'Toxic' cabin air found in new plane study - Telegraph
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OP symptoms
Iompaseo,
Organophosphate Poisoning - symptoms and treatment | Dr Myhill
Here's a good list for starters - real pilots don't get sick - they just have 'Mysterious ill's which they can't identify the cause of...until it's too late'
OP's take out your Central Nervous System (multiple system failure) and by definition - we all have different genes and exposures - it's a complete lottery.
One third - 33% are poor detoxifiers and will suffer - if you don't, good for you. I am seriously envious of the 67%.
DB
Organophosphate Poisoning - symptoms and treatment | Dr Myhill
Here's a good list for starters - real pilots don't get sick - they just have 'Mysterious ill's which they can't identify the cause of...until it's too late'
OP's take out your Central Nervous System (multiple system failure) and by definition - we all have different genes and exposures - it's a complete lottery.
One third - 33% are poor detoxifiers and will suffer - if you don't, good for you. I am seriously envious of the 67%.
DB
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I am surprised nobody has mentioned this report so far.. Credit to BBC news website.
BBC News - A cleaner future in the air?
Ref: I've never had any problems.....etc, about 30 years ago I took an interest in the un-willingness of MAFF (Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food) as it then was, to strive for any conclusions or further any definitive research into the OP/sheep-dip problems in the face of statistics showing the increasing numbers of farmers experiencing physical/mental/suicidal problems. Leaving out of the equation any possible pressures by the Agro-chemical industry, they were aided in their inertia by those users who would say - 'bunch of whingers, I've been gargling with/bathing in this stuff without any ill-effects for fifty years' while at the same time previously sane, upstanding, hard-working farmers who used OP sheep-dips were shooting/hanging themselves for no apparent reason.
As mentioned, it's a lottery who gets affected (in aviation and, previously ((before the banning of OP sheep-dips)), in agriculture) and who does not.
BBC News - A cleaner future in the air?
Ref: I've never had any problems.....etc, about 30 years ago I took an interest in the un-willingness of MAFF (Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food) as it then was, to strive for any conclusions or further any definitive research into the OP/sheep-dip problems in the face of statistics showing the increasing numbers of farmers experiencing physical/mental/suicidal problems. Leaving out of the equation any possible pressures by the Agro-chemical industry, they were aided in their inertia by those users who would say - 'bunch of whingers, I've been gargling with/bathing in this stuff without any ill-effects for fifty years' while at the same time previously sane, upstanding, hard-working farmers who used OP sheep-dips were shooting/hanging themselves for no apparent reason.
As mentioned, it's a lottery who gets affected (in aviation and, previously ((before the banning of OP sheep-dips)), in agriculture) and who does not.
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Aerotoxic - Rubbish - the Airline Manager view point
What a load of complete alamist nonesense your site is. A blatent attempt to boost sales of a completely useless product through feer.
Absolute rubbish!
Absolute rubbish!
Generally we find that people 'get it' - but only when they have been personally affected by serious ill health, which they can link to their repeated 'normal' exposures to oil fumes over many years.
I can assure the Airline Manager that 'sales' are non existent, at the moment. It's colleagues health we are concerned about.
All comments gratefully recieved - in the interests of a healthy debate on the issue - that won't go away.
DB
Last edited by Dream Buster; 12th Dec 2009 at 17:49. Reason: spelling typo
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More from the telegraph: Boeing 787 Dreamliner is a breath of fresh cabin air
Boeing 787 Dreamliner is a breath of fresh cabin air
The successful launch of the Boeing Dreamliner this week has highlighted concerns about the amount of toxic air in conventional aircraft cabins.
By Charles Starmer-Smith
Published: 8:00AM GMT 19 Dec 2009
The new lightweight plane, which is designed to cut fuel costs by 20 per cent, has been hailed as the answer to the problem of contaminated air that scientists claim affects up to 200,000 British passengers each year – known in the industry as aerotoxic syndrome.
Since 1963, all commercial aircraft have used the "bleed air" system, whereby compressed air is drawn through the engines and into the cabin. The air passes through filters that remove bacteria or viruses but do not remove fumes or vapours from the engine – so if there is an oil or hydraulic fuel leak, toxic chemicals can contaminate the air supply.
On its new Dreamliner, Boeing is to pump fresh cabin air from a separate source (away from the engines) for the first time since the Fifties. This had previously been deemed too expensive.
"This marks a serious milestone in aviation history, with the long-awaited first flight of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner," said Tristan Lorraine, a former commercial pilot and spokesman for the Global Cabin Air Quality Executive (GCAQE), which represents thousands of airline staff. "The GCAQE urges other manufacturers to design aircraft with this new 'bleed-free' design and stop using out-of-date technologies, which fail to protect passengers and crews from being exposed to toxic chemicals."
Earlier this year, undercover investigators claimed to have found high levels of a dangerous toxin on several planes using the bleed-air system. Of 31 swab samples taken secretly from the aircraft cabins of popular airlines, 28 were found to contain high levels of tricresyl phosphate (TCP), an organophosphate contained in modern jet oil as an anti-wear additive, which can lead to drowsiness, respiratory problems and neurological illnesses.
Dr Mackenzie Ross, a clinical neuropsychologist at University College London, has claimed that contaminated cabin air may affect up to 200,000 passengers each year. A Telegraph Travel investigation last year disclosed that hundreds of incidents of contaminated air had been reported by British pilots.
Reports linking exposure to contaminated air with long-term harm to health have led to an increase in the number of passengers and crew seeking redress. Earlier this year a former American Airlines attendant, Terry Williams, 40, launched a lawsuit against Boeing over illnesses she claims were caused by toxic fumes.
A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority said that investigations were continuing, but that there was no evidence of a link between cabin air and ill health.
Boeing 787 Dreamliner is a breath of fresh cabin air
The successful launch of the Boeing Dreamliner this week has highlighted concerns about the amount of toxic air in conventional aircraft cabins.
By Charles Starmer-Smith
Published: 8:00AM GMT 19 Dec 2009
The new lightweight plane, which is designed to cut fuel costs by 20 per cent, has been hailed as the answer to the problem of contaminated air that scientists claim affects up to 200,000 British passengers each year – known in the industry as aerotoxic syndrome.
Since 1963, all commercial aircraft have used the "bleed air" system, whereby compressed air is drawn through the engines and into the cabin. The air passes through filters that remove bacteria or viruses but do not remove fumes or vapours from the engine – so if there is an oil or hydraulic fuel leak, toxic chemicals can contaminate the air supply.
On its new Dreamliner, Boeing is to pump fresh cabin air from a separate source (away from the engines) for the first time since the Fifties. This had previously been deemed too expensive.
"This marks a serious milestone in aviation history, with the long-awaited first flight of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner," said Tristan Lorraine, a former commercial pilot and spokesman for the Global Cabin Air Quality Executive (GCAQE), which represents thousands of airline staff. "The GCAQE urges other manufacturers to design aircraft with this new 'bleed-free' design and stop using out-of-date technologies, which fail to protect passengers and crews from being exposed to toxic chemicals."
Earlier this year, undercover investigators claimed to have found high levels of a dangerous toxin on several planes using the bleed-air system. Of 31 swab samples taken secretly from the aircraft cabins of popular airlines, 28 were found to contain high levels of tricresyl phosphate (TCP), an organophosphate contained in modern jet oil as an anti-wear additive, which can lead to drowsiness, respiratory problems and neurological illnesses.
Dr Mackenzie Ross, a clinical neuropsychologist at University College London, has claimed that contaminated cabin air may affect up to 200,000 passengers each year. A Telegraph Travel investigation last year disclosed that hundreds of incidents of contaminated air had been reported by British pilots.
Reports linking exposure to contaminated air with long-term harm to health have led to an increase in the number of passengers and crew seeking redress. Earlier this year a former American Airlines attendant, Terry Williams, 40, launched a lawsuit against Boeing over illnesses she claims were caused by toxic fumes.
A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority said that investigations were continuing, but that there was no evidence of a link between cabin air and ill health.
I'd like to see the design of the new compressors.
AFAIK a defective compressor can contaminate air.
In the current system the air DOES NOT pass through the engine. It is bled off the compressor several stages before the combustion chamber. Contamination may take place typically if the forward compressor bearing is leaking lubricating oil.
Will the new system have separate compressors with no forward bearing? Could be done - in fact it was done in the days of radial compressors.
AFAIK a defective compressor can contaminate air.
In the current system the air DOES NOT pass through the engine. It is bled off the compressor several stages before the combustion chamber. Contamination may take place typically if the forward compressor bearing is leaking lubricating oil.
Will the new system have separate compressors with no forward bearing? Could be done - in fact it was done in the days of radial compressors.
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CAA - Wrong and they know it...
A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority said that investigations were continuing, but that there was no evidence of a link between cabin air and ill health.
It is plain wrong that the CAA still claim breathing toxic oil fumes for hours on end in the confines of a passenger jet does not lead to ill health.
People might be poisoned - but they are not stupid.
As Mandy Rice Davies of Profumo fame, once innocently said:
"They would say that - wouldn't they?"
DB
there was no evidence of a link between cabin air and ill health.
It is plain wrong that the CAA still claim breathing toxic oil fumes for hours on end in the confines of a passenger jet does not lead to ill health.
DB, I don't have an axe to grind, honest! If there is a widespread problem then I want to see it fixed. I have children and grandchildren who travel by air.
Bit like AGW, I'm not entirely convinced.
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Basil,
Most people accept that breathing toxic smoke fumes can kill in under a minute. Do you?
And surveying around 900 cabin crew produced the following result - why would people make it up?
Illness among cabin crew heightens toxic air fears - Telegraph
We know that you have to personally experience it to believe it. But if you read most of the information at Aerotoxic Assiociation - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome you might begin to understand the various factors and exercise the precautionary principle - for the kids sake?
All we are interested in are the facts - people can work it out for themselves.
DB
Most people accept that breathing toxic smoke fumes can kill in under a minute. Do you?
And surveying around 900 cabin crew produced the following result - why would people make it up?
Illness among cabin crew heightens toxic air fears - Telegraph
We know that you have to personally experience it to believe it. But if you read most of the information at Aerotoxic Assiociation - Support for sufferers of Aerotoxic Syndrome you might begin to understand the various factors and exercise the precautionary principle - for the kids sake?
All we are interested in are the facts - people can work it out for themselves.
DB
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EASA Contaminated air survey deadline - Friday 8th January 2010
Fellow aviators,
Here is your last chance to make your feelings known to EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) about contaminated cabin air.
Whatever your views good or bad, soon it will be the last opportunity to let them know how you feel about this serious health and flight safety issue.
New pilots may want some simple technical changes, if they expect a long, healthy career....
Whilst those who claim to have never been affected - can make their views felt too.
European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) Cabin Air Quality survey
Everybody is invited to complete the simple survey or send a more detailed e mail with your views - in confidence.
Remember,
If you tell them nothing, EASA will assume it's all OK....
DB
Here is your last chance to make your feelings known to EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) about contaminated cabin air.
Whatever your views good or bad, soon it will be the last opportunity to let them know how you feel about this serious health and flight safety issue.
New pilots may want some simple technical changes, if they expect a long, healthy career....
Whilst those who claim to have never been affected - can make their views felt too.
European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) Cabin Air Quality survey
Everybody is invited to complete the simple survey or send a more detailed e mail with your views - in confidence.
Remember,
If you tell them nothing, EASA will assume it's all OK....
DB
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Dutch TV reports on fumes in the cockpit
The best kept secret in aviation according to Zembla TV!
http://zembla.vara.nl/Afleveringen.1973.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=21913&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1972&cHash=cb708d89f8
Intersting report, but how to explain:
Aircraft accidents and other causes of death among... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 2002] - PubMed result
"Due to aircraft accidents young pilots have a higher mortality rate than the general population; other harmful effects on the mortality of pilots in their workplace were not found. At all ages pilots have a better life expectancy than the general population."
http://zembla.vara.nl/Afleveringen.1973.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=21913&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1972&cHash=cb708d89f8
Intersting report, but how to explain:
Aircraft accidents and other causes of death among... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 2002] - PubMed result
"Due to aircraft accidents young pilots have a higher mortality rate than the general population; other harmful effects on the mortality of pilots in their workplace were not found. At all ages pilots have a better life expectancy than the general population."
Last edited by hydroplane; 21st Feb 2010 at 21:07.
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Dutch TV reports on fumes in the cockpit online
For those ho want to view the documentary on line (part in English) go:
Afleveringen: ZEMBLA
Afleveringen: ZEMBLA
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'Lethal toxic air report' attacked as a whitewash
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Cranfield 2 1/2 years - not long enough....
No Cranfield report - despite waiting 2 1/2 years to "urgently identify the visible chemicals in a fume event" on the ground in a BAe 146.
Flight International are onto it though....."Clearing the fog".
It should make MOL splutter on his cornflakes.
http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/do...ng_the_fog.pdf
DB
Flight International are onto it though....."Clearing the fog".
It should make MOL splutter on his cornflakes.
http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/do...ng_the_fog.pdf
DB
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So the report, which has not been published, is called a cop out. Thanks for the link to the FI article which indeed gives a good deal of background.It does not help though when interested parties just make knee jerk reactions and also the article could not be said to be unbiassed. There is a truth somewhere in all this but entrenched views on both sides don't help getting to the bottom of it.
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Converted - slowly.
Tocamak,
David Learmount, who wrote the Flight International article, was completely unsympathetic around 3 years ago - then he took some time to consider the evidence and now is sure that repeatedly breathing toxic fumes in a confined space makes some people seriously ill.
The only way to get to the bottom of it is a bit of honesty - what are the visible oil fumes made up of - why won't they tell us?
The next thing is they will be telling us: "They are good for us...."
DB
David Learmount, who wrote the Flight International article, was completely unsympathetic around 3 years ago - then he took some time to consider the evidence and now is sure that repeatedly breathing toxic fumes in a confined space makes some people seriously ill.
The only way to get to the bottom of it is a bit of honesty - what are the visible oil fumes made up of - why won't they tell us?
The next thing is they will be telling us: "They are good for us...."
DB
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German TV - Aerotoxic Syndrome
DasErste - Plusminus: ENGLISH Version: Aerotoxic Syndrome Broadcast Tuesday 16th March 2010.
Do not watch this if you are upset at seeing "humans being treated like animals".
DB
Do not watch this if you are upset at seeing "humans being treated like animals".
DB
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The bias or otherwise of the Flight International report actually was not my real point but rather the dismissal, in the sunday paper, of a report by Cranfield which is not likely to be published for some weeks yet. Capt Michaelis says the report is a "cop out" but has she been given a draft version to comment on or is this just an anticipation that it will not match what is wanted? I am not saying that there is not a problem but again just trying to highlight that it does no good pre-empting something which has not been seen. There are plenty of people I know who have an interest in getting to the truth and this does not help.
Last edited by tocamak; 19th Mar 2010 at 08:03.