Racetrack or another Procedure Turn
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Racetrack or another Procedure Turn
Hi guys,
I have several doubts about how to intercept the final inbound course using a racetrack and reversal procedures.
An example approach plate: NDB-A from KFPR (Fort Pierce in Florida).
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0806/05343NA.PDF
This chart have depicted a 45/180 reversal procedure and a holding pattern for the missapproach.
I hesitate what procedure should use an aircraft coming from ANGEE int (at East) direct to the IAF (the NDB).
Could the pilot, cleared for the approach, use a racetrack over the NDB to loose altitud to intercept the final inbound course, loosing altitude during the racetrack legs. For example, when the aircraf reach the NDB from ANGEE, could it make a left turn to heading 082 (direct entry on the racetrack) for the oubound racetrack leg while descend to 2000'? After this, make a left turn to intercept the final inbound course (262) and when achieve it, descent to minimums?
I guess this would be the best, economic and fast procedure to make the approach, but there's no racetrack depicted on the chart, only a reverse procedure that coming from ANGEE I find useless.
Another important question, If I can "invent" a racetrack over NDB for the reversal purpose, Could I use the time I require (for the racetrack legs) to loose the altitud smoothy?. In the inbound leg you must descend from 2000' to Minimums (640') so you should use 1:30 min legs or even 2 minutes legs on the racetrack. Could I use the racetrack I need (1, 2 o 3 minutes) for this descend (Always remaining whiting the 10 nm circle)?
Pans Ops doc 8168 claims the following:
3.2.3.2 Entry into a racetrack procedure:
following considerations:
.........
c) all manoeuvring shall be done in so far as possible on the manoeuvring side of the inbound track
published separately).
Does this note mean that I can do the racetrack as I explained above, ignoring the reversal procedure depicted on the chart? or am I misunderstanding the explanation?
Anothe case: This time the aircraft is coming from South. If it want to use a racetrack it should use a parallel entry. Could you,again, fly direct to NDB, turn right this time and make a long outbound racetrack leg on heading 082?, turning right after 2 minutes to intercept the inbound course of the racetrack? I understand from the above paragraph from doc 8168:
"c) all manoeuvring shall be done in so far as possible on the manoeuvring side of the inbound track"
That you can not descend while you are outbound heading after the parallel entry, but I'm not sure if it is the meaning of that sentence. If not, Why can not descend on the outbound racetrack leg after the parallel entry?
In conclusion, Can I use a racetrack in these situations? or should I use the depicted holding over the NDB to make a outbound turn (direct or parallel entry to heading 082) proceeding and intercepting the outbound bearing form the NDB and making the reversal procedure depicted on the chart?
A lot of questions, I know, but I hope someone may help me.
Thank you in advance
I have several doubts about how to intercept the final inbound course using a racetrack and reversal procedures.
An example approach plate: NDB-A from KFPR (Fort Pierce in Florida).
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0806/05343NA.PDF
This chart have depicted a 45/180 reversal procedure and a holding pattern for the missapproach.
I hesitate what procedure should use an aircraft coming from ANGEE int (at East) direct to the IAF (the NDB).
Could the pilot, cleared for the approach, use a racetrack over the NDB to loose altitud to intercept the final inbound course, loosing altitude during the racetrack legs. For example, when the aircraf reach the NDB from ANGEE, could it make a left turn to heading 082 (direct entry on the racetrack) for the oubound racetrack leg while descend to 2000'? After this, make a left turn to intercept the final inbound course (262) and when achieve it, descent to minimums?
I guess this would be the best, economic and fast procedure to make the approach, but there's no racetrack depicted on the chart, only a reverse procedure that coming from ANGEE I find useless.
Another important question, If I can "invent" a racetrack over NDB for the reversal purpose, Could I use the time I require (for the racetrack legs) to loose the altitud smoothy?. In the inbound leg you must descend from 2000' to Minimums (640') so you should use 1:30 min legs or even 2 minutes legs on the racetrack. Could I use the racetrack I need (1, 2 o 3 minutes) for this descend (Always remaining whiting the 10 nm circle)?
Pans Ops doc 8168 claims the following:
3.2.3.2 Entry into a racetrack procedure:
Normally a racetrack procedure is used when aircraft arrive overhead the fix from various directions. In these cases,
aircraft are expected to enter the procedure in a manner similar to that prescribed for a holding procedure entry with the
aircraft are expected to enter the procedure in a manner similar to that prescribed for a holding procedure entry with the
following considerations:
.........
c) all manoeuvring shall be done in so far as possible on the manoeuvring side of the inbound track
Note.— Racetrack procedures are used where sufficient distance is not available in a straight segment to
accommodate the required loss of altitude and when entry into a reversal procedure is not practical. They may also be
specified as alternatives to reversal procedures to increase operational flexibility (in this case, they are not necessarily
accommodate the required loss of altitude and when entry into a reversal procedure is not practical. They may also be
specified as alternatives to reversal procedures to increase operational flexibility (in this case, they are not necessarily
published separately).
Does this note mean that I can do the racetrack as I explained above, ignoring the reversal procedure depicted on the chart? or am I misunderstanding the explanation?
Anothe case: This time the aircraft is coming from South. If it want to use a racetrack it should use a parallel entry. Could you,again, fly direct to NDB, turn right this time and make a long outbound racetrack leg on heading 082?, turning right after 2 minutes to intercept the inbound course of the racetrack? I understand from the above paragraph from doc 8168:
"c) all manoeuvring shall be done in so far as possible on the manoeuvring side of the inbound track"
That you can not descend while you are outbound heading after the parallel entry, but I'm not sure if it is the meaning of that sentence. If not, Why can not descend on the outbound racetrack leg after the parallel entry?
In conclusion, Can I use a racetrack in these situations? or should I use the depicted holding over the NDB to make a outbound turn (direct or parallel entry to heading 082) proceeding and intercepting the outbound bearing form the NDB and making the reversal procedure depicted on the chart?
A lot of questions, I know, but I hope someone may help me.
Thank you in advance
Last edited by tinerrr; 26th Jun 2008 at 23:13. Reason: bad URL
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The US doesn't use PANS-OPS. It uses TERPS - their own set of standards & procedures so PANS-OPS doesn't apply. There are differences.
ANGEE is just a waypoint from one of the IFR routes. It, DIDDY and VRB are commonly used as IFR waypoints into KFPR by ATC (local knowledge and not really important other than giving common navigation point between the IFR charts & the approach plate).You'll normally be radar vectored to final or to whatever IAF you request.
So, the issue is having arrived at ANGEE.....what next? Most commonly vectors to final (or IAF if you want to waste time). However, if for some reason, you want or need to do a completely pilot interpreted arrival, what necessary info is available on the plate to get from ANGEE to the NDB? Each waypoint has BRG/DIST from the NDB so that lets one fix position at the waypoint although there's no necessity to arrive via the waypoint. You would track to the NDB quite conventionally from whereever you are. The MSA gives a minimum altitude within 25nm so you mustn't descend below that unless you're being vectored.
Option #1: Once over the NDB and still above the MSA use whatever manoeuvering you find convenient to arrive back over the the NDB to track outbound on the approach. It could be a standard sector entry but needn't be - you're above the MSA remember.
Option #2: Join the charted hold conventionally while remaining above the MSA then when on the outbound leg of the hold 'merge' with the approach's outbound leg.
Once established outbound commence descent to not below 2000'. Commence the procedure turn sufficiently in advance to *ensure* you remain with 10nm of the aid. It's up to you to determine how to do that but historically most people would work out a time based on their groundspeed - typically a couple of minutes. Now days use the GPS...
Both methods are accepted and much of a muchness in time & turns. I lean towards option #1 because I don't have to dick around with formal hold entries compared to #2, I like an accurate as possible start to the leg and I can commence the descent sooner, but in reality I prefer not to muck around and nearly always get vectors to as short a final as I can arrange.
ANGEE is just a waypoint from one of the IFR routes. It, DIDDY and VRB are commonly used as IFR waypoints into KFPR by ATC (local knowledge and not really important other than giving common navigation point between the IFR charts & the approach plate).You'll normally be radar vectored to final or to whatever IAF you request.
So, the issue is having arrived at ANGEE.....what next? Most commonly vectors to final (or IAF if you want to waste time). However, if for some reason, you want or need to do a completely pilot interpreted arrival, what necessary info is available on the plate to get from ANGEE to the NDB? Each waypoint has BRG/DIST from the NDB so that lets one fix position at the waypoint although there's no necessity to arrive via the waypoint. You would track to the NDB quite conventionally from whereever you are. The MSA gives a minimum altitude within 25nm so you mustn't descend below that unless you're being vectored.
Option #1: Once over the NDB and still above the MSA use whatever manoeuvering you find convenient to arrive back over the the NDB to track outbound on the approach. It could be a standard sector entry but needn't be - you're above the MSA remember.
Option #2: Join the charted hold conventionally while remaining above the MSA then when on the outbound leg of the hold 'merge' with the approach's outbound leg.
Once established outbound commence descent to not below 2000'. Commence the procedure turn sufficiently in advance to *ensure* you remain with 10nm of the aid. It's up to you to determine how to do that but historically most people would work out a time based on their groundspeed - typically a couple of minutes. Now days use the GPS...
Both methods are accepted and much of a muchness in time & turns. I lean towards option #1 because I don't have to dick around with formal hold entries compared to #2, I like an accurate as possible start to the leg and I can commence the descent sooner, but in reality I prefer not to muck around and nearly always get vectors to as short a final as I can arrange.
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This procedure is designed in a strange way if you ask me.
The depicted "holding" is in fact only part of the missed approach, as it is drawn in a dotted lign. A holding pattern would normally be drawn in a thin solid line and a racetrack in a thick solid line.
So for me this holding is no part of the initial procedure.
Furthermore that holding would be better positioned on the other side "north" because like this it never really alligns you with the approach.
What I would do when arriving to the NDB from ANGEE is to request maneuvering airspace to the west of the NDB at 2000 feet, slow down to holding speed and when passing the NDB proceed outbound on QDR 292 for 1 minute, then turn left towards the NDB, then proceed as published.
As the missed approach brings you in from there it should be clear of obstacles.
For comparison click here (http://www.ebzw.be/KFPR.pdf) to download this approach as a Jeppesen chart.
Greetings, Bart
The depicted "holding" is in fact only part of the missed approach, as it is drawn in a dotted lign. A holding pattern would normally be drawn in a thin solid line and a racetrack in a thick solid line.
So for me this holding is no part of the initial procedure.
Furthermore that holding would be better positioned on the other side "north" because like this it never really alligns you with the approach.
What I would do when arriving to the NDB from ANGEE is to request maneuvering airspace to the west of the NDB at 2000 feet, slow down to holding speed and when passing the NDB proceed outbound on QDR 292 for 1 minute, then turn left towards the NDB, then proceed as published.
As the missed approach brings you in from there it should be clear of obstacles.
For comparison click here (http://www.ebzw.be/KFPR.pdf) to download this approach as a Jeppesen chart.
Greetings, Bart
Last edited by bArt2; 27th Jun 2008 at 16:19.
In conclusion, Can I use a racetrack in these situations?
1. On U.S. Government charts, a barbed arrow indicates the direction or side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot. Some of the options are the 45 degree procedure turn, the racetrack pattern, the tear-drop procedure turn, or the 80 degree $ 260 degree course reversal. Some procedure turns are specified by procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted.
This contrasts with PANS-OPS which assumes (though I can't find an explicit reference) that the procedure designer will choose the reversal and the pilot will fly it as depicted.
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Definitely an interesting one
The Jep plate probbaly gives the best clue. I would suggest that there are two published procedures here to be used in the absence of radar. One from the west which utilises the standard procedure turn as depicted in bold and the alternative via the holding pattern. It would be more common to give some text on this alternative such as distance/time to extend the outbound leg of the hold but given that there is no specified turn point or time for the primary procedure, I would say its safe to utilise the alternative via the hold, descending to 2,000ft on the outbound leg, bearing in mind its safe at 2000ft all the way from Angee to the NDB (and this track cuts straight through the holding pattern)
So back to the question: routing Angee to FPR (NDB) and enter the hold via a direct entry not below 2,000 ft (as track info from Angee). To commence the approach, when established on the outbound leg descend to 2,000ft ensuring you turn and establish final inbound within 10 nm and then when within 5 deg of inbound course you can descend to MDA. Obviously one would have to turn not only to respect the 10nm restriction but also not turn too early to ensure a stabilised descent form 2,000ft on finals.
I also like tinstaafal's suggestions and in paricular, manoeuvre (with ATC permission) at msa to track to the NDB on a course which would allow you to intercept the primary procedure from the NBD
So back to the question: routing Angee to FPR (NDB) and enter the hold via a direct entry not below 2,000 ft (as track info from Angee). To commence the approach, when established on the outbound leg descend to 2,000ft ensuring you turn and establish final inbound within 10 nm and then when within 5 deg of inbound course you can descend to MDA. Obviously one would have to turn not only to respect the 10nm restriction but also not turn too early to ensure a stabilised descent form 2,000ft on finals.
I also like tinstaafal's suggestions and in paricular, manoeuvre (with ATC permission) at msa to track to the NDB on a course which would allow you to intercept the primary procedure from the NBD
Last edited by Starbear; 27th Jun 2008 at 10:19. Reason: correction of appalling errors thanks to Okta's observation
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Been reading this with interest.
One question arises in my mind though from your post Starbear.
I think you're not allowed to descend below 2000' until established inbound, or so it reads to me. Would you really descend to MDA while tracking outbound?
One question arises in my mind though from your post Starbear.
I think you're not allowed to descend below 2000' until established inbound, or so it reads to me. Would you really descend to MDA while tracking outbound?
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Oktas 8
Would you really descend to MDA while tracking outbound?
I was perhaps so intent on looking at the routing options I completely ignored the basic altitudes. I was going to edit or remove previous answer once you had read this but it is so glaringly wrong and awful that I had to do it now.
Thank you again for highlighting my error so quickly and I have to say diplomatically.
Last edited by Starbear; 27th Jun 2008 at 10:20.
The Jep plate probbaly gives the best clue.
Nevertheless, I agree with your description of flying the procedure, though technically it's a "racetrack reversal", not a "hold".
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Thank you very much for your responses and opinions.
I think it was a little mistake to mix the Pans ops regulations with a FAA chart, because both regulations are slightly differents. But, imagine that this chart was from an european airport. I'm pretty sure there are any similar approach in Europe. Would be different your opinions?
I specially interested in to know how do you interpret that note in the Pans Ops doc 8168:
3.2.3.2 Entry into a racetrack procedure:
.........
Note.— Racetrack procedures are used where sufficient distance is not available in a straight segment to
accommodate the required loss of altitude and when entry into a reversal procedure is not practical. They may also be
specified as alternatives to reversal procedures to increase operational flexibility (in this case, they are not necessarily published separately).
Could we in this case use a 2 min racetrack over the ndb to descend to 2000' (outbound leg), intercepting final course and descending to MDA or we must proceed outbound and make the reversarl procedure depicted in the chart?
I have read in a intrument flying technique book (FAA based) that explain that you could do that reversal racetrack over the NDB, but I'm not sure if Pans Ops regulations agree with that. Any suggestion?
I think it was a little mistake to mix the Pans ops regulations with a FAA chart, because both regulations are slightly differents. But, imagine that this chart was from an european airport. I'm pretty sure there are any similar approach in Europe. Would be different your opinions?
I specially interested in to know how do you interpret that note in the Pans Ops doc 8168:
3.2.3.2 Entry into a racetrack procedure:
.........
Note.— Racetrack procedures are used where sufficient distance is not available in a straight segment to
accommodate the required loss of altitude and when entry into a reversal procedure is not practical. They may also be
specified as alternatives to reversal procedures to increase operational flexibility (in this case, they are not necessarily published separately).
Could we in this case use a 2 min racetrack over the ndb to descend to 2000' (outbound leg), intercepting final course and descending to MDA or we must proceed outbound and make the reversarl procedure depicted in the chart?
I have read in a intrument flying technique book (FAA based) that explain that you could do that reversal racetrack over the NDB, but I'm not sure if Pans Ops regulations agree with that. Any suggestion?
I would interpret it to mean that the procedure designer may choose to employ a racetrack, not that the pilot may substitute a racetrack at his discretion.
Well the problem is that the barbed arrow is not employed in that way for European approaches. You fly what's drawn. Where alternative procedures are envisaged, they are drawn or at least included in notes. And invariably when arrivals from intesections like ANGEE are charted, a convenient procedure is provided. Can you find a counterexample?
Worth looking at PANS-OPS Vol I Figure I-4-3-4. Example of omnidirectional arrival using a holding procedure in association with a reversal procedure. It clearly states "Sector 2: [the 300 degrees that don't allow a turn of less than 30 degrees to the outbound] Arrivals from this sector must enter the holding prior to the reversal procedure".
But, imagine that this chart was from an european airport.
Worth looking at PANS-OPS Vol I Figure I-4-3-4. Example of omnidirectional arrival using a holding procedure in association with a reversal procedure. It clearly states "Sector 2: [the 300 degrees that don't allow a turn of less than 30 degrees to the outbound] Arrivals from this sector must enter the holding prior to the reversal procedure".
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It seems that the core of the question being asked is "can I do a racetrack procedure instead of the published reversal procedure?"
Whilst I am not an expert on PANS-Ops, I think this reference is helpful.
In general, under PANS-Ops it is not safe to do a procedure other than the one specifically promulgated. There are exceptions, such as doing an 80°/260° instead of a 45° procedure turn, but these are very much exceptions to the rule.
Whilst I am not an expert on PANS-Ops, I think this reference is helpful.
3.2.2 Reversal procedure (page 1-4-3-2)
3.2.2.1 The reversal procedure may be in the form of a procedure or base turn. Entry is restricted to a specific direction or sector. In these cases, a specific pattern - normally a base turn or procedure tum - is prescribed.
3.2.2.2 The directions and timing specified should be strictly followed in order to remain within the airspace provided. It should be noted that the airspace provided for these procedures does not permit a racetrack or holding manoeuvre to be conducted unless so specified.
3.2.2.1 The reversal procedure may be in the form of a procedure or base turn. Entry is restricted to a specific direction or sector. In these cases, a specific pattern - normally a base turn or procedure tum - is prescribed.
3.2.2.2 The directions and timing specified should be strictly followed in order to remain within the airspace provided. It should be noted that the airspace provided for these procedures does not permit a racetrack or holding manoeuvre to be conducted unless so specified.
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can I do a racetrack procedure instead of the published reversal procedure?
You can do whatever reverse course maneuver you like as long as you remain south of the charted approach course and at or above 2000' within 10 nm of FPR until reaching the final approach point. That's what the barbed arrow depicted on FAA charts means.
The procedure in question doesn't use PANS-OPS.
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I think my answer would be that for the procedure depicted on the Jepp chart you would have to go around the hold before crossing the beacon again and tracking outbound.
That does not help you much as the holding does not allign you with the initial part of the procedure
Oh yes! I missed extending outbound in the hold signified by the barb. I dislike the uncertainty about position w.r.t. the 10nm limit & also the surveyed obstacle clearance so it's rare that I would do it. Unless it's a requirement of course.
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The original question was indeed about TERPS not PANS-Ops. You're absolutely right MU3001A, PANS-Ops has different charting rules. Another question was specifically asked about interpreting a particular PANS-Ops paragraph. Bookworm & I have replied to that specific second question.
Moving on.
A similar approach in PANS-Ops countries could be specified if it had a 45° or 80°/260° procedure turn west of the NDB. This would be an alternative to a racetrack pattern, and an example exists here.
Cheers,
O8
Moving on.
A similar approach in PANS-Ops countries could be specified if it had a 45° or 80°/260° procedure turn west of the NDB. This would be an alternative to a racetrack pattern, and an example exists here.
Cheers,
O8