Cat 2 in operation but Cat 3 actually flown
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I II or III ?
So folks let's try this ,
Cat III in progress ,we are Cat I , we fly until the minima of category one approach , see the runway , land .
Wrong ??
Nick 1
Cat III in progress ,we are Cat I , we fly until the minima of category one approach , see the runway , land .
Wrong ??
Nick 1
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Nick 1
Depends on the RVR. If you are legal to start the approach and remain legal until the approach ban point, then you're ok. But you said Cat III in progress, so probably not due to the approach ban.
FE Hoppy
If the tech requirements are met and the weather is at Cat II minima, I'd look pretty foolish doing a go-around because of a temporary deterioration as I got to minima, when I could have done the Cat III. As an aside, my company require us to autoland from a Cat II approach unless there is a tech problem that prevents it. So, if the aircraft tells me it's Cat III capable, and the ILS/Airport meet the requirements, I'll be in the bar shortly after.......
Depends on the RVR. If you are legal to start the approach and remain legal until the approach ban point, then you're ok. But you said Cat III in progress, so probably not due to the approach ban.
FE Hoppy
If the tech requirements are met and the weather is at Cat II minima, I'd look pretty foolish doing a go-around because of a temporary deterioration as I got to minima, when I could have done the Cat III. As an aside, my company require us to autoland from a Cat II approach unless there is a tech problem that prevents it. So, if the aircraft tells me it's Cat III capable, and the ILS/Airport meet the requirements, I'll be in the bar shortly after.......
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Greetings,
I think that the issue is to decide to go to CAT III minima when CAT II was in force, without knowing Why ATC declared it CAT II
ILS Categorie and Auto Land capability are 2 different things, if the signal is stable you can do auto land on a CAT I,
I think that the issue is to decide to go to CAT III minima when CAT II was in force, without knowing Why ATC declared it CAT II
ILS Categorie and Auto Land capability are 2 different things, if the signal is stable you can do auto land on a CAT I,
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If the tech requirements are met and the weather is at Cat II minima, I'd look pretty foolish doing a go-around because of a temporary deterioration as I got to minima, when I could have done the Cat III. As an aside, my company require us to autoland from a Cat II approach unless there is a tech problem that prevents it. So, if the aircraft tells me it's Cat III capable, and the ILS/Airport meet the requirements, I'll be in the bar shortly after.......
You might be at the bar first but at least the NAA guy will know where to find you when he sees you made the approach below cat II minima when cat II was all that was declared by the airfield.
It's like saying my ac is certified cat II autoland but I flew cat III minima. You simply can't do it legally.
Doesn't this seem wise? Cat 3a was authorized.
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In my mind if you want to go to CAT3 minima, the aircraft, crew and runway all have to be suitably qualified. If the airfield are only giving CATII then that is the minima you use.
What I still find confusing is what are the actual physical differences between making a runway status CATIII or CAT II. An airfield that I regularly visit and I know is capable of CATIII operations would only give CATII. No NOTAMS to indicate unserviceablity - but what is required to get that runway back to CATIII status?
It was an interesting evening. Large European airfield. Weather was some cloud below 200', vis 1400m reducing and no temp / dew point split. To use the full capability of the aircraft We asked for a CATIII autoland. They came back with the offer of CATII which they then subsequently withdrew. We've briefed for an autoland so we re-jig the minima to CATI. Imagine our surprise to hear the Lufty ahead go around due not visual. We saw the runway only 20' above the minima. Haven't been that close on a minima for ages.
T'Bug
What I still find confusing is what are the actual physical differences between making a runway status CATIII or CAT II. An airfield that I regularly visit and I know is capable of CATIII operations would only give CATII. No NOTAMS to indicate unserviceablity - but what is required to get that runway back to CATIII status?
It was an interesting evening. Large European airfield. Weather was some cloud below 200', vis 1400m reducing and no temp / dew point split. To use the full capability of the aircraft We asked for a CATIII autoland. They came back with the offer of CATII which they then subsequently withdrew. We've briefed for an autoland so we re-jig the minima to CATI. Imagine our surprise to hear the Lufty ahead go around due not visual. We saw the runway only 20' above the minima. Haven't been that close on a minima for ages.
T'Bug
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I'm surprised at how many are qualified for LWMO (I'm assuming) but yet say they would fly to Cat3 minima when only cleared for a Cat2 approach!!! If you do not have a Cat3 clearance but only a Cat2, you can only go down to Cat2, period. Scary to read some of the posts...
As a note, at some airports (particularly Europe), ATC will only offer Cat2 as the aircraft spacing required is less than for Cat3, even though the runway could be use for Cat3 ops. This also means that, although the ILS is protected, there's a possibility that it will be affected by the preceeding aircraft. Cat2 ops means Cat2 minimum.
As a note, at some airports (particularly Europe), ATC will only offer Cat2 as the aircraft spacing required is less than for Cat3, even though the runway could be use for Cat3 ops. This also means that, although the ILS is protected, there's a possibility that it will be affected by the preceeding aircraft. Cat2 ops means Cat2 minimum.
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The diff between CAT II and CAT III - is not just signal reliability and monitoring, it is also airport and runway lights, power supply and emergency generators. A very significant part of it is the time to switchover from normal to emergency/standby power. There is a possibility that the airport power supply cannot at a particular time meet the requirements of CAT III - hence a reversion to CAT II. Really who knows....
You would be a brave person to operate to CATIII when CATII is in force.
Legally where do you stand? (Not a leg to stand on I suspect)
Gambling with your passengers lives..........even if it is an educated gamble.
You would be a brave person to operate to CATIII when CATII is in force.
Legally where do you stand? (Not a leg to stand on I suspect)
Gambling with your passengers lives..........even if it is an educated gamble.
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its not rocket science
Our company ops require that on any PA other than CAT1 we carry out an autoland, the procedure is exactly the same for CAT2 or Cat3 the only change is the minima, normally 50ft & 200m for a CAT3 and a 100ft & 300m for a CAT2 the aircraft config is the same, the calls are the same apart from a 100 above being at 150ft or 200ft respectively.
If the airfield is CAT 2 then CAT 2 limit apply, the Captain can increase the minima required, but under no circumstance (other than an emegency) may he decrease it, so next time your Captain says he will use CAT3 minima into a CAT2 airefield then unless you are visual at a 100ft above i would call go around, if he continues and lands off it, i would contact your operations and ask that they suspend you and file an MOR (not ASR) if your comapny does not support you in this, your in the wrong company.
If your company supports you, then you will be one step nearer to a command and there may well be a position for you!!
Other wise you might be in the weeds or worse and both out of a job
Stay safe
If the airfield is CAT 2 then CAT 2 limit apply, the Captain can increase the minima required, but under no circumstance (other than an emegency) may he decrease it, so next time your Captain says he will use CAT3 minima into a CAT2 airefield then unless you are visual at a 100ft above i would call go around, if he continues and lands off it, i would contact your operations and ask that they suspend you and file an MOR (not ASR) if your comapny does not support you in this, your in the wrong company.
If your company supports you, then you will be one step nearer to a command and there may well be a position for you!!
Other wise you might be in the weeds or worse and both out of a job
Stay safe
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WhiteKnight..
..so have you landed or overshooted the approach ?
I'm surprised to see aviator trying to clarify here things that 'd be very clear in mind .
If you was not sure regarding the continuation of the approach why didn't put the ship in holding and let the Skipper try to clarify the situation ?
Also you are in the plane .
Nick 1
I'm surprised to see aviator trying to clarify here things that 'd be very clear in mind .
If you was not sure regarding the continuation of the approach why didn't put the ship in holding and let the Skipper try to clarify the situation ?
Also you are in the plane .
Nick 1
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The ATIS comment of "Cat 2 approaches in progress" doesn't mean the better equipped pilots can't do an autoland, nor prohibit approaches to Cat 3 minimums. That comment doesn't prohibit any approach, but only meant to alert the pilots to LVPs.
However, if in doubt, ask on the appropriate frequency.
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IGH,
The airport cannot comment on the technical qualification of the aircraft. It can only declare it's current qualification. The use of Auto-coupled is none of the airports business. What about aircraft qualified for HGS 111A they must not use the Autopilot but are qualified to operate to Cat III minima.
In the end the crew must ensure the 3 pre requisites of Airfield, Aircraft and Crew are all qualified to the appropriate capability and if so commence/continue the approach if the weather allows.
The airport cannot comment on the technical qualification of the aircraft. It can only declare it's current qualification. The use of Auto-coupled is none of the airports business. What about aircraft qualified for HGS 111A they must not use the Autopilot but are qualified to operate to Cat III minima.
In the end the crew must ensure the 3 pre requisites of Airfield, Aircraft and Crew are all qualified to the appropriate capability and if so commence/continue the approach if the weather allows.
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Apology as I miss read your post a little.
The PDX notam you quote is not associated with low vis. This is applicable to a Cat 1 ils downgrading to less than cat 1 do to unservicability. Probably some new construction screwing up the beam.
The ORD is a declaration that the runway qualification is downgraded.
That's fine. It means that if low vis is in force it will only be declared cat 2 at best.
A declaration of cat 2 does not however mean that if your equipment and crew are qualified cat 3 you can fly cat 3 minima without the runway being declared cat 3 ops.
One cannot simply assume the state of the ground facilities.
The PDX notam you quote is not associated with low vis. This is applicable to a Cat 1 ils downgrading to less than cat 1 do to unservicability. Probably some new construction screwing up the beam.
The ORD is a declaration that the runway qualification is downgraded.
That's fine. It means that if low vis is in force it will only be declared cat 2 at best.
A declaration of cat 2 does not however mean that if your equipment and crew are qualified cat 3 you can fly cat 3 minima without the runway being declared cat 3 ops.
One cannot simply assume the state of the ground facilities.
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JAR-OPS 1.455 Low visibility operations –
Operating Procedures
(See Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS
1.455)
(a) An operator must establish procedures and
instructions to be used for Low Visibility Take-Off
and Category II and III operations. These procedures
must be included in the Operations Manual and
contain the duties of flight crew members during
taxying, take-off, approach, flare, landing, roll-out
and missed approach as appropriate.
(b) The commander shall satisfy himself that:
(1) The status of the visual and nonvisual
facilities is sufficient prior to commencing
a Low Visibility Take-Off or a Category II or III
approach;
(2) Appropriate LVPs are in force
according to information received from Air
Traffic Services, before commencing a Low
Visibility Take-off or a Category II or III
approach; and(3) The flight crew members are properly
qualified prior to commencing a Low Visibility
Take-off in an RVR of less than 150 m (Category
A, B and C aeroplanes) or 200 m (Cat D
aeroplanes) or a Category II or III approach.
Operating Procedures
(See Appendix 1 to JAR-OPS
1.455)
(a) An operator must establish procedures and
instructions to be used for Low Visibility Take-Off
and Category II and III operations. These procedures
must be included in the Operations Manual and
contain the duties of flight crew members during
taxying, take-off, approach, flare, landing, roll-out
and missed approach as appropriate.
(b) The commander shall satisfy himself that:
(1) The status of the visual and nonvisual
facilities is sufficient prior to commencing
a Low Visibility Take-Off or a Category II or III
approach;
(2) Appropriate LVPs are in force
according to information received from Air
Traffic Services, before commencing a Low
Visibility Take-off or a Category II or III
approach; and(3) The flight crew members are properly
qualified prior to commencing a Low Visibility
Take-off in an RVR of less than 150 m (Category
A, B and C aeroplanes) or 200 m (Cat D
aeroplanes) or a Category II or III approach.
