Airbus crash/training flight
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It does always seem to go to the Boeing vs Airbus thing but there have been several losses or near losses of 737's with rudder hard over problems and they were not fly by wire issues but hydro-mechanical (I'm sure someone will be able to correct this assumption for me 
) and no amount of manual reversion would have saved them as the solution was in fact not to pull but push in order to get better response from the ailerons ( I think that makes sense but see above proviso..... )
Any system can and will be subject to murphy's law and having done more than 5000 hours on the bus I am pretty satisfied that it will look after me.
) and no amount of manual reversion would have saved them as the solution was in fact not to pull but push in order to get better response from the ailerons ( I think that makes sense but see above proviso..... )Any system can and will be subject to murphy's law and having done more than 5000 hours on the bus I am pretty satisfied that it will look after me.
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And what about the B-2 crash
In the fever of A vs. B argument you seem to forget, that the most expensive and sophisticated AC in the world was downed by a sensor error as well...
A rather expensive experience at 2 billion dollar price tag.
No system is 100% immune against human error and simple, stupid negligence...
A rather expensive experience at 2 billion dollar price tag.
No system is 100% immune against human error and simple, stupid negligence...
About 13 years ago an A320 became very difficult to control on a go-around at Hong Kong. Something to do with the Flaps locked in the full position but the flap lever in posn 3. If I am right this situation can not occur these days as the control laws in effect take their que from actual flap position NOT lever position. Now what could paint/tape do to the flap position sensor ?
As I've said before the results of the investigation will be very interesting to read. As for Boeing/Airbus they are both a/c so if you set an sensible attitude and set a sensible thrust setting you will get a sensible flight profile. But in normal law will the Airbus allow you to set a sensible attitude & thrust, if the flight control computers are getting erroneous data. I know you can in the Boeing (75/76) but as am just back on the Airbus am not convinced you could. But then again I may be totaly wrong.
As I've said before the results of the investigation will be very interesting to read. As for Boeing/Airbus they are both a/c so if you set an sensible attitude and set a sensible thrust setting you will get a sensible flight profile. But in normal law will the Airbus allow you to set a sensible attitude & thrust, if the flight control computers are getting erroneous data. I know you can in the Boeing (75/76) but as am just back on the Airbus am not convinced you could. But then again I may be totaly wrong.
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Enough of the pathetic Boeing vs Airbus nonsense
Firstly, I am not one to speculate, hence rarely post on this forum. However I do find the continous "Manual vs Auto" "Boeing vs Airbus" argument somewhat tedious. No aircraft is perfect, they all require the crew to be trained thoroughly and to know the procedures to be carried out should failures occur.
Of course, as I fly the 'bus I do feel somewhat defensive, but not to the extent of thinking one fundamentally safer than the other (give me Normal Law anyday
)
An airbus can be flown manually either in Normal Law, or if things go wrong, Alternate and then Direct. They all offer some protections, Normal Law giving you the ability to pull back full stick and bank fully without fear of losing control. A fabulous attribute, surely.
Now on the subject of Unreliable Air Data, if that should happen to be a factor here, no aircraft can cope with it. It is up to the pilots to notice the problem and then carry out Memory Drills for datum pitch and power settings.
I did this just the other day in the sim as it happens as part of my recurrent check. Very odd and disturbing to see conflicting readouts on PFDs, but once you have noticed a discrepancy, you are halfway there to staying safe.
Whatever the cause of the crash, it is a great loss for the families and friends involved. Let's all wait for the official results.
Of course, as I fly the 'bus I do feel somewhat defensive, but not to the extent of thinking one fundamentally safer than the other (give me Normal Law anyday
)An airbus can be flown manually either in Normal Law, or if things go wrong, Alternate and then Direct. They all offer some protections, Normal Law giving you the ability to pull back full stick and bank fully without fear of losing control. A fabulous attribute, surely.
Now on the subject of Unreliable Air Data, if that should happen to be a factor here, no aircraft can cope with it. It is up to the pilots to notice the problem and then carry out Memory Drills for datum pitch and power settings.
I did this just the other day in the sim as it happens as part of my recurrent check. Very odd and disturbing to see conflicting readouts on PFDs, but once you have noticed a discrepancy, you are halfway there to staying safe.
Whatever the cause of the crash, it is a great loss for the families and friends involved. Let's all wait for the official results.
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Maybe we can concentrate the discussion to the following question:
Which airplane(s) will be out of control if pitot/static ports, AoA-vanes are blocked/jammed.
Concerning 727, A300 I know the answer. A320/340 and the qantas incident I don't recall.
Which airplane(s) will be out of control if pitot/static ports, AoA-vanes are blocked/jammed.
Concerning 727, A300 I know the answer. A320/340 and the qantas incident I don't recall.
Last edited by hetfield; 26th Jan 2009 at 19:42.
Angle of attack probes though could be a different story.
No-one except us god-like Qualified Flying Instructors was normally allowed to practise flapless or slatless approaches. One day, I was flying a practice flapless approach in an aged old VC10K when all of a sudden, at around 800 ft agl, the stall warning system suddenly operated the stick pusher....
Fortunately I was able to overcome the large nose down pitching moment, executed a go-around, landed off the next approach and threw the old wreck at the maintenance people. Or 'engineeers' as they liked to call themselves.
They found a couple of 'interesting' facts:
- It had been stuck in some god-forsaken desert $hithole supporting Bliar's wars for some weeks and the AoA probe bearing was gummed up with sand and crap, so that when it moved jerkily on the approach, it triggered a false 'phase advance' signal (spurious detection of a rapid increase of AoA).
- The 'lift rate modifier' box (which corrects the stall protection system trigger AoA values for configuration) had NEVER been connected since BWoS allegedly re-built the old heap a decade or so earlier - the wires were neatly tucked behind the associated black box, but had never actually been connected.
Post-maintenance test flights could often prove most interesting, which is why very few of us were cleared to conduct them. But as long as you remembered the basics and didn't rush into blind checklist reading, things were normally OK.
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........... and threw the old wreck at the maintenance people. Or 'engineers' as they liked to call themselves.
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It was rather obvious that this accident has something to do with the air data sensors. I mentioned it in the very beginning
Click here
But noone believed me...
It is very well possible that the air data error only occured in a special set of configuration and was not yet dangerous in the beginning of the flight. Only when they pulled the levers or pushed the buttons, something went wrong. Let's see what the specialists will find out!
Dani
Click here
But noone believed me...
It is very well possible that the air data error only occured in a special set of configuration and was not yet dangerous in the beginning of the flight. Only when they pulled the levers or pushed the buttons, something went wrong. Let's see what the specialists will find out!
Dani
The unconnected Lift Rate Modifier had gone undetected for many years - it was only when the stick pusher went off that the error was found.....
The real problem was the sticky AOA probe and the fact that aircraft were rarely flown to the limits they once were when airframes were rotated between training and operational use.
Various other horrors were found on other aircraft - mainly down to poor conversion by BWoS, not as a result of routine maintenance. For example, when refuelling from other aircraft, we used to dump the stall protection system to prevent spurious warnings or idents at AAR speeds caused by airflow disturbance. But one VC10K was found to have NEVER had a serviceable stall dump system; the pin in the linkage had never been fitted as corrosion in the locating hole proved only too clearly.
An old BOAC teaspoon was also found floating about in the electrical bay - it had been there throughout the aircraft's entire service with Gulf Air after they bought it from BOAC - and it had then been rebuilt by BWoS for the RAF....
But the A320 accident has yet to be explained. Back now to the thread, I hope!
The real problem was the sticky AOA probe and the fact that aircraft were rarely flown to the limits they once were when airframes were rotated between training and operational use.
Various other horrors were found on other aircraft - mainly down to poor conversion by BWoS, not as a result of routine maintenance. For example, when refuelling from other aircraft, we used to dump the stall protection system to prevent spurious warnings or idents at AAR speeds caused by airflow disturbance. But one VC10K was found to have NEVER had a serviceable stall dump system; the pin in the linkage had never been fitted as corrosion in the locating hole proved only too clearly.
An old BOAC teaspoon was also found floating about in the electrical bay - it had been there throughout the aircraft's entire service with Gulf Air after they bought it from BOAC - and it had then been rebuilt by BWoS for the RAF....
But the A320 accident has yet to be explained. Back now to the thread, I hope!
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Not just taped over ports and sensors but a/c washing as well...
It said during painting and maintenance it was important to protect all aerodynamic data sensors.
It has also said that tests such as low speed tests "must be performed at safe altitude and be preceded by a recall of basic rules as regards to minimum speeds and recovery actions".
It has also said that tests such as low speed tests "must be performed at safe altitude and be preceded by a recall of basic rules as regards to minimum speeds and recovery actions".
Of course it all depends upon how many static ports there are - and how they're plumbed in to air data.....
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Gentlemen, you are missing the point and the arguments.
This is not a slagging match A vs B!
Adhering to the thread this is about an accident of a Airbus.
Sensors and computers will always be prone to failures or mishandling. My criticism is that with the Airbus philosophy, a failure leading to erroneous electronic inputs or commands is not easy enough to counter. We know this aircraft pitched erroneously before crashing. We all assume that this was not done by deliberate pilot inputs.
Many assume that it has been done by electronic inputs, or at least caused by such. The reason has to be determined. We also know that Airbus technology does only allow a override of these electronic inputs in special circumstances (alt or dir law). To reach such a condition, there needs to be some switching. With ADIRU faults there is a procedure (CB pulling) which is not suited as a emergency procedure, no CB pulling/switching is designed for such operations, therfore it is not suited for events like Qantas experienced.
To reach dir law, with switching of PRIMs or SECs, there is no ECAM or other procedure determined as how to reach such status in an emergency, therfore again it is not suited for an emergency situation.
Any other aircraft will allow a pilot intervention, with some force and by switching off the AP/AT and such a procedure IS suited for a emergency situation, as it is a natural, trained and instant manoever.
Airbus might come up with some drill or memory items to counter erroneous, rapid inputs of electronic flight, and I would warmly welcome such procedures. But as long as there is only CB pulling or overhead switching, I will uphold my criticism of the Airbus system as it remains prone to catastrophies for such situation, as remote they may be and as much they might be induced by non Airbus systems/outside human error.
The pilots should always be armed with a direct, instant and easy intervention capability.
That is my criticism.
This is not a slagging match A vs B!
Adhering to the thread this is about an accident of a Airbus.
Sensors and computers will always be prone to failures or mishandling. My criticism is that with the Airbus philosophy, a failure leading to erroneous electronic inputs or commands is not easy enough to counter. We know this aircraft pitched erroneously before crashing. We all assume that this was not done by deliberate pilot inputs.
Many assume that it has been done by electronic inputs, or at least caused by such. The reason has to be determined. We also know that Airbus technology does only allow a override of these electronic inputs in special circumstances (alt or dir law). To reach such a condition, there needs to be some switching. With ADIRU faults there is a procedure (CB pulling) which is not suited as a emergency procedure, no CB pulling/switching is designed for such operations, therfore it is not suited for events like Qantas experienced.
To reach dir law, with switching of PRIMs or SECs, there is no ECAM or other procedure determined as how to reach such status in an emergency, therfore again it is not suited for an emergency situation.
Any other aircraft will allow a pilot intervention, with some force and by switching off the AP/AT and such a procedure IS suited for a emergency situation, as it is a natural, trained and instant manoever.
Airbus might come up with some drill or memory items to counter erroneous, rapid inputs of electronic flight, and I would warmly welcome such procedures. But as long as there is only CB pulling or overhead switching, I will uphold my criticism of the Airbus system as it remains prone to catastrophies for such situation, as remote they may be and as much they might be induced by non Airbus systems/outside human error.
The pilots should always be armed with a direct, instant and easy intervention capability.
That is my criticism.
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GMDS,
As a confirmed Boeing luddite I find that info disquieting but not entirely surprising.
I knew there had to be a good reason to sit in uncomfortable seats in a cramped noisy little space, now I know why.
As a confirmed Boeing luddite I find that info disquieting but not entirely surprising.
I knew there had to be a good reason to sit in uncomfortable seats in a cramped noisy little space, now I know why.
GMDS
Excellent post - my view exactly
I'm afraid that the ultimate answer by Airbus, although not worded in those exact terms, is "we know better, it is actually a feature of the aircraft not to let you take over"...
That's possibly as key point where they "philosophically" differ from Boeing.
Excellent post - my view exactly
The pilots should always be armed with a direct, instant and easy intervention capability.
That's possibly as key point where they "philosophically" differ from Boeing.
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Sorry the last few arguments are technically flawed.
Both Boeing and Airbus build inherently safe aircraft. But the type of technology used dictates the type of approach to be taken by the flight crew as problems will manifest themselves in different ways due to different technologies.
Safety statistics do not support any of your comments about a potentially flawed philosophy or the need for humans to be given more control over an "automated" process.
The direction this thread is taking actually highlights nothing more than a human reluctance to accept change and does not advance the discussion on the Excel tragedy.
Both Boeing and Airbus build inherently safe aircraft. But the type of technology used dictates the type of approach to be taken by the flight crew as problems will manifest themselves in different ways due to different technologies.
Safety statistics do not support any of your comments about a potentially flawed philosophy or the need for humans to be given more control over an "automated" process.
The direction this thread is taking actually highlights nothing more than a human reluctance to accept change and does not advance the discussion on the Excel tragedy.
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@dc-ate someone has already said it but it holds true. This thread is showing the holes in peoples knowledge and nothing else.
An Airbus can be flown manually and the whole argument has no place here in a discussion about a dreadful accident.
Once you are able to distinguish between fact and fiction come back and say something sensible. Otherwise your post reflects your own knowledge levels.
An Airbus can be flown manually and the whole argument has no place here in a discussion about a dreadful accident.
Once you are able to distinguish between fact and fiction come back and say something sensible. Otherwise your post reflects your own knowledge levels.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by SC
a human reluctance to accept change
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Thank you, I have returned.
Any time you take away ANY portion of control of a human-operated flying device, you increase the odds of an unsuccessful outcome in the event of an emergency.
Any time you take away ANY portion of control of a human-operated flying device, you increase the odds of an unsuccessful outcome in the event of an emergency.
I must have missed something.
I never suspected they was a question about whether it could be flown manually but the issue was that you do need recognition and reaction time and therfore a safe altitude.
I could be confused but wasn't this the issue?
I never suspected they was a question about whether it could be flown manually but the issue was that you do need recognition and reaction time and therfore a safe altitude.
I could be confused but wasn't this the issue?