Airbus crash/training flight
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo
I thought that the discussion in this thread was about the DFDR and not the CVR
Originally Posted by J.O.
Due to extensive damage to the boxes, the only way to gain access to the data on the recorders in this case was to download it from the individual memory chips
BEA wrote on December 03 :
"The protected cases have resisted and the memory boards appear intact"
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Originally Posted by CONF iture
BEA wrote on December 03 :
"The protected cases have resisted and the memory boards appear intact"
"The protected cases have resisted and the memory boards appear intact"
J.O.,
In post #403 I was talking about the memory chips from non-FDR type avionic boxes, such as, e.g., FADECs or flight control computers. The manufacturers of such boxes would not have any need for reading individual chips.
In post #406 I was talking about the Honeywell boards, and of course Honeywell has the expertise to read them, since they manufactured them.
CJ
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Originally Posted by testpanel
Could the following be of interest? :
FR Doc E8-29182
FR Doc E8-29182
Airbus has advised that an incorrect part number has been
introduced in the IPC (illustrated parts catalog) for the rear
engine mount barrel nut. This problem affects Airbus A319, A320 and
A321 models with IAE (International Aero Engine) V2500-A5 engines.
The part number introduced in error is not certificated for the
IAE V2500-A5 engine installation and, if installed, may fail in
service.
Failure of the rear engine mount barrel nut could result in reduced
structural integrity of the rear engine mount and possible separation
of the engine from the airplane, and a consequent hazard to the
airplane and persons and property on the ground.
introduced in the IPC (illustrated parts catalog) for the rear
engine mount barrel nut. This problem affects Airbus A319, A320 and
A321 models with IAE (International Aero Engine) V2500-A5 engines.
The part number introduced in error is not certificated for the
IAE V2500-A5 engine installation and, if installed, may fail in
service.
Failure of the rear engine mount barrel nut could result in reduced
structural integrity of the rear engine mount and possible separation
of the engine from the airplane, and a consequent hazard to the
airplane and persons and property on the ground.
October 17
Airbus has issued All Operator Telex A320-71A1045
October 20
The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), which is the Technical Agent for the Member States of the European Community, has issued EASA Emergency Airworthiness Directive
November 26 (the day before Perpignan)
FAA AD issued
December 26
This AD becomes effective
An unsafe condition exists that requires the immediate adoption of
this AD.
These incorrect barrel nuts cannot withstand the engine loads
and must be replaced as soon as possible.
this AD.
These incorrect barrel nuts cannot withstand the engine loads
and must be replaced as soon as possible.
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Interesting.
Can someone say how much time is normally allowed to incorporate an EASA Emergency Airworthiness Directive?
Can someone say how much time is normally allowed to incorporate an EASA Emergency Airworthiness Directive?
Last edited by Dysag; 11th Jan 2009 at 19:27.
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It would be a remarkable coincidence....
Would the engine mounts have been taken off for a paint job?
Also, would the engine have stayed on the aircraft? The witnesses, of which there were several, and some fairly close, did not report anything falling off.
With the current lack of information, all we can do is add it to the (meager) list of hypotheses.
CJ
Would the engine mounts have been taken off for a paint job?
Also, would the engine have stayed on the aircraft? The witnesses, of which there were several, and some fairly close, did not report anything falling off.
With the current lack of information, all we can do is add it to the (meager) list of hypotheses.
CJ
Why stop at just one AD?
At any given time every fleet type has multiple Ad's (emergency or not) that are waiting to be complied, These are all part of the match of postulations for and against that the investigation considers.
To be worthy of a discussion point as postulation you would at least have some factual Pros to connect a series of dots pointing at such an AD as worthy of being considered.
So did a passing ship report seeing an engine come off and fall into the water?
Is one engine widely separated from the aircraft?
Just having a weak bolt is insignificant to the engine to pylon to wing load path unless a massive engine failure occurred leading to a significant challenge to this load.
I haven't seen one shred of evidence supporting this uniquely suggested AD and expect that somebody is just shopping unsupported speculation
At any given time every fleet type has multiple Ad's (emergency or not) that are waiting to be complied, These are all part of the match of postulations for and against that the investigation considers.
To be worthy of a discussion point as postulation you would at least have some factual Pros to connect a series of dots pointing at such an AD as worthy of being considered.
So did a passing ship report seeing an engine come off and fall into the water?
Is one engine widely separated from the aircraft?
Just having a weak bolt is insignificant to the engine to pylon to wing load path unless a massive engine failure occurred leading to a significant challenge to this load.
I haven't seen one shred of evidence supporting this uniquely suggested AD and expect that somebody is just shopping unsupported speculation
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You are probably right lomapaseo, but mentioning such AD, in this case is, I think, absolutely relevant.
I have no specific knowledge in this AD world, but how many of them warn of a possible "consequent hazard to the airplane and persons and property on the ground" ?
The little we know on Perpignan is there was some unusual attitude, therefore a possible loss of control.
Also, partial engine separation may be more problematic than a full ...
Anyway, let's wait and see what the BEA will have on the menu ?
But main point remains :
Airbus / BEA have been waiting for one month before getting the easy recoverable data ... sorry, but I don't buy that one.
I have no specific knowledge in this AD world, but how many of them warn of a possible "consequent hazard to the airplane and persons and property on the ground" ?
The little we know on Perpignan is there was some unusual attitude, therefore a possible loss of control.
Also, partial engine separation may be more problematic than a full ...
Anyway, let's wait and see what the BEA will have on the menu ?
But main point remains :
Airbus / BEA have been waiting for one month before getting the easy recoverable data ... sorry, but I don't buy that one.
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Separation or just partial detachment?
Confiture cited:
.
Partial Detachment due to failure of the rear bolt (as against total eng separation) would possibly cause the engine thrust line to point skywards...... and cause the observed pitch-up (perhaps).
Failure of the rear engine mount barrel nut could result in reduced structural integrity of the rear engine mount and possible separation of the engine ......
Partial Detachment due to failure of the rear bolt (as against total eng separation) would possibly cause the engine thrust line to point skywards...... and cause the observed pitch-up (perhaps).
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Airbus / BEA have been waiting for one month before getting the easy recoverable data
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ChristiaanJ wrote: Would the engine mounts have been taken off for a paint job?
I can't speak for the Airbus that was involved in this incident, but I drive past this facility quite often and the majority of aircraft being refurbished are parked next to the road with their engines removed: whether this includes the mount I can't say.
I can't speak for the Airbus that was involved in this incident, but I drive past this facility quite often and the majority of aircraft being refurbished are parked next to the road with their engines removed: whether this includes the mount I can't say.
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Yes, there are some old 727's there. Some from airlines with interesting names. BlairAir ? But that's more a subject for JetBlast.
I'm using driving by on the way to the airport so just have a quick glance over to see what's in the park.
I'm using driving by on the way to the airport so just have a quick glance over to see what's in the park.
Pegase Driver
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The EAS parking lot is full of old airframes, some are there since more than 10 years. The engines were removed because they were valuable at some point, the rest is just canibalism for spares .
The 72's were at one point owned by them , as they ran an airline in the 80's.
Do not draw any conclusions regarding engines being removed (or not) for normal Checks or paint jobs done by them. 2 different things.
The 72's were at one point owned by them , as they ran an airline in the 80's.
Do not draw any conclusions regarding engines being removed (or not) for normal Checks or paint jobs done by them. 2 different things.
Some progress expected today: "investigators expected to hear the last words of the pilots" which should mean that the CVR recording is available:
Air NZ crash victims to be identified tonight - bodies to return to NZ - National - NZ Herald News
Air NZ crash victims to be identified tonight - bodies to return to NZ - National - NZ Herald News
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With reference to the engine barrel nut AD.
EASA required the inspection/rectification to be carried out within 7 days of the effective date of the AD. IE 28th October, quite some time before the crash.
EASA required the inspection/rectification to be carried out within 7 days of the effective date of the AD. IE 28th October, quite some time before the crash.
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Quite so Dysag.
Six Air NZ crash victims identified, data analysis ongoing - NZ Herald
Some excerpts...
And...
Six Air NZ crash victims identified, data analysis ongoing - NZ Herald
Some excerpts...
"Work on analysing the data from the recorders is under way," an official at the Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses pour la Securite de l'Aviation Civile said yesterday.
"But it can't be done in two days, that's impossible. We need time."
Crash investigators have been holding a series of working sessions at the BEA's headquarters at Le Bourget on the northern outskirts of Paris. New Zealand accident investigators are being represented by experts from Britain's Aviation Accident Investigation Bureau.
"But it can't be done in two days, that's impossible. We need time."
Crash investigators have been holding a series of working sessions at the BEA's headquarters at Le Bourget on the northern outskirts of Paris. New Zealand accident investigators are being represented by experts from Britain's Aviation Accident Investigation Bureau.
"The findings will become part of a preliminary report, expected by the end of this month.
In parallel with the investigation, France has started a judicial inquiry for manslaughter."
In parallel with the investigation, France has started a judicial inquiry for manslaughter."
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Released to the media here in New Zealand this morning (NZ time) were the identity of the New Zealanders whose bodies have been recovered and now formally identitifed by the French judicial system. 4 of the 5 NZ's are named thus one can assume that the bodies of the two German Pilots from XL Germany have also been recovered.
The person whose body has not yet been recovered, is that of an Air New Zealand Engineer based in Auckland.
From the New Zealand Herald (morning newspaper) Website
"The investigation into the Air New Zealand Airbus crash has moved into a higher gear, as experts analyse the aircraft's flight recorders and officials complete identification of six of the seven dead.
French forensic experts in Montpellier last night formally confirmed the names of the New Zealanders whose remains have been recovered.
They are Captain Brian Horrell, 52, from Auckland; Christchurch engineers Michael Gyles, 49, and Noel Marsh, 35; and Civil Aviation Authority airworthiness inspector Jeremy Cook, 58, of Wellington.
The body of Air New Zealand Auckland engineer Murray White, 37, has not yet been recovered.
Formal identification enables death certificates to be issued, and the bodies to be released. The bodies are expected to be handed back to the families within the next day or two with a short service to be held on the beach near where the crash happened. The bodies will then be brought back to New Zealand for burial.
Executives from Air New Zealand, accompanied by some relatives of the dead, are going to France for the handover of the remains.
Air New Zealand chief executive Rob Fyfe and general manager airline operations Captain David Morgan are due to arrive in Perpignan Friday and a ceremony is expected to take place on the beach at nearby Canet-en-Roussillon on Saturday.
Mr Fyfe said said it had been a long wait for family, friends and colleagues to have official confirmation of those who have been recovered."
"Whilst we know how important it is, and how much the families value getting their partners, sons and dads back, our hearts are heavy for the family of Murray White, who remains missing. We continue to be hopeful the ongoing search will deliver Murray back to us soon," he said.
Data analysis
"Work on analysing the data from the recorders is under way," an official at the Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses pour la Securite de l'Aviation Civile said yesterday."But it can't be done in two days, that's impossible. We need time."
Crash investigators have been holding a series of working sessions at the BEA's headquarters at Le Bourget on the northern outskirts of Paris. New Zealand accident investigators are being represented by experts from Britain's Aviation Accident Investigation Bureau. The two "black boxes" recovered from the wreckage of the doomed Airbus 320 contain voice recordings from the flight deck and the aircraft's parameters, including its trajectory, altitude and speed.
They may explain why the plane - little more than three years old - plunged into the Mediterranean off southwest France last November 27 during a routine handover check.
The impact was so great that the two recorders were badly damaged. But the United States maker, Honeywell, was able to extract the information.
What has complicated progress is that the crash occurred at sea. Wreckage is scattered over a swathe of muddy seabed and a seventh victim has yet to be found. As the painstaking analysis began, other members of the accident inquiry are looking at the plane's maintenance records and fuel, and local air traffic at the time of the crash.
The findings will become part of a preliminary report, expected by the end of this month.
In parallel with the investigation, France has started a judicial inquiry for manslaughter.
The person whose body has not yet been recovered, is that of an Air New Zealand Engineer based in Auckland.
From the New Zealand Herald (morning newspaper) Website
"The investigation into the Air New Zealand Airbus crash has moved into a higher gear, as experts analyse the aircraft's flight recorders and officials complete identification of six of the seven dead.
French forensic experts in Montpellier last night formally confirmed the names of the New Zealanders whose remains have been recovered.
They are Captain Brian Horrell, 52, from Auckland; Christchurch engineers Michael Gyles, 49, and Noel Marsh, 35; and Civil Aviation Authority airworthiness inspector Jeremy Cook, 58, of Wellington.
The body of Air New Zealand Auckland engineer Murray White, 37, has not yet been recovered.
Formal identification enables death certificates to be issued, and the bodies to be released. The bodies are expected to be handed back to the families within the next day or two with a short service to be held on the beach near where the crash happened. The bodies will then be brought back to New Zealand for burial.
Executives from Air New Zealand, accompanied by some relatives of the dead, are going to France for the handover of the remains.
Air New Zealand chief executive Rob Fyfe and general manager airline operations Captain David Morgan are due to arrive in Perpignan Friday and a ceremony is expected to take place on the beach at nearby Canet-en-Roussillon on Saturday.
Mr Fyfe said said it had been a long wait for family, friends and colleagues to have official confirmation of those who have been recovered."
"Whilst we know how important it is, and how much the families value getting their partners, sons and dads back, our hearts are heavy for the family of Murray White, who remains missing. We continue to be hopeful the ongoing search will deliver Murray back to us soon," he said.
Data analysis
"Work on analysing the data from the recorders is under way," an official at the Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses pour la Securite de l'Aviation Civile said yesterday."But it can't be done in two days, that's impossible. We need time."
Crash investigators have been holding a series of working sessions at the BEA's headquarters at Le Bourget on the northern outskirts of Paris. New Zealand accident investigators are being represented by experts from Britain's Aviation Accident Investigation Bureau. The two "black boxes" recovered from the wreckage of the doomed Airbus 320 contain voice recordings from the flight deck and the aircraft's parameters, including its trajectory, altitude and speed.
They may explain why the plane - little more than three years old - plunged into the Mediterranean off southwest France last November 27 during a routine handover check.
The impact was so great that the two recorders were badly damaged. But the United States maker, Honeywell, was able to extract the information.
What has complicated progress is that the crash occurred at sea. Wreckage is scattered over a swathe of muddy seabed and a seventh victim has yet to be found. As the painstaking analysis began, other members of the accident inquiry are looking at the plane's maintenance records and fuel, and local air traffic at the time of the crash.
The findings will become part of a preliminary report, expected by the end of this month.
In parallel with the investigation, France has started a judicial inquiry for manslaughter.
Last edited by ghw78; 14th Jan 2009 at 22:55. Reason: Updated with news release
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It may not be a training flight then from the above report looks more like a test flight. Is there any details of exactly what was fixed or what they were checking for on the flight?
NW
If you bother to read thru the posts on this thread you might be able to answer your own question.
CVR/FDR
It's been two days now since the investigating authorities have had their first look at the data Honeywell extracted. There's been no comment even to say whether or not the data was any good. I would have thought there would have been some sort of comment by now or are the French typically French? First the delays they caused in allowing the boxes to go to Honeywell now this. I have heard murmurings on this side of the world about a French cover up.
If you bother to read thru the posts on this thread you might be able to answer your own question.
CVR/FDR
It's been two days now since the investigating authorities have had their first look at the data Honeywell extracted. There's been no comment even to say whether or not the data was any good. I would have thought there would have been some sort of comment by now or are the French typically French? First the delays they caused in allowing the boxes to go to Honeywell now this. I have heard murmurings on this side of the world about a French cover up.