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LH A320 Rough Landing @ Hamburg

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LH A320 Rough Landing @ Hamburg

Old 3rd Mar 2008, 19:47
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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on the 777, the rear two tires (one on each side of each truck) turn opposite direction of turn - on the ground to help tighten/reduce turning radius and (if I remember correctly) also reduce scrubbing of inside tires. They MUST lock straight before takeoff thrust is applied, or a t/o warning occurs. They remain straight in the air, and there is NO crabbing of it's gear for landing.
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 19:49
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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You could always take 'Mr 4 Engine Glider Pilot's ' advice

Jon di Paolo
Sky News Online
Updated:16:44, Monday March 03, 2008

A plane carrying more than 100 passengers escaped disaster by a hair's breadth as it tried to touch down in gale-force winds.

The passenger jet attempts to landThe Lufthansa passenger jet was buffeted by powerful crosswinds as it attempted to land at Hamburg airport.

Video shot at the scene shows the Airbus A320 struggling to keep in line with the runway as it makes its approach.

Just as it is about to plant its wheels on the tarmac it rolls, scraping one of its wings along the ground, before aborting the landing and flying away.

The aircraft, which was carrying 131 passengers and five crew on a flight from Munich, circled the airport before touching down safely a second time.

Passengers were unhurt but "shaken up" and were given assistance by psychologically-trained staff at the airport, a Lufthansa spokesperson said.

The jet's wing was scraped but otherwise it was undamaged and is now back in service.

Eric Moody, a former British Airways Boeing 747 captain, said everyone on board had had a lucky escape.

He explained that standard procedure when landing in a crosswind is to line the plane up with the runway on approach, then use the rudder and aileron - a hinged control surface on the wing - to straighten up at the very last moment.

Mr Moody said it was a tremendously difficult skill which the pilot had not quite managed.

"It's not an easy thing to do," he told Sky News Online.

"You have to be so precise. You've got to steel your nerves to hold it there, and then in one movement kick the rudder, move the opposite aileron and plant it on the runway."

The airline's spokesman told Sky News Online the jet had been hit by a very strong gust of wind just as it was about to touch down.

He added the airline was "very pleased" with the pilots - saying they had coped well with an "extraordinary" situation.

Thirteen people died and severe damage was caused over the weekend as storms tore across central Europe, bringing torrential rain and winds of up to 125mph.

In January, 136 passengers escaped unhurt when a British Airways Boeing 777 crash-landed short of the runway at London's Heathrow Airport.
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 19:52
  #143 (permalink)  
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Llondel

Doesn't the B777 have main gear with features similar to the B52?
No it doesn't. As I remember the aft pair of wheels on the main wheel bogies of the 777 are 'steerable', rather like the 'body gear' is on a 747. You cannot align the main gear with the rwy C/L in a xwind as I understand you can do on a B52.


Regards
Exeng
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 20:03
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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What time UTC did it happen?

What time UTC did it happen? News are reporting winds up to 155 mph during landing which is equivalent to 135 knots.

EDDH 012350Z 26015KT CAVOK 06/03 Q0997 NOSIG=
EDDH 012320Z 27014KT CAVOK 05/02 Q0997 NOSIG=
EDDH 012250Z 27013KT CAVOK 05/02 Q0997 NOSIG=
EDDH 012220Z 27013KT 9999 FEW023 SCT070 05/02 Q0998 NOSIG=
EDDH 012150Z 28014KT 9999 SCT023 BKN060 05/02 Q0998 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 012120Z 27013KT 9999 FEW023 BKN060 06/01 Q0998 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 012050Z 27017KT 9999 FEW023 BKN070 06/02 Q0998 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 012020Z 28020G33KT 9999 FEW023 BKN070 06/01 Q0997 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 011950Z 28019KT 9999 FEW023 BKN070 07/01 Q0997 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 011920Z 28020G30KT 9999 FEW023 BKN035 06/02 Q0997 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 011850Z 28022G37KT 9999 FEW023 BKN035 06/01 Q0997 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 011820Z 28022G38KT 9999 BKN025 07/02 Q0996 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 011750Z 28021G34KT 9999 SCT023 06/02 Q0996 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 011720Z 28026G42KT 9999 -SHRA FEW012 BKN023 07/02 Q0995 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 011650Z 29023G35KT 9999 BKN025 07/02 Q0994 TEMPO 30030G45KT=
EDDH 011620Z 29025G37KT 9999 FEW015 SCT033 07/01 Q0994 TEMPO 30035G50KT=
EDDH 011550Z 29026G44KT 9999 FEW025 SCT050 BKN120 07/01 Q0993 TEMPO 30035G55KT=
EDDH 011520Z 30023G42KT 9000 -SHRA FEW014 BKN024 06/03 Q0992 TEMPO 30035G55KT=
EDDH 011450Z 29027G40KT 8000 BKN035 07/01 Q0991 TEMPO 30035G55KT=
EDDH 011420Z 29029G43KT 8000 -SHRA BKN029 07/02 Q0990 TEMPO 30035G55KT=
EDDH 011350Z 29030G44KT 8000 BKN029 BKN120 07/02 Q0989 TEMPO 30035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008=
EDDH 011320Z 29029G44KT 8000 -SHRA BKN023 07/03 Q0987 TEMPO 4000 SHRA BKN008=
EDDH 011250Z 30030G49KT 8000 FEW015 BKN020 08/04 Q0986 TEMPO 4000 SHRA BKN008=
EDDH 011220Z 29028G48KT 9000 -SHRA FEW011 BKN014 07/05 Q0984 TEMPO 29035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008=
EDDH 011150Z 28023G37KT 9999 FEW013 BKN017 08/06 Q0983 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRA BKN008=
EDDH 011120Z 28021G33KT 9999 -SHRA FEW012 BKN015 08/05 Q0983 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008CB=
EDDH 011050Z 28019G34KT 9000 -SHRA FEW013 BKN017 07/05 Q0982 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008CB=
EDDH 011020Z 27021G32KT 8000 -SHRA FEW013 BKN017 07/05 Q0981 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008CB=
EDDH 010950Z 27016G32KT 9000 -SHRA FEW013TCU BKN018 07/05 Q0981 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008CB=
EDDH 010920Z 27021G33KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015TCU BKN022 07/05 Q0981 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008CB=
EDDH 010850Z 27012G28KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015TCU BKN022 07/04 Q0980 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008CB=
EDDH 010820Z 26017G29KT 9000 -SHRA FEW015TCU BKN022 07/05 Q0980 RERA TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008CB=
EDDH 010750Z 27013G27KT 7000 -SHRA FEW015 BKN022 07/04 Q0980 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008CB=
EDDH 010720Z 27017G30KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015 BKN022 07/04 Q0980 TEMPO 28025G45KT=
EDDH 010650Z 27018G28KT 9000 FEW015CB BKN022 07/04 Q0979 TEMPO 28025G45KT=
EDDH 010620Z 28013G31KT 9999 -SHRA FEW012 SCT015CB BKN025 06/04 Q0978 RERA TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008=
EDDH 010550Z 28016G30KT 9999 -SHRA FEW012 SCT015CB BKN025 07/05 Q0978 REGS TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008=
EDDH 010520Z 25014KT 9000 SHRAGS FEW012 SCT015CB BKN025 06/05 Q0978 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 BKN008=
EDDH 010450Z 25010G24KT 9999 -RA FEW013 BKN022 06/05 Q0977 RERA TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRA BKN008=
EDDH 010420Z 24008G18KT 9999 RA FEW015 BKN026 BKN120 06/05 Q0978 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 BKN008=
EDDH 010350Z 24011KT 9999 RA FEW015 BKN028 BKN100 06/05 Q0978 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 BKN008=
EDDH 010320Z 24011KT 9999 -RA FEW015 BKN034 BKN100 06/04 Q0979 RERA TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRA BKN008=
EDDH 010250Z 25009G20KT 9000 RA FEW008 SCT014 BKN023 06/04 Q0980 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 BKN008=
EDDH 010220Z 28016G28KT 7000 RA FEW008 SCT014 OVC025 06/04 Q0981 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 BKN008=
EDDH 010150Z 27020G30KT 4500 +RA SCT008 BKN014 OVC024 08/06 Q0982 TEMPO 25020G40KT BKN008=
EDDH 010120Z 23015G25KT 8000 RA SCT008 BKN011 08/07 Q0982 TEMPO 25020G40KT 4000 BKN008=
EDDH 010050Z 24010G23KT 9999 -RA FEW008 BKN012 08/07 Q0983 TEMPO 22020G40KT 4000 RA BKN008=
EDDH 010020Z 23020G31KT 8000 -RA FEW008 BKN012 08/07 Q0984 TEMPO 22020G40KT 4000 RA BKN008=

Last edited by PitotTube; 3rd Mar 2008 at 21:14.
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 20:38
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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For sure if a pilot during a sim session with a wind ( 290/33 gusts to 49 ) like that on a rwy 23 is able to handle the aircraft safely or like today without too much damage, i would call him a very good pilot with great skill.

I don't want in any case to judge the decision of the crew as it's always easy to criticize when you are not in the situation... but as a young pilot without so much experience, I want to learn from this incident.

So as I understand here is the situation before the beginning of the approach :
- The crew is aware of the xwind
- Since 2 days all the Germans medias broadcast a warning for a storm the Saturday morning
- The crew has heard already on the radio that others aircrafts chose to divert or chose an other R/W
- There is 131 passengers aboard which must probably will understand a delay or a diversion which such weather
- The copilot is 24, probably a good pilot but most probably she doesn't have a lot of experiences in such an adverse weather(I might be wrong;-))
- R/W 23 in HAM can be really tricky

Ok the decision is taken to do the approach...

- During the approach it must be really bumpy and uncomfortable ( for my part i did an approach friday with a steady 15 and gust 28 in the axe of the R/W, probably one of my most uncomfortable approach)
- There must be a lot of variation in the speed( Where to call for a GA for my part i think +/- 10 kts is a good limit)
- Both pilot must already be stress by the approach

Ok no GA, let's go for a tricky landing...

- Ok I am not a Bus pilot so I can't judge the xwind landing technique, but i have the impression that it's take ages to push the TOGA....

Well I think that this case will be a lot discuss during CRM courses in the future... Hopefully for the crew and the passengers saturday the holes of the Swiss cheese where not all aline..
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 20:53
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Sky News Online
Updated:16:44, Monday March 03, 2008

A plane carrying more than 100 passengers escaped disaster by a hair's breadth as it tried to touch down in gale-force winds.

The passenger jet attempts to landThe Lufthansa passenger jet was buffeted by powerful crosswinds as it attempted to land at Hamburg airport.

From looking at the Sky News active blurb just now,they are reporting that the aircraft involved was an A380 at MUC....They really do have their wires crossed this time

Now an A380...that would be very interesting to see
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 21:28
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Video was just shown on the BBC news..
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 21:31
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Just shown on News at Ten.... Whose smirking talking heads (McDonut and some woman) seemed to find it terribly amusing.

Wers!!

Last edited by BEagle; 4th Mar 2008 at 06:50.
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 22:03
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Interestingly the commonly posted U tube of the Boeing 777 demonstrating max Xwind landing, seems to land on the runway offset and then "kick" it straight before lowering the nosewheel.
I've got some video from a Farnborough airshow many years ago of an Ilyushin IL96 being demonstrated. After a normal approach the pilot deliberately cross controlled it to plant the maingear down with considerable drift, before straightening up and lowering the nose. Seems to suggest that on that type (at least), and maybe some others, landing with some drift would be preferable to scraping a wing or engine.
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 23:02
  #150 (permalink)  
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Above on the thread someone mentioned "what if" it had been an A321... (remember that TAP video at LPPT)

I'd say an A321 would've touched the runway during the flare, for a similar sidestick input. Of course, had the input been different, the possibilities are immense...
I usually tend to say that the A321 in gusty winds behaves like a boat at low speeds; you give an input and wait... sometimes it's like nothing happens and it just seems to go where it wants to go! Not so much in pitch but in terms of bank...

Video links are being deleted off different websites. Here's a fresh one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQcFCy_Uyvg

We'll see how long it lasts.
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 23:39
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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smile, your on candid camera

CNN interviewed a passenger from the flight. At one point he felt ATC had given the pilots an impossible task, to land on the least favorable runway.

Earlier in this thread, someone reminded us that the pilot must choose the runway and if needed, wait for it.

But the really interesting thing is the video. Add to this the proposed cockpit video recorder. Wouldn't it be interesting to see the exact control inputs by the pilot flying and compare it to the video of the results?

Upon numerous viewings of this event, I must agree with an earlier poster that this is a less than perfect crosswind landing. At one point, the wings are level and it is almost as if the PF stopped working the landing. Then the right wing came up and bam the left wing hit. I think it was a bit of luck that the outcome wasn't worse than it was.

I do hope someone will post the investigative report someday. I also have to think that the airline "spun" this incident in an effort to avoid lawsuits. The real heroes are the airline pilots who never make the headlines.

If this plane had hit the right wing first, at least you would know how hard they were trying.

Last edited by sevenstrokeroll; 3rd Mar 2008 at 23:51. Reason: clarify wind
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 23:40
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Being a Bus driver, and having reviewed the video over and over again, I am going to say something apparently controversial: he made a good job of a bad situation (which he probably should not have been in the first place).

1) On the video on YouTube it looks to me like he is coming in with Conf3. Which makes sense for the 320 in these conditions - even after the ELAC upgrade has taken place.

2) The wind clearly picks up below 50ft, but he is still on the centreline (or at least the cockpit is). It does not look like he deviates significantly from it below 100agl.

3) He does drop it into the ground, with left gear touching first, then right (see the smoke in the video), and then a bounce followed by a huge gust picking up the right wing.

4) The aircraft rolls left (causing the lefty wingtip to touch), then rolls back to the right, after a short delay. But Bus drivers know that it takes about half a second from a full sidestick input to actually getting the spoilers to give a good roll rate. The photo clearly shows no spoliers deployed to correct the roll for this exact reason. And I believe THAT is the cause of the wingtip strike.

Conclusion: he was caught in a very bad situation but made a reasonable landing attempt (except perhaps choosing to land on that runway in the first place). I just hope this prompts Airbus to quicken the response times for full sidestick input on final approach (which by the way is not unusual in strong gusty crosswinds).
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Old 3rd Mar 2008, 23:54
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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There's a lot of rubbish being talked on this thread by people who either don't fly the Airbus FBW types and don't understand how they work - or those who probably aren't pilots at all!

Demonstrated x wind limits are treated as hard limits by many companys - including mine. Up to those limits, the aircraft is perfectly manageable. There are a couple of tricks which can help, some have been mentioned here but I would recommend that they are taken with a pinch of salt as you don't know who the poster is and you may find it hard trying to explain to your chief pilot that you dented an aeroplane trying a technique you heard about on PPRuNe!

I was a passenger in a similar landing in a 737 in the 70's where the wingtip contacted the grass at the edge of the runway. It's not the preserve of the Airbus!
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Old 4th Mar 2008, 00:05
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Video links are being deleted off different websites. Here's a fresh one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQcFCy_Uyvg

We'll see how long it lasts.

What i really wanted to see posted again was those other 3 clips of that same day by the same guy at HAM, but effortless it seems no one had the ideia to saved them before they disappeared only few hours after being there on Youtube...it was a 757, a 738 and a GA of another one i cannot recall now...all of them pretty scary with real Guts
The main problem its that i dont know how to save clips from Youtube to my Disk...i really hope someone had done that...
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Old 4th Mar 2008, 00:06
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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As a wannabe and just learning to understand METARS, can someone please enlighten me as to the meaning of the bits labelled "TEMPO"

ie:

TEMPO 30035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008=
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Old 4th Mar 2008, 00:09
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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TEMPO 30035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008
TEMPO= A Temporary change of 2 hours or less is expected during the forecast period.
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Old 4th Mar 2008, 00:12
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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1) On the video on YouTube it looks to me like he is coming in with Conf3. Which makes sense for the 320 in these conditions - even after the ELAC upgrade has taken place.
As a soon-to-be 'bus driver, could you explain which ELAC updates are you talking about?

Thanks!
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Old 4th Mar 2008, 00:16
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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dan

you mentioned a 737 that hit its wingtip many years ago...was it the wingtip lowered into the wind or away from the wind?
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Old 4th Mar 2008, 00:20
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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This is called "Learn to Love Left Crosswind."

With the wind from the left you get the gusts more on the nose -> good

Whereas with the crosswind from the right, as in this case, the gusts veer to worsen the situation -> bad
This is why that was almost certainly the wrong runway...
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Old 4th Mar 2008, 00:22
  #160 (permalink)  
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TEMPO

Answering as a gunnabe also:

I think TEMPO = a temporary forecast or wx report, usually given for a specific amount of time, ie. 15-30 minutes after which it expires.

If I'm wrong I'm sure I'll be informed!
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