'Toxic' cabin air found in new plane study - Telegraph
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GM Aircrew
Big Bad D,
You can't win here, try and keep it nice and simple and there's not enough evidence - give the evidence and it's too much...
To be honest I am not a filter expert but I can put you in touch with one who assures us that anything is possible but in the past cost has put airlines off (may add 10p to the cost of a ticket...) but really it is the fact that all of us 'victims' will want to know "why now?" Which might be 'tricky' to answer?
Most kids would come up with filters as a means of cleaning air and the filter companies know all about it. We have been trying to get the UK Govt to identify the visible fumes from an APU on the ground, which can be generated in minutes. After 2 full years they STILL do not know. That sounds a bit like denial and not wanting to face the truth to me. (Correction they DO know, but they don't want the likes of you and me to know).
How does that make you feel?
Full wings
Can't you see that a full and honest confession of what they know would be a trifle inconvenient and that the best way forward is silence and denial.
Even the word aerotoxic is off limits for much of the media, including the BBC. That makes open debate quite difficult....
Full wings underestimate yourself, if you saw the data you would blow the whistle too.
I guess everybody is aware of the smoking issue which went on for years and years - I wonder why? and now MOST people agree that breathing smoke is BAD for you. Well I breathed visible smoke / fumes for 16 years (Thank you Vertical Speed) which contain neuro toxic chemicals - I only found out a year after I stopped flying that I had TCP in me....having had exactly the same symptoms that the oil tin described - IT DOES WHAT IT SAYS ON THE TIN!
By the way, they have taken the warning off now! As too many people were complaining of ill health. More evidence of a very dirty, messy business.
Just like V/S I have been lucky to have regained my former good health but I know many who have not been so fortunate and there is now an ever growing list of past victims dying prematurely - that's as bad as it gets and it just makes me feel sick - again.
Sorry to bang on but this is a really important issue which accounts for masses of serious mysterious ill health and it's about time it was stopped, for everybody's sake.
Full Wings, please PM me if I can help provide you with the convincing evidence you need and thanks to the Mods for letting it roll....
DB
Dream Buster, instead of yet another speech, please help share the answer to the reasonable question posed by FullWings: "What kind of filters are these and what are they filtering?"
To be honest I am not a filter expert but I can put you in touch with one who assures us that anything is possible but in the past cost has put airlines off (may add 10p to the cost of a ticket...) but really it is the fact that all of us 'victims' will want to know "why now?" Which might be 'tricky' to answer?
Most kids would come up with filters as a means of cleaning air and the filter companies know all about it. We have been trying to get the UK Govt to identify the visible fumes from an APU on the ground, which can be generated in minutes. After 2 full years they STILL do not know. That sounds a bit like denial and not wanting to face the truth to me. (Correction they DO know, but they don't want the likes of you and me to know).
How does that make you feel?
Full wings
That's a big job, currently being worked on by far better qualified people than myself and I don't see a conclusion even on the horizon yet...
Even the word aerotoxic is off limits for much of the media, including the BBC. That makes open debate quite difficult....
Full wings underestimate yourself, if you saw the data you would blow the whistle too.
I guess everybody is aware of the smoking issue which went on for years and years - I wonder why? and now MOST people agree that breathing smoke is BAD for you. Well I breathed visible smoke / fumes for 16 years (Thank you Vertical Speed) which contain neuro toxic chemicals - I only found out a year after I stopped flying that I had TCP in me....having had exactly the same symptoms that the oil tin described - IT DOES WHAT IT SAYS ON THE TIN!
By the way, they have taken the warning off now! As too many people were complaining of ill health. More evidence of a very dirty, messy business.
Just like V/S I have been lucky to have regained my former good health but I know many who have not been so fortunate and there is now an ever growing list of past victims dying prematurely - that's as bad as it gets and it just makes me feel sick - again.
Sorry to bang on but this is a really important issue which accounts for masses of serious mysterious ill health and it's about time it was stopped, for everybody's sake.
Full Wings, please PM me if I can help provide you with the convincing evidence you need and thanks to the Mods for letting it roll....
DB
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Health risks...
Having spent over 9 years at university in Europe and the United States and close to 8 years in industrial research and development before changing tracks and becoming an airline pilot I´d like to add some views to this discussion.
Based on my own scientific experience with analytical techniques like chromatography, atomic absorption spectroscopy etc. , verification of compounds on a molecular level, i.e. single molecules, is state of the art. The fact that some compounds are shown to be present at molecular level doesn´t mean you will get sick. Now where is the pathogenic level ? While some people suffer from symptoms some don´t, at the same exposure level. Our own genetic fingerprint makes us unique in our looks as well as our ability to get sick or not.
While the TCP issue is of concern, I am always amazed about the fact that hard and cosmic radiation effects are quite often overlooked or even ignored just because you can´t smell it nor see it. We all drink a hot cup of coffee out of plastic cups on a daily basis, finish that PET-bottle of water every day to fight the dry air up there, yet we silently accept to “digest” small little molecules of PET processing additives without really knowing its long term effects on our health. We use our cellular phones and sit at the desk and write comments like this on PPRUNE while the WLAN antenna is radiating. Feel the headache ?
Our cardio-vascular systems are subjected to heavy loads of submicron or more trendy “nano” carbon particles from our engines on the ground and from our cars while driving to and from duty.
I think, I call in sick tomorrow…
Based on my own scientific experience with analytical techniques like chromatography, atomic absorption spectroscopy etc. , verification of compounds on a molecular level, i.e. single molecules, is state of the art. The fact that some compounds are shown to be present at molecular level doesn´t mean you will get sick. Now where is the pathogenic level ? While some people suffer from symptoms some don´t, at the same exposure level. Our own genetic fingerprint makes us unique in our looks as well as our ability to get sick or not.
While the TCP issue is of concern, I am always amazed about the fact that hard and cosmic radiation effects are quite often overlooked or even ignored just because you can´t smell it nor see it. We all drink a hot cup of coffee out of plastic cups on a daily basis, finish that PET-bottle of water every day to fight the dry air up there, yet we silently accept to “digest” small little molecules of PET processing additives without really knowing its long term effects on our health. We use our cellular phones and sit at the desk and write comments like this on PPRUNE while the WLAN antenna is radiating. Feel the headache ?
Our cardio-vascular systems are subjected to heavy loads of submicron or more trendy “nano” carbon particles from our engines on the ground and from our cars while driving to and from duty.
I think, I call in sick tomorrow…
Dream Buster, I have in the past participated in the reviews of a number of the fune and incapacitation incidents that have been referred to; and my personal conclusion is that there is indeed a significant issue that needs to be addressed and which some people unfortuantely appear more prone to. However, behind the allegations of industry cover-ups, I have yet to be convinced that there is adequate understanding of exactly what are the causes and hence the appropriate solutions. And I don't believe that this is through a lack of industry testing and analysis. Hence my quite genuine desire to know what it is you believe we should be filtering against?
I am not disagreeing with you that there are people with severe medical issues and that something should be done based on sound investigations. But I am frustrated to keep hearing the same knee-jerk campaigns that seem to suggest that the industry already knows what the problem is and how it should be fixed. The only 100% safe solution I know of, where there would never be a risk of oil contamination, would be to ground all current generation aircraft that use engine bleed air...
I am not disagreeing with you that there are people with severe medical issues and that something should be done based on sound investigations. But I am frustrated to keep hearing the same knee-jerk campaigns that seem to suggest that the industry already knows what the problem is and how it should be fixed. The only 100% safe solution I know of, where there would never be a risk of oil contamination, would be to ground all current generation aircraft that use engine bleed air...
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Over 24 hours of breathing visible oil fumes...
Big Bad D,
I'll try and keep it simple - as it is important.
When you start an APU on a 146 it is very easy to mistakenly fill the entire aircraft with visible or stinky invisible oil fumes.
I have many testimonies from pilots who will confirm this. This phenomenon is actually referred to in BBC Panorama - 'Something in the air?' here At the bottom of the home page.
So if one flew for 16 years it would be say 10 minutes exposure to these fumes X 3 days per week = 30 minutes per week X 40 weeks per year = 1200 minutes = 20 hours per year X 16 years = 320 hours exposure to breathing visible oil fumes. Divide it by 10 for reality = 32 hours.
Over 24 hours breathing visible oil fumes in a confined space spread repetetively over 16 years.
You can put various numbers into the above equation but you are left with people (pilots and Cabin Crew) breathing visible smoke in a confined space - repetetively.
So the question is, what is in the fumes? We have been asking the DfT for the chemicals and concentration for over 2 years now and guess what? Nobody knows - well they do, but it is bad news so they don't want people to know.
This information would provide the filter manufacturers with a very good idea of how to make their filters and what to filter out.
None of this is 'knee jerk' - they are cold hard facts waiting to be published one day and the industry is in total denial of the danger of these fumes and what's worse, they know it.
How do they get away with it? Well the fumes cook ones brain to the point that one can't rationally deal with it. The perfect crime?
Any bleed air aircraft can create visible oil fumes - another fact.
DB
PS. I also had a full blown fume event in 2002 when the whole a/c (not the cockpit) filled with thick white smoke for around 5 minutes after t/o - I felt really ill (I was already seriously ill at the time from 1989) for months and years afterwards until I finally quit flying in 2005.
I knew nothing of this subject at the time and would not know anything about it until mid 2006 - please learn from my experience, if you value your health?
I'll try and keep it simple - as it is important.
When you start an APU on a 146 it is very easy to mistakenly fill the entire aircraft with visible or stinky invisible oil fumes.
I have many testimonies from pilots who will confirm this. This phenomenon is actually referred to in BBC Panorama - 'Something in the air?' here At the bottom of the home page.
So if one flew for 16 years it would be say 10 minutes exposure to these fumes X 3 days per week = 30 minutes per week X 40 weeks per year = 1200 minutes = 20 hours per year X 16 years = 320 hours exposure to breathing visible oil fumes. Divide it by 10 for reality = 32 hours.
Over 24 hours breathing visible oil fumes in a confined space spread repetetively over 16 years.
You can put various numbers into the above equation but you are left with people (pilots and Cabin Crew) breathing visible smoke in a confined space - repetetively.
So the question is, what is in the fumes? We have been asking the DfT for the chemicals and concentration for over 2 years now and guess what? Nobody knows - well they do, but it is bad news so they don't want people to know.
This information would provide the filter manufacturers with a very good idea of how to make their filters and what to filter out.
None of this is 'knee jerk' - they are cold hard facts waiting to be published one day and the industry is in total denial of the danger of these fumes and what's worse, they know it.
How do they get away with it? Well the fumes cook ones brain to the point that one can't rationally deal with it. The perfect crime?
Any bleed air aircraft can create visible oil fumes - another fact.
DB
PS. I also had a full blown fume event in 2002 when the whole a/c (not the cockpit) filled with thick white smoke for around 5 minutes after t/o - I felt really ill (I was already seriously ill at the time from 1989) for months and years afterwards until I finally quit flying in 2005.
I knew nothing of this subject at the time and would not know anything about it until mid 2006 - please learn from my experience, if you value your health?
de-icing fluid also
De icing fluid also can get into the system via the APU inlet, thats pretty nasty too apart from the organo' oil mist hazard.
This is a REAL problem folks but as usual the bean counters will win the day....
This is a REAL problem folks but as usual the bean counters will win the day....
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Trousers down.
Old - Timer,
With the greatest of respect to you; most people would agree that the 'bean counters' are being caught with their trousers down - at the moment.
DB
With the greatest of respect to you; most people would agree that the 'bean counters' are being caught with their trousers down - at the moment.
DB
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Well you can actually see it and touch it ...
Just because you can't see it nor touch it it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Most of these aircraft will be 25 to 30 yrs old at the time.
The avionics bay insulation and underfloor ducts, wiring and cabling will usually have a sticky to the touch thin film of 'something' but it smells like engine oil , it's so uniform it looks like it's been sprayed on , these are in extremely unaccessible areas of the airframe which would rarely be viewed let alone cleaned during a major service.
To the curious Boeing 727 + 737 classic pilots and engineers have a look behind the the forward rack in the avionics bay with a maglite (near the relay bank) and to where the walls of the avionics bay meets the bottom of the floor and you should be able to see what I am talking about.
If you ever knew a really heavy smoker who liked to smoke with the windows closed in the car it's like the sticky tar that gets left on the inside of a car's windows.
By comparison cable runs and other components in the top of the fuselage (behind the ceiling panels) still look like new 30 yrs after installation , clean !
So there is some evidence as the aircraft get's older (due to components not working as well as they did or less than optimum maintenance) contaminents are entering the pressure compartment and over a period of decades you can see it in some parts of the aircraft.
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Breathtaking complacency
At Flight International/flightglobal.com we don't just believe toxic cabin air is a serious issue, we know it is and have demonstrated it, publishing the evidence.
The result has been total silence from the industry. No denials, because they know they can't deny it. No complaints, because they want the issue to remain obscure.
They know the burden of proof remains, at present, with the many pilots and cabin crew who have been damaged by TCP and other neurotoxins in aircraft cabins, and with the unknown number of passengers who simply don't have any way of knowing where their distressing symptoms have suddenly emerged from.
We have been appalled by the pilot unions' complicity in this cover-up. They think jobs are more important than lives and licences.
In the face of this apparently unscaleable wall of complacency we have set up a space on our forum AirSpace here:
Have you suffered from contaminated cabin air? - Airliners/Freighters Forum - AirSpace
We are not trying to gather more evidence - we have that in spades and have watched in disbelief as the entire system, including members of parliament, either ignore it or have the wooll pulled over their eyes.
We are trying to get those have suffered or are suffering from aerotoxic syndrome, to tell us their story publicly.
They can identify themselves if they want to, but - especially if they are pilots who fear the loss of their jobs by reporting, or those who have received compensation subject to a gagging order - we promise we will keep their identities confidential if they want us to.
We want those who have suffered to paint a picture of the scale of human misery that this avoidable situation has created, and will continue to create.
Until such a time as there is a mandate from national aviation authorities for fitting contaminant detectors/alerts and bleed air filters to take out the neurotoxins in all aircraft (HEPA filters don't do it and they're wrongly placed in the system), this problem remains a risk in all pressurised aeroplanes flying today.
If you want the background to our campaign, visit my blog.but the most important thing is for those who have a story to tell to go to the previous link and tell the world just how bad it is if you get a dose of this contamination.
The result has been total silence from the industry. No denials, because they know they can't deny it. No complaints, because they want the issue to remain obscure.
They know the burden of proof remains, at present, with the many pilots and cabin crew who have been damaged by TCP and other neurotoxins in aircraft cabins, and with the unknown number of passengers who simply don't have any way of knowing where their distressing symptoms have suddenly emerged from.
We have been appalled by the pilot unions' complicity in this cover-up. They think jobs are more important than lives and licences.
In the face of this apparently unscaleable wall of complacency we have set up a space on our forum AirSpace here:
Have you suffered from contaminated cabin air? - Airliners/Freighters Forum - AirSpace
We are not trying to gather more evidence - we have that in spades and have watched in disbelief as the entire system, including members of parliament, either ignore it or have the wooll pulled over their eyes.
We are trying to get those have suffered or are suffering from aerotoxic syndrome, to tell us their story publicly.
They can identify themselves if they want to, but - especially if they are pilots who fear the loss of their jobs by reporting, or those who have received compensation subject to a gagging order - we promise we will keep their identities confidential if they want us to.
We want those who have suffered to paint a picture of the scale of human misery that this avoidable situation has created, and will continue to create.
Until such a time as there is a mandate from national aviation authorities for fitting contaminant detectors/alerts and bleed air filters to take out the neurotoxins in all aircraft (HEPA filters don't do it and they're wrongly placed in the system), this problem remains a risk in all pressurised aeroplanes flying today.
If you want the background to our campaign, visit my blog.but the most important thing is for those who have a story to tell to go to the previous link and tell the world just how bad it is if you get a dose of this contamination.
Last edited by Bad medicine; 2nd Mar 2009 at 21:38. Reason: Removed link to blog on another site
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Southern boy,
I regret to say that there are so many obvious things to test in connection with contaminated cabin air.
One is left with the impression that the lack of information says it all.
Any testing is dragged out over years and years or simply brushed under the carpet - all to prevent the truth coming out.
But it will one day - then what?
David L,
You and your team at Flight International are to be congratulated in bringing this serious issue right to the top of the agenda.
I used to read FI in the newsagent and buy it occasionally - I will be subscribing from tomorrow - I don't want to miss an issue as it heats up...
I particularly enjoyed the swipe at the Union but would remind you that the brave IPA are on side and have decent morals, fortunately.
What I can't work out is - How are they going to deal with this when it's all proved beyond reasonable doubt?
With great difficulty?
I really don't bet at all, ever - but I would on this one.
DB
I regret to say that there are so many obvious things to test in connection with contaminated cabin air.
One is left with the impression that the lack of information says it all.
Any testing is dragged out over years and years or simply brushed under the carpet - all to prevent the truth coming out.
But it will one day - then what?
David L,
You and your team at Flight International are to be congratulated in bringing this serious issue right to the top of the agenda.
I used to read FI in the newsagent and buy it occasionally - I will be subscribing from tomorrow - I don't want to miss an issue as it heats up...
I particularly enjoyed the swipe at the Union but would remind you that the brave IPA are on side and have decent morals, fortunately.
What I can't work out is - How are they going to deal with this when it's all proved beyond reasonable doubt?
With great difficulty?
I really don't bet at all, ever - but I would on this one.
DB
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David Learmount:
Your comment seems rather a sweeping statement. The Independent Pilots Association/Federation have been applying pressure on this subject whenever possible. Indeed all U.K. members received a DVD at the end of last year entitled 'Welcome Aboard Toxic Airlines'.
They also provide support to the Global Cabin Air Quality Executive, as can be seen if you go to Global Cabin Air Quality Executive | GCAQE
'We have been appalled by the pilot unions' complicity in this cover-up. They think jobs are more important than lives and licences.'
They also provide support to the Global Cabin Air Quality Executive, as can be seen if you go to Global Cabin Air Quality Executive | GCAQE
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I just can't believe how so many people in this thread can ignore all the stories of the horrible human consequences to fellow pilots.
So you happen to be okay, right?
And you've been a pilot for years, right?
So you reckon the pilots who weren't so lucky deserved all they got, or are just wimps with no resistance, or they're making it up, right?
This just makes me sick. Go and have a look at the human stories DL provided links to and wake up! These are people, they are pilots, and they have been badly damaged. Right?
So you happen to be okay, right?
And you've been a pilot for years, right?
So you reckon the pilots who weren't so lucky deserved all they got, or are just wimps with no resistance, or they're making it up, right?
This just makes me sick. Go and have a look at the human stories DL provided links to and wake up! These are people, they are pilots, and they have been badly damaged. Right?
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The avionics bay insulation and underfloor ducts, wiring and cabling will usually have a sticky to the touch thin film of 'something' but it smells like engine oil
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That's quite bad, a lot of people will be at stake as a result of these 'toxic' fumes. I would expect that the government would act appropriately.
Make I also ask, which organisation would be in charge in this sort of incident?
I also find it quite interesting that not all aircrafts are the same in terms of the Pressurisation. - Learnt something new! (I'm a wannabe)
Make I also ask, which organisation would be in charge in this sort of incident?
I also find it quite interesting that not all aircrafts are the same in terms of the Pressurisation. - Learnt something new!
(I'm a wannabe)
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Basil, with respect, I can't calm down when my fellow pilots are being poisoned and people tell me to calm down about it.
The fact that everybody's taking this so calmly that nothing's being done about it is what makes me angry.
The fact that everybody's taking this so calmly that nothing's being done about it is what makes me angry.
I would not deny that there is or at times may be contamination in public transport cabins. A thread was started last year which seemed to have a bit of an axe to grind, together with some very unlikely contamination suggestions. Because one type has a bad reputation amongst crewmembers does not mean that all aircraft are affected.
I'm probably guilty of doing the old 'when I were lad' re air contamination in industry, plating shops, diesel engine rooms and industrial towns and comparing those conditions with modern elfin safety rules.
p.s. Sorry for being a bossyboots.
I'm probably guilty of doing the old 'when I were lad' re air contamination in industry, plating shops, diesel engine rooms and industrial towns and comparing those conditions with modern elfin safety rules.
p.s. Sorry for being a bossyboots.
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19 different aircraft types
Basil,
There were 48 Contaminated Air Events notified to the AAIB from 6th February 2006 - 11th November 2007.
This was made up of 19 different aircraft types.
Any bleed air system is capable of producing fumes / smoke when it goes wrong. Ask Boeing....
DB
There were 48 Contaminated Air Events notified to the AAIB from 6th February 2006 - 11th November 2007.
This was made up of 19 different aircraft types.
Any bleed air system is capable of producing fumes / smoke when it goes wrong. Ask Boeing....
DB
please wait
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GERMAN TV Program in English now available for online viewing
This is to inform you that the original German TV program about this issue as of Feb. 3rd 2009 is now available for online viewing at the following link:
DasErste - Video Player
happy landings
TvB
DasErste - Video Player
happy landings
TvB