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LH A320 Rough Landing @ Hamburg

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LH A320 Rough Landing @ Hamburg

Old 1st Mar 2008, 21:37
  #21 (permalink)  
F4F
 
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CaptainProp, sure don't agree with you...
You land it like you land ANY conventional aircraft!
, yes Sir, as long as you get The steady crosswind

Flying in blustery weather the bus is a scary beast, either you let itself to sort it out (good luck!) or your try and give some correcting inputs. Then, depending on the concerted decision of at least 3 computers you might get some form of control from your sidestick inputs... or not

Thanks Airbus, you really gave us a fantastic machine


live 2 fly 2 live
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Old 1st Mar 2008, 21:48
  #22 (permalink)  
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readywhenreaching thanks for your facts.
landing 23 LOC-DME (ATIS gave no other option)
Well, it could be about time that we learn and make requests to ATC when needed. ATIS is, as the name suggests, an Information service. If you need another runway tell ATC in no uncertain terms, divert or declare an emergency.


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Old 1st Mar 2008, 22:40
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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The AB flies NPA's (not LOC NPA's) like an ILS, but to a higher minimum. Some pilots were doing RNAV (GPS) approaches onto RWY 33 (the best runway at the time with that wind). So it would have made little difference if it had been an ILS or GPS approach as the visibility was good, but yes, an ILS is always better if the wind agrees.
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Old 1st Mar 2008, 23:00
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Big question is did the pilots make a request only to have it denied?
If they didn't request 33 why not?
If the request was denied what to do then? For what reason was it denied?
Was it denied for the convenience of ATC?
If it was, what do we start doing about this? Just take what they give us? Demand what we need?
Be willing to divert/cancel, fellows. It's the only way we can uphold safety and get our point across.
OPERATIONAL NECESSITY!!! Nothing less will do! RF
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Old 1st Mar 2008, 23:10
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Cool

I was flying 4 legs today, with gusts up to 50kts, W/S and +RASH all together, it was not a nice day to work, I tell you. ATC were quite on the edge as well but allways very helpfull.

Luckily to have direct flight controls (BA46RJ) but quite demanding using full deflection on ailerons and rudder, bumpy ride .. keep

Our cabin crew reported scary pax , if you would tell the pax before what they can expect, they wouldn’t fly, i tell you!



Waiting for the next strom to move across

Wating for the next storm to move across
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Old 1st Mar 2008, 23:10
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Airbus haters, please take a look at the dynamics of it and tell me if this was a design flaw, or another attempt to be a test pilot. The aircraft did exactly what was asked of it. It tried to turn toward the direction of travel when the left main touched down. That caused a roll to the left which was exascerbated by the strong (i.e. outside design limits) crosswind. And there was no "decision" to go around. It was forced upon them once they were on the downwind side of the runway.

Last edited by J.O.; 2nd Mar 2008 at 00:52.
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Old 1st Mar 2008, 23:18
  #27 (permalink)  
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Imminent Boner

As a former busdriver and a current Boeing man I would take the Boeing any day in conditions like this. Who wants the bloody computer butting in when you´re riding the bull?!
I totally agree. As a former Boeing man the first on limits Xwind landing on a 320 at LHR scared me. The training I had on the sim was just that - training on the sim. I had full sidestick and the wing just kept on coming up. In the end I released some rudder (in panic. I might add, whilst trying to just fly the plane) and landed with a considerable amount of drift on.

Because of this experience I made some considerable noise in the office (British Airways) and was given the advice that I 'probably just wasn't applying the correct techniques'. In other words - just go away.

Fortunately I mentioned this experience of mine to a 320 'old hand' who advised that the rubbish taught in the sim is just that - the drift has to be taken off earlier in the 320 so as to give the 'bus' some small time to rethink.

I am certainly no expert, but I listened to that 'old hand' and his techniques seemed to work; or perhaps I never saw those particular wind conditions again.

Back on the Boeing when you move the ailerons the wing reacts as expected - always. If it didn't then TOGA is the answer. TOGA should have been the answer that day at LHR on the Bus I'm sure now - trouble is I believed the Airbus hype and BA training.

When I look at that video I have to say "there but for the grace etc, etc".



Regards
Exeng
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Old 1st Mar 2008, 23:24
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Not a a/c driver but I was handling a boat today and, although well experienced, bumped a neighbouring boat when de-berthing in a strong cross-wind. Absolute respect for you guys who have to fly your a/c full of passengers in really testing conditions. Thx.
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Old 1st Mar 2008, 23:42
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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The aircraft did exactly what was asked of it. It tried to turn toward the direction of travel when the left main touched down. That caused a roll to the left which was exascerbated by the strong (i.e. outside design limits) crosswind. And there was no "decision" to go around.
Listening to that and watching that vid a dozen times, does make me think that landing an AB in those conditions, seems to be a bit of a lottery... either you do kick-off drift and CAN get some sort of normal aileron law to keep the upwind wing down, or you don't and risk colossal side-strain on the landing gear or running too quickly towards the upwind edge of the runway.
The latter of those being exacerbated by the uncertainty of aircraft position after touchdown - in those conditions.

Obvious Qu. Why don't AB just offer a normal aileron law for heavy crosswind landings...

Obvious Ans. Because they don't want to suddenly allow a switch in aircraft characteristics, you would have to get used to the change pretty quickly, and its a rare situation that demands it, unless used routinely for approcah and landing.

However: IMHO, roll-rate law near the ground is 'non-ideal' in those conditions, esp. if you require to cross the controls at times like that - which I think he/she did, or should have.
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Old 1st Mar 2008, 23:59
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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On one of my first line trips in the 320 I hit the stops on the stick in strong gusty crosswind. Having flown large Boeings for most of my career this was an eye opener as the stops were never a player in some serious crosswinds challenges on the conventionally configured airplanes= stick/yoke displacement = aileron displacement. I did not find the AB roll rate algorithm intuitive to adapt to. On this flight, I announced "full left sidestick" to my F/O and we touched down in a manner resembling tossing a pillow case full of doorknobs onto the runway. After we exited he said that hitting the stops was common occurrence on the bus in strong crosswinds. I said I had just spent 6 weeks in training and at no point did anyone in the schoolhouse find it somewhat needful to convey that you might hit the stops.

The bus is a bit like tail wheel airplane. Great on a calm or wind down the runway day, but a handful in strong x-winds.
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 00:04
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Kick that much rudder,you are surely going to drop a wing.
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 00:22
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Mmm, yes, did seem to give it a fair old bootfull, but seems theres confusion above as to whether a moment too early or for an AB, too late...

I said I had just spent 6 weeks in training and at no point did anyone in the schoolhouse find it somewhat needful to convey that you might hit the stops.
Why do you think that is so common... never being told the bad news when it could help prepare for the unexpected. Mmm.... is this the KISS syndrome being used inappropriately, or 'learning on the job' taken to ridiculous lengths?
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 01:25
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Hitting the stops is a bad thing and a sure sign you are over controlling. It shouldn't and needn't be common in a x-wind approach. The best thing to do when you are hitting the stops is release the stick for a second then return to flying it with a normal control level. It makes no difference to the flight path as when you are bouncing from one stop to the other all you are doing is exercising the stick, the aircraft can't react that fast!
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 02:07
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Hand Solo

So you're saying the guy should have let go of the stick for a second and the AB would have fixed the landing?? I know i'm exagerating......but if you really believe this, then continue solo, please.

But i'm in with some other guys. Most pilots who have been on a B then moved to AB know that the latter are tricky in x-winds, i presume that the company knows aswell. If only the roll-demand would fade out, just as the pitch demand, it would be much handier and more predictable, almost like an aircraft.
But pride prevails, just as with the fixed throttle.
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 02:31
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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A Pilot's perspective.

10/10 for Airbus because a bit of competition is always a good thing. By keeping Boeing on their toes the aviation world can now benefit from the development of the 777, 747-8, and 787.

As far as the Airbus product goes,

RUBBISH.
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 05:49
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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My only question is; how come if you have a 38kts gust limitation on A320 you are still performing a landing in a 45-60 gusts?
Any 320 driver comment?
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 05:54
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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@Skydrol Leak

38kts is not a limitation, its only a demonstrated crosswind back from the
old days of flight testing that beast for certification.

If you are Chuck Yeager and think you can handle it with 60, no problem.
There is NO official limitation for crosswind (except for Autoland approaches)
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 06:04
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gretchenfrage
Hand Solo

So you're saying the guy should have let go of the stick for a second and the AB would have fixed the landing?? I know i'm exagerating......but if you really believe this, then continue solo, please.
Errr no, I'm not saying that at all. Can you see anywhere in my post where I mention this particular flight, or landing in general?

Have you actually flown an A320?
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 06:36
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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If the aircraft x-wind limit is 33-g38 kts, does that assume the landing gear can absorb a landing with full drift on a dry runway?? Can the tyres cope with that sort of side loads on a 320?
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Old 2nd Mar 2008, 06:37
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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CAT 111 Dual.

Wrong. Fundamentally. The crosswind limit is is exactly as stated previously in this thread. It is defined as the crosswind at which no pilot input is required in yaw until the nosewheel is down in a normal landing (same for any commercial jet). Yes you can land with more of a crosswind if you are a good pilot but you are exceeding the certified limit and will be hung in any aaib investigation that arises.

Those of you that state that the airbus is fundamentally flawed either by experience or from what a friend said are imho talking bo//ox or rubbish pilots. I have 4000+ hours A320 family and am happy to land to the appropriate limitations. I also have 700 hours Boeing widebody and find it a joy to fly.

Either learn how to fly it properly and learn the appropriate limitations or quit whinging.
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