Airbus crash/training flight
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Where are the flight recorders?
Investigators Stymied for Clues in November Air New Zealand Jetliner Crash - WSJ.com
Karl, this article from 24th December's Wall St Journal says:
"At this point, Honeywell experts don't expect to receive the recorders until the first week in January.
A Honeywell spokeswoman said the company hasn't received the recorders and referred calls to investigators."
Karl, this article from 24th December's Wall St Journal says:
"At this point, Honeywell experts don't expect to receive the recorders until the first week in January.
A Honeywell spokeswoman said the company hasn't received the recorders and referred calls to investigators."
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Ah, Amex. "yes, ze French legal syteme, she is what she is and you 'ere on your shildish website - poof! you make no difference je pense."
I agree that the French system is intractable. But I strongly disagree with those somewhat patronising, dismissive comments about Pprune. I think PPrune can - and sometimes does - make a difference and there are many examples over the years. Pprune was instrumental in getting bums off seats in the BRS runway resufacing fiasco, and thats just one fairly recent one that comes to mind. Having said that, BRS was - from a pilots viewpoint - a critical situation with a real possibility of a catastrophe. Aircraft were visibly struggling and minor rwy excursions were happening on almost a daily basis. There was a good chance that something serious would happen if no action was taken.
I'm not convinced - apart from the needs of those immediately involved and bereaved - that the same urgency exists here. But suppose it does. I'm not an expert on ICAO Annex 13. What does it say about 'expediency'? Or, as the country of incident and country of manufacture are the same, doesnt it matter?
Rob
I agree that the French system is intractable. But I strongly disagree with those somewhat patronising, dismissive comments about Pprune. I think PPrune can - and sometimes does - make a difference and there are many examples over the years. Pprune was instrumental in getting bums off seats in the BRS runway resufacing fiasco, and thats just one fairly recent one that comes to mind. Having said that, BRS was - from a pilots viewpoint - a critical situation with a real possibility of a catastrophe. Aircraft were visibly struggling and minor rwy excursions were happening on almost a daily basis. There was a good chance that something serious would happen if no action was taken.
I'm not convinced - apart from the needs of those immediately involved and bereaved - that the same urgency exists here. But suppose it does. I'm not an expert on ICAO Annex 13. What does it say about 'expediency'? Or, as the country of incident and country of manufacture are the same, doesnt it matter?
Rob
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Ask AMEX or one of the other apologists for the French bureaucracy/judiciary they seem to find it normal/justifiable.
Given the number of Airbus FBW family A/C in service I find that an unjustifiable stance.
Can you imagine the outrage if it had gone in on the approach to Orly in an urban area with a full load. You have the impression (rightly or wrongly) that they are trying to keep this low key. Just pure chance that only 7 unfortunates dead in this instance, whatever has caused this really needs investigating sooner rather than later.
Given the number of Airbus FBW family A/C in service I find that an unjustifiable stance.
Can you imagine the outrage if it had gone in on the approach to Orly in an urban area with a full load. You have the impression (rightly or wrongly) that they are trying to keep this low key. Just pure chance that only 7 unfortunates dead in this instance, whatever has caused this really needs investigating sooner rather than later.
Guest
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As for me making an apology of the French system or whatever and if you knew better, you would know how incorrect you are CapPlaystation. (Not that it matters I agree)... So you are wrong, just saying that you guys are getting excited with all sorts of theories over something you know pretty much nothing... That is an accident which took place where and when none of you were at the time. Nor are you connected with any investigation team, whether it is legal or judiciary.
My comments are based on the fact that it is a website which used to be addressed at Professionals (and pilots with that), with, one would hope, a professional attitude.
Anyway, keep on playing (Cluedo).
My comments are based on the fact that it is a website which used to be addressed at Professionals (and pilots with that), with, one would hope, a professional attitude.
Anyway, keep on playing (Cluedo).
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I don't think there is anything unprofessional in peoples disbelief that following an( on the face of it ) inexplicable accident, heels appear to be getting dragged with respect to getting the recorders to somewhere that someone can glean some info from them. Unlikely I know/hope ,but imagine another one had a related problem in the interim.
While Rome burns Nero fiddles.
As I said, there are lots of these things in the air, incidentally the 777 rollback problem deserves the same sense of urgency, again, some answers are really needed.
While Rome burns Nero fiddles.
As I said, there are lots of these things in the air, incidentally the 777 rollback problem deserves the same sense of urgency, again, some answers are really needed.
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AMEX: Your Charges Have Been Declined
Between conspiracy theories and ill informed comments (because people who actually know, are working at the AAIB, BEA, NTSB, etc... and not here), so called professionals whose speculations based on their minute knowledge on how things work only manage to show a sad image of our profession and ethics.
...you are wrong, just saying that you guys are getting excited with all sorts of theories over something you know pretty much nothing...
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-snip- Why no information released ? Because unlike PPRuNe anything said has to be factually correct. Reports normally go to all interested parties for comment before release. -snip-
Step on their toes when the due dates have passed and there is suspicion of fraud, and keep thin lipped until then.
Rattler
Karl, Amex and Rattler,
Many of us think that the above situation is unacceptable.
It is unacceptable.
Just because there are systems in place that you are familiar with and have seen in action, does not mean that the system is the best one possible.
Don't just toe the line....ask if it makes sense.
CVR found 29th nov 2008
DFDR found 30th nov 2008
Expexted to be delivered to Honeywell first week 2009.
DFDR found 30th nov 2008
Expexted to be delivered to Honeywell first week 2009.
It is unacceptable.
Just because there are systems in place that you are familiar with and have seen in action, does not mean that the system is the best one possible.
Don't just toe the line....ask if it makes sense.
Why no information released ? Because unlike PPRuNe anything said has to be factually correct
The companies/organisations involved in this put out press releases on a regular basis, they know how to relay info to the public.
How about ........ "Information has been downloaded from the FDR and CVR of the Airbus A320 that crashed in the Med in late November. At present specialists from Honeywell are analysing the information and expect to be able to release details of the FDR in early March 2009" or something to that effect......Oh hang on, they can't do that because apparently some French red tape nonsense is preventing the vital data from being downloaded and at the same time risking hundreds of lives. Excellent. What a great system, we should all sit back and be grateful that this whole thing is in capable hands.
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Sorry all.
This thread is now rapidly deteriorating, and I'm going to bed.
But for those who read French, hve a look at crash-aerien.com.
Among what is mostly a rehash of what we've seen here, there are a few interesting snippets about the BEA having the full facilities to deal with an FDR or CVR, even if 'rather' smashed up (i.e., having to get to the chips), but also having a legal obligation to get a full copy of the contents, before the recorders are released to the manufacturer for a definitive readout.
Would explain some of the goings-on, no?
The BEA would be legally obliged to at least get a copy of the raw digital record, before releasing the recorders to Honeywell. As those few here familiar with FDR technology will know, that's a slow and laborious job.
And only once the raw copy has been made, one can start decoding.
So give it a break, people.....
I agree with captplaystation that there should be something about the Delta 777 inflight rollback by now, since FDR, CVR and QAR were all avaialbale and undamaged, not picked off the seabed after a 3000g water impact.
But in this case, it'll take time.
CJ
CJ
This thread is now rapidly deteriorating, and I'm going to bed.
But for those who read French, hve a look at crash-aerien.com.
Among what is mostly a rehash of what we've seen here, there are a few interesting snippets about the BEA having the full facilities to deal with an FDR or CVR, even if 'rather' smashed up (i.e., having to get to the chips), but also having a legal obligation to get a full copy of the contents, before the recorders are released to the manufacturer for a definitive readout.
Would explain some of the goings-on, no?
The BEA would be legally obliged to at least get a copy of the raw digital record, before releasing the recorders to Honeywell. As those few here familiar with FDR technology will know, that's a slow and laborious job.
And only once the raw copy has been made, one can start decoding.
So give it a break, people.....
I agree with captplaystation that there should be something about the Delta 777 inflight rollback by now, since FDR, CVR and QAR were all avaialbale and undamaged, not picked off the seabed after a 3000g water impact.
But in this case, it'll take time.
CJ
CJ
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BEA press release
Bienvenue sur le site du Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses
"search at sea not being completed and in the absence up to now of data from data recorders BEA has decided to postpone untill first weeks of 2009 the issue of a preliminary report of the accident."
"search at sea not being completed and in the absence up to now of data from data recorders BEA has decided to postpone untill first weeks of 2009 the issue of a preliminary report of the accident."
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Looking good for undetected/unrecognized flap asymmetry upon extension for the approach?
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How does the A320's systems cope with that (or for that matter, with asymm spoiler extension - upon spoilers being armed?)
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How does the A320's systems cope with that (or for that matter, with asymm spoiler extension - upon spoilers being armed?)
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Nonsense - the 320 flaps run out on mechanical screw jacks, connected to flap tracks runners connected to the wing PS with actuators that drive all gears through a common drive shaft
the only way to get asy' flap extension is to remove the flap track stops or disable a drive shaft: either option will trigger an ECAM warning, and have specific handling characteristics
secondly, it doesn't explain the rapid (as reported) pitch oscillation
Moderated:
Keep it pleasant please.
Duck
the only way to get asy' flap extension is to remove the flap track stops or disable a drive shaft: either option will trigger an ECAM warning, and have specific handling characteristics
secondly, it doesn't explain the rapid (as reported) pitch oscillation
Moderated:
Keep it pleasant please.
Duck
Nonsense .........
Anything is possible, and if 'computers' are involved - Gawd help us.
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The most dangerous aircraft to fly is one that has just come out of maintenance.
Last edited by hetfield; 31st Dec 2008 at 07:30.
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The most dangerous aircraft to fly is one that has just come out of maintenance.
IFixPlanes, don't take it personally... you could have top level maintenance engineers of all sorts fixing the plane and all have 100% sure that they'd performed their tasks in the most professional manner, but the only way to find out if all systems sing in tune with each other is when someone uses it for the purpose it was built right after your finest work.
GD&L
Hetfield
The most dangerous thing that came out of the LH incident you refer to was the fact that the LH crew completely failed to check their flight controls before take-off!!
The most dangerous thing that came out of the LH incident you refer to was the fact that the LH crew completely failed to check their flight controls before take-off!!