Airbus crash/training flight
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27/09
If you bother to read thru the posts on this thread you might be able to answer your own....
The French themselves said the boxes went to Honeywell because only they could extract the data. Or you didn't bother to read thru the posts on this thread....
The French themselves said the boxes went to Honeywell because only they could extract the data. Or you didn't bother to read thru the posts on this thread....
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Originally Posted by 27/09
CVR/FDR
It's been two days now since the investigating authorities have had their first look at the data Honeywell extracted. There's been no comment even to say whether or not the data was any good. I would have thought there would have been some sort of comment by now or are the French typically French? First the delays they caused in allowing the boxes to go to Honeywell now this. I have heard murmurings on this side of the world about a French cover up.
It's been two days now since the investigating authorities have had their first look at the data Honeywell extracted. There's been no comment even to say whether or not the data was any good. I would have thought there would have been some sort of comment by now or are the French typically French? First the delays they caused in allowing the boxes to go to Honeywell now this. I have heard murmurings on this side of the world about a French cover up.
Does nobody here know and understand anything about FDRs, CVRs and crash data analysis?
"It's been two days now.... " is so far the dumbest remark I've seen.
It takes time to decode the raw data, and confirm they make any sense.
It's only then you start analysing the data, to try and reconstitute what "may" have happened. And try to correlate CVR and FDR and witness reports and wreckage. And if you're in luck, in the end you may even be able to reconstitute with a reasonable degree of confidence what "actually" happened.
Until then, a bit more decency, and a bit less in the way of conspiracy theories would be welcome.
CJ
Dysag
From what I have read on here and elsewhere the processes followed by the French actually delayed the sending of the CVR/FDR to Honeywell.
ChristiaanJ
I think it quite reasonable to have some indication as to the usefulness of the recovered data within a couple of days. My post did not ask about the actual information contained in the data just was the data in good condition?
I'm sorry if I've upset you with my comments about the French, but some people in this part of the world have a healthy disrespect for French authorities. Then we have some "official" reports with conflicting information (e.g. FDR in good condition, then unable to read FDR) coupled with what appear to be unnecessary delays in sending the CVR and FDR for analysis it is no wonder that suspicions start to arise.
From what I have read on here and elsewhere the processes followed by the French actually delayed the sending of the CVR/FDR to Honeywell.
ChristiaanJ
I think it quite reasonable to have some indication as to the usefulness of the recovered data within a couple of days. My post did not ask about the actual information contained in the data just was the data in good condition?
I'm sorry if I've upset you with my comments about the French, but some people in this part of the world have a healthy disrespect for French authorities. Then we have some "official" reports with conflicting information (e.g. FDR in good condition, then unable to read FDR) coupled with what appear to be unnecessary delays in sending the CVR and FDR for analysis it is no wonder that suspicions start to arise.
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Final moments of Air NZ crash revealed
3 News > National > Story > Final moments of Air NZ crash revealed
The last words from the crew of the Air New Zealand Airbus crash have revealed their final moments of life.
Experts began listening to the cockpit voice recorder on Monday and today the head of the investigation in Perpignan, Jean-Pierre Dreno, revealed the details of what they heard.
During the last seconds of recording the pilots said they were having a lot of difficulty controlling the plane, followed by screaming.
The second black box that records the flight data has shown that as the A320 was landing at Perpignan there was a surge in engine power.
This caused the plane to climb sharply towards the sky. Dreno says the sudden incline would have been too steep for it to recover.
“First it go up, and then it fall on its side. It falled and then it entered the sea with many force.”
Investigators say they still need to analyse more data before they can determine the cause.
Next week they will collect more debris from the crash site – Air New Zealand wants all 300 pieces of the plane recovered.
‘I don’t want any part of this aircraft left on the sea bed for souvenir hunters or divers to take away,” says Air New Zealand CEO Rob Fyfe.
He says it is out of respect to the men who died and that they and their families have been through enough.
Tomorrow representatives of the four men whose bodies were recovered will leave with them on a flight back home.
Air New Zealand has arranged for all of their friends, family and colleagues to meet them on the tarmac at Auckland airport Tuesday when they return.
3 News
The last words from the crew of the Air New Zealand Airbus crash have revealed their final moments of life.
Experts began listening to the cockpit voice recorder on Monday and today the head of the investigation in Perpignan, Jean-Pierre Dreno, revealed the details of what they heard.
During the last seconds of recording the pilots said they were having a lot of difficulty controlling the plane, followed by screaming.
The second black box that records the flight data has shown that as the A320 was landing at Perpignan there was a surge in engine power.
This caused the plane to climb sharply towards the sky. Dreno says the sudden incline would have been too steep for it to recover.
“First it go up, and then it fall on its side. It falled and then it entered the sea with many force.”
Investigators say they still need to analyse more data before they can determine the cause.
Next week they will collect more debris from the crash site – Air New Zealand wants all 300 pieces of the plane recovered.
‘I don’t want any part of this aircraft left on the sea bed for souvenir hunters or divers to take away,” says Air New Zealand CEO Rob Fyfe.
He says it is out of respect to the men who died and that they and their families have been through enough.
Tomorrow representatives of the four men whose bodies were recovered will leave with them on a flight back home.
Air New Zealand has arranged for all of their friends, family and colleagues to meet them on the tarmac at Auckland airport Tuesday when they return.
3 News
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With modern electronically controlled engines would normally be some electrical hiccup? 
Nonetheless, under normal circumstances the aircraft would remain controllable even if both (or indeed one ) engine ran uncommanded to full power. So two probs here, 1- Why did they get (or select themselves) the sudden increase in power on base leg during a DME arc approach. . . and somewhat more worryingly, 2 - why were they subsequently unable to control the aircraft.
Nonetheless, under normal circumstances the aircraft would remain controllable even if both (or indeed one ) engine ran uncommanded to full power. So two probs here, 1- Why did they get (or select themselves) the sudden increase in power on base leg during a DME arc approach. . . and somewhat more worryingly, 2 - why were they subsequently unable to control the aircraft.
Another article here says there is some sort of contradiction between data from the two boxes which does not make sense yet to the investigators:
Doomed Air NZ flight's final moments revealed - National - NZ Herald News
Doomed Air NZ flight's final moments revealed - National - NZ Herald News
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The report suggests some sort of pitch up followed by a stall and departure from controlled flight, which begs the questions: what caused increase in engine power; why did the FBW system not prevent a departure from controlled flight?
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What is the most common cause of engine surge other than advancing the throttles?
Anyone who knows a modern Airbus will be able to associate a rapid pitch up (apprantely into a stall?) with a subsequent "surge of power"... but I will not speculate
NoD
why did the FBW system not prevent a departure from controlled flight?
Carnage Matey
In some cases the computer can readily fly the aircraft while in other cases it requires the pilot to take control.
Examples have been shown in the two A300 accidents at Nagoya and Taipei.
Large inceases in thrust at low landing speeds typically cause pitch ups. So the investigation is probably going to be looking at the computer law in effect at the time vs pilot recognition and response.
The report suggests some sort of pitch up followed by a stall and departure from controlled flight, which begs the questions: what caused increase in engine power; why did the FBW system not prevent a departure from controlled flight?
In some cases the computer can readily fly the aircraft while in other cases it requires the pilot to take control.
Examples have been shown in the two A300 accidents at Nagoya and Taipei.
Large inceases in thrust at low landing speeds typically cause pitch ups. So the investigation is probably going to be looking at the computer law in effect at the time vs pilot recognition and response.
From the news item:
We have to be careful in interpreting comments in the press, particularly when there is a language translation AND a "translation" of aviation terminology by the reporter. I'm not a Bus driver, but it is my understanding that if a Bus is pulled up, engine thrust will automatically increase to attempt to prevent a stall.
Did it pitch up causing the engines to accelerate or did the engine acceleration cause a pitch up?
Comments from Bus drivers?
Mr Dreno said it appeared the plane had suffered a power surge during the landing approach which caused it to climb sharply. The plane then stalled, tipped on its side and plunged into the sea.
Did it pitch up causing the engines to accelerate or did the engine acceleration cause a pitch up?
Comments from Bus drivers?
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Thrust/ pitch compensation
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the Bus automatically corrects for the pitching moment caused buy thrust increase/ decrease with pitch trim? (unlike the 737)
If so then why did it not prevent the reported pitch up.
Obviously there maybe more to it to induce the reported 'uncontroleability'
Appreciate input from Bus drivers
Rgds
CL747
(unlike the 737)If so then why did it not prevent the reported pitch up.
Obviously there maybe more to it to induce the reported 'uncontroleability'
Appreciate input from Bus drivers
Rgds
CL747
It automatically compensates for speed and power changes in normal and alternate law, it doesn't in direct law, manual pitch trim wheel has to be used.
We still don't know in which law the aeroplane was when control was lost.
From news report it seems that there was pitchup, stall and loss of control. Everything else is open to interpretation.
There's mountain of data recovered from FDR and it waits for thorough analysis.
Patience is advised.
We still don't know in which law the aeroplane was when control was lost.
From news report it seems that there was pitchup, stall and loss of control. Everything else is open to interpretation.
There's mountain of data recovered from FDR and it waits for thorough analysis.
Patience is advised.
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Clandestino, thanks. As you quite rightly say we have to wait for the 'powers that be' to give the final outcome of the investigation. In the meantime those with 'superior' knowledge will continue to speculate and come to their own conclusion and will continue to post such BS on this forum. Patience is a virtue and we will only find out the true facts once all the data has been put together.
Until then I tend to ignore all the 'experts' theories of what happened in the final moments of that fateful flight.
RIP to the 'crew'
Rgds
CL747
Until then I tend to ignore all the 'experts' theories of what happened in the final moments of that fateful flight.
RIP to the 'crew'
Rgds
CL747
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Examples have been shown in the two A300 accidents at Nagoya and Taipei.
Large inceases in thrust at low landing speeds typically cause pitch ups. So the investigation is probably going to be looking at the computer law in effect at the time vs pilot recognition and response.
Large inceases in thrust at low landing speeds typically cause pitch ups. So the investigation is probably going to be looking at the computer law in effect at the time vs pilot recognition and response.
Pitch Moment?
CL747:
Would the pitching moment caused by a thrust increase be so great that it could not ordinarily be counter-acted by a pilot on the side stick?
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the Bus automatically corrects for the pitching moment caused buy thrust increase/ decrease with pitch trim?
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Forget it. There is no similarity between the A300/A310 and A320 flight control systems.