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LH A320 Rough Landing @ Hamburg

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LH A320 Rough Landing @ Hamburg

Old 2nd Mar 2008, 16:36
  #61 (permalink)  
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A4 thanks for your inputs (!) it makes for some very interesting reading and makes me wonder...
hats off to the guys for recovering from a very near disaster
Well, this only can be subjective... had they requested the more into wind runway and had they hold into wind wing down the whole thing might have been a non event

I have never hit the stops with the sidestic
That is an interesting one. I admit having less experience on the Bus than you have, but already hit the lateral stops a couple of times...
Now I must meditate about the reasons for me (and some other guys here) having hit said stops and you not.
Could it be we are conditioned by our previously flown aircraft? Are we too much in a hurry in trying to correct the attitude? Have you ever encountered a situation were quick recovery was due and calmly not used stick to stops? Or is the answer a combination of all these?

squeeze (not kick) the drift off
Fully agree on that one, specially on the -19

As for F3 in gusty winds is a good choice (as on most aircraft), a few pro arguments here are higher approach speed hence stability due to increased apparent wind, better response to control inputs, and less prone to lift a wing. Can't recall anything about a change of law in 3, but never done with learning

live 2 fly 2 live
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 17:28
  #62 (permalink)  
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judging from the pic they might have stressed the outer section of the wing.... they are very very very lucky they didnt write the aircraft off.
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 17:58
  #63 (permalink)  
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anyone know why EVERY post on this thread with a video link has now been removed?

cant understand on what basis LH would have been able to have the videos of this event pulled from youtube and all now all the links from PPRuNe.
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 18:02
  #64 (permalink)  

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They work fine still for me.
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 18:20
  #65 (permalink)  
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THIS link may survive!!

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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 18:24
  #66 (permalink)  
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The Liveleak link on the first page is still there and worked last time I tried it. I have to admit to grabbing a copy from there when the YouTube version got pulled.
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 18:28
  #67 (permalink)  
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anyone know why EVERY post on this thread with a video link has now been removed?
Hey...good question...even the Youtube Account of Xylon1986, the guy who posted other "No Guts-No Glory" videos of that day at HAM, has closed and disappeared along with all those clips...
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 18:29
  #68 (permalink)  

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context ad on Liveleak: stop fear of flying with hypnotherapy

That's pretty good software right there
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 20:55
  #69 (permalink)  
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2 questions

Question of the uninitiated (i.e PAX) if II may:
Why are planes still going into an airrport if it is known that a major storm is right in that area? Wou;dn't it be wiser to either not depart or divert?

How is the situation now, flying into Hamburg tonight with EK from NYC...?
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 21:01
  #70 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by grimmrad
How is the situation now, flying into Hamburg tonight with EK from NYC...?
I can only tell you about the situation now: It is still fairly windy, but definatly less than yesterday. The storm has passed and I think tomorrow things will be completely back to normal again. There shouldn't be any problems for your flight from New York as the flight arrives around noon, local time.

Blue skies - Jakob (I live in Hamburg ATM)
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 21:20
  #71 (permalink)  
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Captain praised as hero on germany's laeding tabloid


Dieser Pilot verhinderte Flugzeug-Katastrophe

Dieser Pilot ist ein Held!

"verhinderte" translates to "prevented"...
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 22:06
  #72 (permalink)  
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Story in german news website www.bild.de The Captain and a Lufthansa spokesman are briefly quoted.

Last edited by CorkEICK; 2nd Mar 2008 at 22:15. Reason: spelling
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 22:23
  #73 (permalink)  
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Now we know why Airbus have downward wingtips too, they are feelers!!!!!
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 22:23
  #74 (permalink)  
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Not sure, but could the video have been taken airside?
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 23:29
  #75 (permalink)  
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If the fly-by-wire system is able to keep the aircraft safe by remaining inside an operational envelope (not too fast, not too slow, limits on bank angle and angle of attack etc.) why can't the same be done with aircraft attitude when close to the ground.

There is an envelope outside of which either the tail will scrape, or the wingtips will scrape given the aircraft's attitude and height above the ground. Why can't these limits be protected via the flight control software/computers?
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 00:11
  #76 (permalink)  
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Mainly because computers can't decide if in fact you need a sudden bank angle demand, such as for an avoidance manoeuvre.
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 03:11
  #77 (permalink)  
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I would be interested to hear what formula various companies use to assess whether the crosswind component is with limits. The company I work for use the crosswind component for the mean wind plus half the TOTAL gust.

So if you are landing on RW 23 and the wind is 290/33 gust 49, the mean component is 30 kts (60 degrees off is 87%) plus 8 (ie 49 minus 33, divided by 2) which gives a figure of 38 kts. I think this system works well.

Some comments on crosswind landings. If you are going to make any mistakes apply more into wind aileron rather than less. Never have liked the term kick off the drift - I think of "straightening the a/c with rudder". The further effect of rudder is roll so whilst doing this you need to feed in opposite aileron. The important bit is getting the timing right! Also I believe a common error is to carry excess speed. Ok if its gusting 49 kts more speed is probably safer than less but if you have excess speed in the flare you are going to float before touchdown which makes judgement of when to straighten the a/c more challenging!

Mind you if in doubt ask for another runway or divert!
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 05:03
  #78 (permalink)  
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J.O. I'm simply talking about keeping the wing tips and tail a safe distance from the ground.

Say that safe distance is 3 feet. If the wing tip gets to say 2.5 feet, the Flight Control Computer (or whatever Airbus call it) makes it's own input to restore the wing tip back to 3 feet. It's no different to limiting the bank angles at higher altitudes only the values are reduced. Perhaps when this kind of input is being made by the computer the pilot can be informed with some kind of annunciation or sound.

Surely the safe operating envelope can be made to reduce as the RA passes from say 20 feet to touchdown. We're simply talking about a computer program aren't we?

O.K. What would happen if at circuit altitude, you try to maintain the bank angle right on the aircraft's limit with the control stick and then induce further roll through rudder or thrust asymmetry? Would the computer simply make an aileron input that brings the roll back to within it's limits?

I have never flown Airbus so these are sincere questions.
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 06:09
  #79 (permalink)  
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Picture of the damaged wing...
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 06:43
  #80 (permalink)  
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I have not flown the bus either, but it seems the last thing this aircraft needs is more computer control. From what I understand from talking to pilots that have flow it is that you have to forget much of what you know about flying and do it the Airbus way. They basically say if you can get your mind around what Airbus was trying to do the plane is ok, (many are not that kind) and you eventually get used to it.
If anything the pilot should have more control in this kind of situation, the last thing you want when trying to stop a wing from hitting the ground is a computer telling you "sorry that roll rate is too fast"
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