Strange habits of your copilots...
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Nor me. It's a constant battle to persuade people to disconnect everything when it's appropriate to do so.
Another conundrum: Why is it that so many young FOs insist on starting the descent before top of descent? Are they that lacking in confidence about their own ability to get back onto the path from above?
Another conundrum: Why is it that so many young FOs insist on starting the descent before top of descent? Are they that lacking in confidence about their own ability to get back onto the path from above?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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The one I 'like' is, on the 737, to select 'Descend Now' some 20 miles early (on the basis that 'VNAV cannot be trusted') and then have it fly down at 1000 fpm to rejoin the same 'untrustable' VNAV profile some 10,000 lower
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To the poster who rudely scoffed at his remarks, and coming from a person with "a few thousand hours under his belt", I think bfisk shows a sensible attitude for his experience. I consider that SOPs must be followed, but inidividual technique may be applied and indeed encouraged where pertinent so long as it doesn't compromise SOP or safety.
As has been quoted from JAR-OPS above, it is OK to deviate from an airline or manufacturer's SOP where following such would be unsafe. It is not however, an excuse to do what we please when we please.
There will always be differences in operating in the flight deck. To eliminate all differences our operating manuals would be undigestably thick. I will only question an FO's technique if it is compromising the safety or commercial operating efficiency of the aircraft. Sometimes letting people get on with it builds their confidence allowing more open acceptance of constructive criticism in the future.
Strangely enough the old FD problem was often reversed for me where new FOs tried to fly with it off as often as possible in a vain attempt to replicate their light aircraft skills. This inevitably hindered their progress. A balance must be struck somewhere.
As has been quoted from JAR-OPS above, it is OK to deviate from an airline or manufacturer's SOP where following such would be unsafe. It is not however, an excuse to do what we please when we please.
There will always be differences in operating in the flight deck. To eliminate all differences our operating manuals would be undigestably thick. I will only question an FO's technique if it is compromising the safety or commercial operating efficiency of the aircraft. Sometimes letting people get on with it builds their confidence allowing more open acceptance of constructive criticism in the future.
Strangely enough the old FD problem was often reversed for me where new FOs tried to fly with it off as often as possible in a vain attempt to replicate their light aircraft skills. This inevitably hindered their progress. A balance must be struck somewhere.
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Just on the Vnav topic. I really dont trust it at TOD. Twice I have had to revert to CWS to stop it diving for the path. Now I just use V/S or Level Change.
Of course its only a problem when I see a long green arrow pointing up into a red bar!!!
Of course its only a problem when I see a long green arrow pointing up into a red bar!!!
Last edited by TolTol; 21st Jul 2007 at 11:15.
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TolTol,
Just to be a pedant....
The necessity for you to disconnect the A/P during a VNAV PTH dive for the profile isn't a problem with VNAV per se, it is a problem with the rate at which the aircraft responds in pitch - placard limit reversion - to an upcoming overspeed situation.
The transfer function time constant is way out in my opinion, which, of course necessitates your timely intervention, one way or the other.
The FMC Guide even mentions this in the section on DES. Update 10.2 shifts the reversion to Vmo/Mmo - 7 kts to try and combat this problem but it is still too late in my opinion.
In my experience, those who mis-trust VNAV computed profiles inevitably don't fully understand what the algorithms do and why a deviation may or may not result during the descent. As for energy compensation, well.....
It should be no surprise that the pilot is responsible for speed control during a VNAV PTH descent. Again, the FMC Guide states this too!
The systemic misunderstandings that underpin BOAC's observations are quite prevalent and really just reflect a laziness in terms of getting to grips with the functionality Boeing have placed at our fingertips.
My $0.02.
Just to be a pedant....
The necessity for you to disconnect the A/P during a VNAV PTH dive for the profile isn't a problem with VNAV per se, it is a problem with the rate at which the aircraft responds in pitch - placard limit reversion - to an upcoming overspeed situation.
The transfer function time constant is way out in my opinion, which, of course necessitates your timely intervention, one way or the other.
The FMC Guide even mentions this in the section on DES. Update 10.2 shifts the reversion to Vmo/Mmo - 7 kts to try and combat this problem but it is still too late in my opinion.
In my experience, those who mis-trust VNAV computed profiles inevitably don't fully understand what the algorithms do and why a deviation may or may not result during the descent. As for energy compensation, well.....
It should be no surprise that the pilot is responsible for speed control during a VNAV PTH descent. Again, the FMC Guide states this too!
The systemic misunderstandings that underpin BOAC's observations are quite prevalent and really just reflect a laziness in terms of getting to grips with the functionality Boeing have placed at our fingertips.
My $0.02.
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Not so much strange...
...as - ahem - interesting?
Own navigation to a waypoint - ATC liberally clears us to descent 2000 ft. below MSA. F/O happily acknowledeges - and then starts arguing that "...well, we're radar monitored...". When that was refuted, he tried "We're under radar vectors" - but had to acknowledge that no heading had been assigned. And just to compound matters - when I requested that he infom ATC we were stopping descent at 5000 ft & requesting radar vectors, he thought that this was the right time for a jibe at the old man in the LHS: "We're cleared to descend altitude 3000 ft..." instead of just requesting the vectors.
Please don't tell me that this is the new generation of future captains we're seing here??? Thank god there are 10 good'uns for every bad'un
, so the BC will still have some choice as to who's put forward for upgrade 
Own navigation to a waypoint - ATC liberally clears us to descent 2000 ft. below MSA. F/O happily acknowledeges - and then starts arguing that "...well, we're radar monitored...". When that was refuted, he tried "We're under radar vectors" - but had to acknowledge that no heading had been assigned. And just to compound matters - when I requested that he infom ATC we were stopping descent at 5000 ft & requesting radar vectors, he thought that this was the right time for a jibe at the old man in the LHS: "We're cleared to descend altitude 3000 ft..." instead of just requesting the vectors.
Please don't tell me that this is the new generation of future captains we're seing here??? Thank god there are 10 good'uns for every bad'un
, so the BC will still have some choice as to who's put forward for upgrade
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all captains are training captains. f/os that wont take the advice of the more experienced bloke next to them shouldnt be there. perhaps a case of their confidence outweighing their ability.
the problem these days is: young pilots are getting into jets with virtually no experience. back in the really bad old days, you wouldnt get a look in until you were 8-10thousand hours into your career before you got a right hand seat on a burner.
all of the previous comments basically are about airmanship. guarding thrust levers, following flight directors, hand flying as opposed to auto, are all basically covered by the premise of basic airmanship. i have seen many f/os, and captains by the way, in a blind effort to obey sop's, putting the aircraft into less than desirable situations.
basically, follow sop's until they try to kill you, iron your uniform, and fly the machine.
cheers
the problem these days is: young pilots are getting into jets with virtually no experience. back in the really bad old days, you wouldnt get a look in until you were 8-10thousand hours into your career before you got a right hand seat on a burner.
all of the previous comments basically are about airmanship. guarding thrust levers, following flight directors, hand flying as opposed to auto, are all basically covered by the premise of basic airmanship. i have seen many f/os, and captains by the way, in a blind effort to obey sop's, putting the aircraft into less than desirable situations.
basically, follow sop's until they try to kill you, iron your uniform, and fly the machine.
cheers
Last edited by ithinkso; 23rd Jul 2007 at 03:47. Reason: spelling
all captains are training captains
I believe to be a training captain you need to be able to fly with a very high standard and to have been thoroughly checked out to ensure strict standardised compliance with SOP's.
The reason I say this is that some of the captains I fly with fly to a poor standard and have poor SOP's.
2 of my captains never believe in doing a preflight external inspection because the engineers do it anyway. Every brief is simple 2 words "standard brief".
Instrument check "all looks ok here" (but HDG bug, QNH, speed bugs, CDI and assigned altitude not set !!)
These captains expect me to comply with their ways because they are just too lazy and couldn't care about doing it properly.
So are you now telling me that they should be training me to fly this way ?
How can this be a case of my confidence outweighing my ability ?
I am not perfect and also make mistakes but I have to admit that I have seen a few very incompetent captains out there and for them to train me to fly their way would be a joke and going backwards.
Just because you are a captain does mean that you perfect, know everything (like some think they do) and that you always fly better than a copilot in every possible way. There sometimes might be better techniques out their (which an FO might use).
Also as you know, every pilots has their own flying technique and their own perception of what the SOP'say and what good airmanship is. I have seen large variations between various captains yet in their own mind they all believe to be follwing the SOP's. Makes it worse when they expect me to fly "their" way.
What this means as an FO, I have to adapt the way I fly with every different captain because they all have "trained me" differently.
I shouldn't have to review my book of notes on each captain before I fly (as I do) to ensure I fly "their way". Its very confusing for me and it makes my life very difficult if I have to fly a different way with every captain.
Quite often what 1 captain says or does completely contradicts what another says.
I just don't know what is right or wrong anymore
A lot of times i really want to say just "
OFF" and leave me alone.This is not a training flight/line check and you are not a check/training captain either.
Last edited by John Citizen; 23rd Jul 2007 at 06:21.
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Shall I be nasty for a change...?
Talking about my F/Os...
xxx
Well, most of them are great guys, good pilots, and many are personal friends, but there were some in my life that I will never forget. Since it probably does not apply to you, just laugh with my opinions of some of the idiots with whom I had to solo some airplanes... By chance, unlike most captains nowadays, I always had a flight engineer... the most important crewmember.
xxx
A few sentences from flight engineers adressed to me as they were gone out of the flight deck "Hey, Pablo, you are not going to let that idiot really land the plane, are you?"... "Pablo, I am a professional engineer, and never will be a pilot... and this guy is a professional first officer, he will never be a captain"... "Pablo, I think his brain has been DMI-ed"...
xxx
We had "two-tones Jones" as a F/O with PanAm... he had a high pitched voice, but when taking the mike, to make an ATC report, or a PA to the cabin, his voice became two octaves lower and deeper. Same thing happened when a nice looking female F/A came to inquire about drinks or a meal for us... Jones clicked his switch on his throat, to speak to her...
xxx
Then I remember a flight engineer with long legs, having is his feet almost amputaded by an F/O who moved his seat all the way back. So I briefed my engineers on preflight about that F/O's habits... they used the fire axe to block the movement of the seat to full aft, on the seat tracks.
xxx
Occasionally, I had new F/Os who never had flown with me, and did not know about my sense of humour... One engineer briefed one F/O, while I went to shake hands with passengers... "You know, with Pablo, he his a great guy, but he never will let you land the plane"... "if you want a landing, he will sell you one for 20 dollars"... after 2 landings I did myself, that F/O went in his wallet, and pulled four or five 20 dollar bills and put them on the pedestal... "Can I have the next few landings, Pablo?"... this went on for a few days, I think I got some $200 total out of his wallet... Finally, we had a nice layover in Bogota, and at the bar, the 3 of us, and the 4 F/As got my announcement... "Ladies and gentlemen, the drinks are on the F/O, here is the $200 he paid me the last few days for his "landing fees"...
xxx
Once I got an F/O who had stated that he hated gays... I said to him, with my best lovely smile and a gesture of disappointement "Well, too bad, but I am gay, you know?"... The flight got fine, he was PF, I was PNF... he started the approach, and getting on the ILS, I asked, "Have you ever flown a "coupled" approach, dear?"... he answered "No"... so I did engage the 3 channel autopilot (but not the autothrust), and as he passed 1,000 feet AGL, his hand on the thrust levers, I put my hand on top of his, and we flew a delicious "coupled" approach, hand in hand, with passion... I think it was his worst "approach" ever... Of course, the three of us laughed about it at the hotel bar debriefing, after he learned about my practical jokes... From then on, this F/O is one of my best friends, he keeps on calling me "¡Pablo, mi amor querido!"...
xxx
I will keep the next ones for another occasion...
Happy contrails
xxx
Well, most of them are great guys, good pilots, and many are personal friends, but there were some in my life that I will never forget. Since it probably does not apply to you, just laugh with my opinions of some of the idiots with whom I had to solo some airplanes... By chance, unlike most captains nowadays, I always had a flight engineer... the most important crewmember.
xxx
A few sentences from flight engineers adressed to me as they were gone out of the flight deck "Hey, Pablo, you are not going to let that idiot really land the plane, are you?"... "Pablo, I am a professional engineer, and never will be a pilot... and this guy is a professional first officer, he will never be a captain"... "Pablo, I think his brain has been DMI-ed"...
xxx
We had "two-tones Jones" as a F/O with PanAm... he had a high pitched voice, but when taking the mike, to make an ATC report, or a PA to the cabin, his voice became two octaves lower and deeper. Same thing happened when a nice looking female F/A came to inquire about drinks or a meal for us... Jones clicked his switch on his throat, to speak to her...
xxx
Then I remember a flight engineer with long legs, having is his feet almost amputaded by an F/O who moved his seat all the way back. So I briefed my engineers on preflight about that F/O's habits... they used the fire axe to block the movement of the seat to full aft, on the seat tracks.
xxx
Occasionally, I had new F/Os who never had flown with me, and did not know about my sense of humour... One engineer briefed one F/O, while I went to shake hands with passengers... "You know, with Pablo, he his a great guy, but he never will let you land the plane"... "if you want a landing, he will sell you one for 20 dollars"... after 2 landings I did myself, that F/O went in his wallet, and pulled four or five 20 dollar bills and put them on the pedestal... "Can I have the next few landings, Pablo?"... this went on for a few days, I think I got some $200 total out of his wallet... Finally, we had a nice layover in Bogota, and at the bar, the 3 of us, and the 4 F/As got my announcement... "Ladies and gentlemen, the drinks are on the F/O, here is the $200 he paid me the last few days for his "landing fees"...
xxx
Once I got an F/O who had stated that he hated gays... I said to him, with my best lovely smile and a gesture of disappointement "Well, too bad, but I am gay, you know?"... The flight got fine, he was PF, I was PNF... he started the approach, and getting on the ILS, I asked, "Have you ever flown a "coupled" approach, dear?"... he answered "No"... so I did engage the 3 channel autopilot (but not the autothrust), and as he passed 1,000 feet AGL, his hand on the thrust levers, I put my hand on top of his, and we flew a delicious "coupled" approach, hand in hand, with passion... I think it was his worst "approach" ever... Of course, the three of us laughed about it at the hotel bar debriefing, after he learned about my practical jokes... From then on, this F/O is one of my best friends, he keeps on calling me "¡Pablo, mi amor querido!"...
xxx
I will keep the next ones for another occasion...
Happy contrails
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john john john,
yes you do have to react differently to every captain you fly with. thats the nature of the game. its always been that way. sops dont mean that every flight deck you enter the dynamic between crew members will be the same. its simply a method of standardising operating procedures so that the operation will be conducted in a safe and calculated manner. it is also the means by with pilots are assessed during training. there are a million ways to skin a cat.
if a captain doesnt do preflight inspections, i assume somebody of the operating crew does. im sure that's buried somewhere in your sops. if no member of the operating crew is doing preflights, and you're happy to sit there and go flying, maybe it's you that is at some level of fault.
the term 'standard brief' is used by many major airlines, including the big australian one, where crews fly multiple sectors together during same day. it saves the repetition of going over the same rejected takeoff procedures, which basically dont change where ever one happens to be.
just relaxxxx
yes you do have to react differently to every captain you fly with. thats the nature of the game. its always been that way. sops dont mean that every flight deck you enter the dynamic between crew members will be the same. its simply a method of standardising operating procedures so that the operation will be conducted in a safe and calculated manner. it is also the means by with pilots are assessed during training. there are a million ways to skin a cat.
if a captain doesnt do preflight inspections, i assume somebody of the operating crew does. im sure that's buried somewhere in your sops. if no member of the operating crew is doing preflights, and you're happy to sit there and go flying, maybe it's you that is at some level of fault.
the term 'standard brief' is used by many major airlines, including the big australian one, where crews fly multiple sectors together during same day. it saves the repetition of going over the same rejected takeoff procedures, which basically dont change where ever one happens to be.
just relaxxxx
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Chuffer
I'am not ex military, far from it to be exact. But when some first officer who thinks they know best, questions my decisions or pretends they know it all, it annoys me. I know that safety is the number one concearn for any commander but at the same time i have a commercial responsibility to my company!!!!!
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Airbus Commander
I hope I never fly in your aircraft, before your "commercial responsibility" and contempt for your crew costs one airframe and 250 lives.
Item: 727 on approach to Cuenca. CVR - FO continually saying "you are too low" Ignored. Result CFIT
Item: CVR. Capt and enginer joking about FO "What is the difference between a duck and an FO? Well, a duck can fly" FOs warnings that they are hot and high ignored. Result Off the end of the runway
Item: Suspect u/c problem; Capt elects to fly round trying to fix. Fuel state gets lower and lower. FOs repeated warnings ignored. Result. Zero fuel, crash, all killed(and the irony is that the u/c problem was a faulty microswitch)
So come off your high horse and join the human race. You are not perfect - not even close.
Dick W
I hope I never fly in your aircraft, before your "commercial responsibility" and contempt for your crew costs one airframe and 250 lives.
Item: 727 on approach to Cuenca. CVR - FO continually saying "you are too low" Ignored. Result CFIT
Item: CVR. Capt and enginer joking about FO "What is the difference between a duck and an FO? Well, a duck can fly" FOs warnings that they are hot and high ignored. Result Off the end of the runway
Item: Suspect u/c problem; Capt elects to fly round trying to fix. Fuel state gets lower and lower. FOs repeated warnings ignored. Result. Zero fuel, crash, all killed(and the irony is that the u/c problem was a faulty microswitch)
So come off your high horse and join the human race. You are not perfect - not even close.
Dick W
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airbus-commander, not trying to flame you, but, there's no room in the modern cockpit for an over confident dictator, an FO's primary job is to keep you from killing yourself, you must give him the space to do his job, if not, he may be too intimidated to perform this primary function.
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What's in a name
LEM
just wanted to note my view on the throttle thing.
As a junior F/O(only got into the "jetviation world" recently) I havent much experience but the type I fly, and please disregard my nickname, we takeoff using a less the maximum power setting. There no written procedure but it's assumed we take the throttles into our hands in a way we are able to reach the TOGA buttons to press and ask for MAX thrust when we deem it necessary. That is the sole reason I keep my hand on the levers, loosly, but accurately positioned during takeoff up to 2000AGL(above which the TOGA switches are disabled).
I have a tiny amount of airbus experience, really tiny but I do know the basic system workings, and I can understand why my company expects the same on this type of a/c(e.g. flex detent, being ready to command MAX power)...
As our fellow from former Sabena says, it is a GOP, however having no experience with the 737 autoflight/thrust systems, can't comment on that.
Note: thrust levers in our flying tin are quite rigid and one can be sure a hand will not retard them due to even severe turbulence...
Concerning the tales of the copilot-screwups... it's a good laugh... I'm sure our captains have such amusing talks among eachother aswell, so well hey I'm happy I can give them a laugh and something to talk about.
cheers
just wanted to note my view on the throttle thing.
As a junior F/O(only got into the "jetviation world" recently) I havent much experience but the type I fly, and please disregard my nickname, we takeoff using a less the maximum power setting. There no written procedure but it's assumed we take the throttles into our hands in a way we are able to reach the TOGA buttons to press and ask for MAX thrust when we deem it necessary. That is the sole reason I keep my hand on the levers, loosly, but accurately positioned during takeoff up to 2000AGL(above which the TOGA switches are disabled).
I have a tiny amount of airbus experience, really tiny but I do know the basic system workings, and I can understand why my company expects the same on this type of a/c(e.g. flex detent, being ready to command MAX power)...
As our fellow from former Sabena says, it is a GOP, however having no experience with the 737 autoflight/thrust systems, can't comment on that.
Note: thrust levers in our flying tin are quite rigid and one can be sure a hand will not retard them due to even severe turbulence...
Concerning the tales of the copilot-screwups... it's a good laugh... I'm sure our captains have such amusing talks among eachother aswell, so well hey I'm happy I can give them a laugh and something to talk about.
cheers
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equal numbers
hello everyone,
IMHO for every authoritative captain there is one non assertive copilot.
and god forbid when they fly together the holes line up.
Enough accidents have happened to prove this!!
to deal with another induvidual and to acieve a task togeather is the challenge. some amoount of maturity helps.
IMHO for every authoritative captain there is one non assertive copilot.
and god forbid when they fly together the holes line up.
Enough accidents have happened to prove this!!
to deal with another induvidual and to acieve a task togeather is the challenge. some amoount of maturity helps.
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BelArgUSA
Thanks for an entertaining post. It is nice to read some lighter stories; I look forward to your next installment.
CRM is an important topic but we all know "instructors" for whom we have to tailor procedures and unless we have only flown with one person in the past, we all have had to adapt our methods whilst acting under the authority of the aircraft commander. Its their ship and should be flown their way.
AB
CRM is an important topic but we all know "instructors" for whom we have to tailor procedures and unless we have only flown with one person in the past, we all have had to adapt our methods whilst acting under the authority of the aircraft commander. Its their ship and should be flown their way.
AB
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yes you do have to react differently to every captain you fly with. By ithinkso
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Abu Bebo
With respect, in fact it's the company's ship. And the company has written a book about flying it the company's way.
The FO works for the company, not the captain that they happen to be flying with on a particular day.
I always get an uneasy feeling when a captain starts deviating from the SOPs for no good reason.
Cheerio!
CC
Its their ship and should be flown their way.
The FO works for the company, not the captain that they happen to be flying with on a particular day.
I always get an uneasy feeling when a captain starts deviating from the SOPs for no good reason.
Cheerio!
CC
