brick until more was known.

Thanks kindly, - PJ2

Last edited by PJ2; 6th Jun 2009 at 01:01.
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:35
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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RVSM

Thanks Mad(flt),

for your EASA - AD list.
But thats not how the system works.
Maybe it shows up next week.
You have to do an RVSM check on aircrafts every year,
where you look into pitot-tubes with instruments ,
in connection with an ATC-TEST.
That should avoid Airpeed- failures.
But, what, if the guys , washing the airplane,
forget to remove the "blanking tape"
after finnishing their work.
Happens before, a couple of times.
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Old 5th Jun 2009, 23:36
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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Unreliable Airspeed Indications on Modern Aircraft

Its interesting that prior to the Malaysian B777 upset near Perth in Aug 2005, Boeing did not provide a QRH item for this, as due to design features,it was deemed that it was impossible for this to happen. They do now apparently.

Did Airbus always provide this guidance? Perhaps their design differs.
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