Strange habits of your copilots...
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LEM and others...
It is simply GOOD AIRMANSHIP to put your hands on the thrust levers after TO and this until 10.000' or autopilot engage, whichever is later. Anyone NOT doing this will get a remark in my book. Why on earth would you have any problem with this?! As you fly the B737, you must know that you can not by any means trust the autothrottle 100%. At Sabena, we called this GOP. Good Operators Practice.
Also regarding the FD... It is a GUIDANCE tool and NOT an ORDER bar.
This simply means that you should never BLINDLY follow the FD. Boeing says that on the B737, any pitch of 22.5 degrees or higher is exessive, yet the FD often asks you for a higher one. It merely wants you to keep speed. NEVER EVER (exept if ground contact is imminent or severe windshear) go beyond 20 degrees pitch on the B737. So what if speed goes up a little bit. Better this than the opposite.
The same for turns. Don't wait for the FD to start giving you a turn, already start the turn and the FD will follow. For god's sake, fly the aircraft and don't be a FD slave. Again, GOP, Good Operator's Practice.
Rant over.
It is simply GOOD AIRMANSHIP to put your hands on the thrust levers after TO and this until 10.000' or autopilot engage, whichever is later. Anyone NOT doing this will get a remark in my book. Why on earth would you have any problem with this?! As you fly the B737, you must know that you can not by any means trust the autothrottle 100%. At Sabena, we called this GOP. Good Operators Practice.
Also regarding the FD... It is a GUIDANCE tool and NOT an ORDER bar.
This simply means that you should never BLINDLY follow the FD. Boeing says that on the B737, any pitch of 22.5 degrees or higher is exessive, yet the FD often asks you for a higher one. It merely wants you to keep speed. NEVER EVER (exept if ground contact is imminent or severe windshear) go beyond 20 degrees pitch on the B737. So what if speed goes up a little bit. Better this than the opposite.
The same for turns. Don't wait for the FD to start giving you a turn, already start the turn and the FD will follow. For god's sake, fly the aircraft and don't be a FD slave. Again, GOP, Good Operator's Practice.
Rant over.
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LEM and others...
It is simply GOOD AIRMANSHIP to put your hands on the thrust levers after TO and this until 10.000' or autopilot engage, whichever is later. Anyone NOT doing this will get a remark in my book. Why on earth would you have any problem with this?! As you fly the B737, you must know that you can not by any means trust the autothrottle 100%. At Sabena, we called this GOP. Good Operators Practice.
Are you talking about guarding the throttles or holding on to them? If you are so concerned about the autotrottles, why don't you keep your hands on them all the time? Which book are you putting your remarks in? Is this SOP in your new airline?
Also regarding the FD... It is a GUIDANCE tool and NOT an ORDER bar.
This simply means that you should never BLINDLY follow the FD. Boeing says that on the B737, any pitch of 22.5 degrees or higher is exessive, yet the FD often asks you for a higher one. It merely wants you to keep speed. NEVER EVER (exept if ground contact is imminent or severe windshear) go beyond 20 degrees pitch on the B737. So what if speed goes up a little bit. Better this than the opposite.
On a normal derated take off I've never seen a FD command 20 degrees+. On the other hand, I have never seen a 20 ANU limitation anywhere either.
It is simply GOOD AIRMANSHIP to put your hands on the thrust levers after TO and this until 10.000' or autopilot engage, whichever is later. Anyone NOT doing this will get a remark in my book. Why on earth would you have any problem with this?! As you fly the B737, you must know that you can not by any means trust the autothrottle 100%. At Sabena, we called this GOP. Good Operators Practice.
Are you talking about guarding the throttles or holding on to them? If you are so concerned about the autotrottles, why don't you keep your hands on them all the time? Which book are you putting your remarks in? Is this SOP in your new airline?
Also regarding the FD... It is a GUIDANCE tool and NOT an ORDER bar.
This simply means that you should never BLINDLY follow the FD. Boeing says that on the B737, any pitch of 22.5 degrees or higher is exessive, yet the FD often asks you for a higher one. It merely wants you to keep speed. NEVER EVER (exept if ground contact is imminent or severe windshear) go beyond 20 degrees pitch on the B737. So what if speed goes up a little bit. Better this than the opposite.
On a normal derated take off I've never seen a FD command 20 degrees+. On the other hand, I have never seen a 20 ANU limitation anywhere either.
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What is the difference between holding the throttles or guarding them?????
Anyhow my company's sop is to guard/hold the throttles when below msa. Or manual flying offcourse. Weird maybe but what kind of problem do you exactly have with the PF holding/guarding the throttles??????
Anyhow my company's sop is to guard/hold the throttles when below msa. Or manual flying offcourse. Weird maybe but what kind of problem do you exactly have with the PF holding/guarding the throttles??????
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The way I've been trained;
During take off, captain has his hand on the throttles up to V1, then removes his hand. FO then guards the throttles by placing his hand behind them in order to prevent any "uncommanded" movement. He keeps his hand there until climb thrust is set.
In theory, this prevents the captain from aborting above V1, and prevents him from yanking the throttles shut if he suffers from some kind of sudden medical condition.
After this critical phase I see no pressing demand to hang on to the throttles? If you disagree, then you should have your hand on the throttles at all times?
During take off, captain has his hand on the throttles up to V1, then removes his hand. FO then guards the throttles by placing his hand behind them in order to prevent any "uncommanded" movement. He keeps his hand there until climb thrust is set.
In theory, this prevents the captain from aborting above V1, and prevents him from yanking the throttles shut if he suffers from some kind of sudden medical condition.
After this critical phase I see no pressing demand to hang on to the throttles? If you disagree, then you should have your hand on the throttles at all times?
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Well in lvlcahnge with a/t in I sometimes just pull back on the thrust to rduce the v/s before level off.
I know should us v/s........but hey!
Let me reverse the question, would it be wrong to guard the thrust lever the entire flight???? I'm not asking if it is neccessary. Just if it is wrong?
I know should us v/s........but hey!
Let me reverse the question, would it be wrong to guard the thrust lever the entire flight???? I'm not asking if it is neccessary. Just if it is wrong?
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When my F/O questions my authority
Disregard the SOPs?
Get the operation into a potentially embarrassing (or indefensible at an inquiry) situation?
Put the aircraft in danger?
Part of the job of the FO is to watch the Captain's blind spots. Second pair of eyes and all that. One of the more difficult duties is to occasionally rein him in when he starts misbehaving. And yes, some Captains do.
Of course, there are plenty of good reasons to deviate from the SOPs from time to time. However, I know that there are some less responsible Capts who do so to show off, prove a point, or just do it because they can. This can quickly distract the FO, make his life difficult, and prevent him effectively functioning as a useful part of the crew.
People will ask, airbus-commander, if you're ex-military. In fact, with the attitude that seems to be on show here, I strongly suspect you're not.
All the best.
CC
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How about we talk about some of the strange habits of our Captains? I recemtly flew with one who emphasized during his crew brief that he does everything "the company way". He then proceeded to do just about nothing the company way. Granted, he didn't do anything unsafe, but I'm curious why say you'll be following the FSM and then not do it?
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flyboyike, I'm with you. Over and over again. It took perhaps 6 months as a fresh-faced FO to realize the universal truth that if somebody goes out of their way during a crew brief to say "I'm by the book" or "I'm pretty standard" it means just the opposite, hold on, it's going to be a long trip, and expect the unexpected, random, clueless, and dangerous.
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Tee Emm.....we have a windshear procedure,which does not advocate following the FD(AIRBUS stuff),which is what I think you are alluding too...but please explain to me what a "severe windshear" is???
Turbulence and other phenoms come is catergories.....lgt/med...etc/....wasnt aware that a windshear was in that class...PB
Turbulence and other phenoms come is catergories.....lgt/med...etc/....wasnt aware that a windshear was in that class...PB
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When I started the thread I had in mind strange habits.
That means one copilot (or First Officer if you prefer) out of, say, fifty, does strange things.
In my example, keeping the left hand on the thrust levers up to about 3000ft, is definitely strange.
Nobody else does this here.
It's not sop, and we can discuss a lot about all the points made here...
When I see this, I don't know what is happening in the FO mind: does he think we can abort after V1 if enough runway remains?
What if he suffers from sudden medical spasm and pulls the levers?
I see he's struggling a bit to keep that hand up all the way to 3000ft, instead of flying with both hands on the yoke, and I think "What the hell is this about? I don't want him to grow with this silly habit!"
Mind you, my reaction is not the one you may think: I'm not gonna be immediately upset by this, and I later on ask -almost- nicely the reason for that, I get upset by the answer!
Had he told me " I do this because I think it's a good idea", then fine, we'll discuss and maybe I will learn from him, but when I hear (or guess) the name of the geniousnowincharge as the origin of this habit, my blood makes one quick turn....
Re: the flight director commands:
Systematically keeping a lower attitude all the way to the after takeoff cklist is wrong.
Period.
As somebody stated, the flight director is not always right, but when it is it must be followed.
First al all, we are two in the cockpit: if you keep 3 degrees less all the time, the other guy doesn't know what the **** is happening to his colleagues' instruments - or mind.
Second, you don't know better than Mr. Boeing.
Third, noise abatement profiles, economy speed and blah blah.
IF THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO IGNORE IT, KEEP THE DAMN FLIGHT DIRECTOR CENTERED!
What else can I add...
Those who used terms like "normal Captain", or "you are not an instructor" and similar rubbish:
maybe one day you will learn things are not always as they should be in a perfect world, there are a lot of grey scales and hidden reasons...
To me, a Captain is always an instructor, and an instructor is often a man who had to sell his soul to the management, in very poor words.
Not always, but often.
After 10 years of command, I've only received expressions of gratitude from my old copilots, even thos who, at first, thought to call in sick every time they had to fly with me.
LEM
That means one copilot (or First Officer if you prefer) out of, say, fifty, does strange things.
In my example, keeping the left hand on the thrust levers up to about 3000ft, is definitely strange.
Nobody else does this here.
It's not sop, and we can discuss a lot about all the points made here...
When I see this, I don't know what is happening in the FO mind: does he think we can abort after V1 if enough runway remains?
What if he suffers from sudden medical spasm and pulls the levers?
I see he's struggling a bit to keep that hand up all the way to 3000ft, instead of flying with both hands on the yoke, and I think "What the hell is this about? I don't want him to grow with this silly habit!"
Mind you, my reaction is not the one you may think: I'm not gonna be immediately upset by this, and I later on ask -almost- nicely the reason for that, I get upset by the answer!
Had he told me " I do this because I think it's a good idea", then fine, we'll discuss and maybe I will learn from him, but when I hear (or guess) the name of the geniousnowincharge as the origin of this habit, my blood makes one quick turn....
Re: the flight director commands:
Systematically keeping a lower attitude all the way to the after takeoff cklist is wrong.
Period.
As somebody stated, the flight director is not always right, but when it is it must be followed.
First al all, we are two in the cockpit: if you keep 3 degrees less all the time, the other guy doesn't know what the **** is happening to his colleagues' instruments - or mind.
Second, you don't know better than Mr. Boeing.
Third, noise abatement profiles, economy speed and blah blah.
IF THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO IGNORE IT, KEEP THE DAMN FLIGHT DIRECTOR CENTERED!
What else can I add...
Those who used terms like "normal Captain", or "you are not an instructor" and similar rubbish:
maybe one day you will learn things are not always as they should be in a perfect world, there are a lot of grey scales and hidden reasons...
To me, a Captain is always an instructor, and an instructor is often a man who had to sell his soul to the management, in very poor words.
Not always, but often.
After 10 years of command, I've only received expressions of gratitude from my old copilots, even thos who, at first, thought to call in sick every time they had to fly with me.
LEM
I hate it when some captains call us co-pilots. I'm a First Officer d*mn it! I'm an airline pilot in Canada...I'm no "co" anything
Nothing wrong being called a Copilot. In fact it is an honourable rank held with pride by thousands of World War Two pilots.
The Copilot
I am a copilot, I sit on the right
I'm quick and courageous; I'm wonderfully bright
My job is remembering what the captain forgets
And I never talk back, so I have no regrets.
cho: I'm a lousy copilot and a long way from home.
I make out the flight plan and study the weather,
Pull up the gear, drop it, and stand by to feather
I make out his mail forms, I hire his whores,
And I fly his old crate to the tune of his snores.
I make out the flight plan according to Hoyle
I take all the readings, I check on the oil,
I hustle him out for the midnight alarm
I fly through the fog while he sleeps on my arm.
I treat him to coffee, I keep him in cokes
I laugh at his corn and his horrible jokes
And once in a while, when his landings are rusty,
I come through with, "Yessiree captain,it's gusty!"
All in all, I'm commissioned a general stooge
I sit on the right of this high-flying Scrooge
Some day I'll make captain, and then I'll be blest,
I'll give my poor tongue one long hell of a rest.
From The Wild Blue Yonder, Oscar Brand
RG
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I agree that it IS good airmanship to cover the thrust levers when (a) they are being moved by the autothrottle system, and (b) below MSA and close to the ground. The same goes for the flying controls.
I once selected climb thrust in the 737 (CL) and the thrust levers closed at 1500 feet! Since then I will always cover them after take-off!
Also LEM , if you are not happy with the habits of your co-pilots and you feel that what they are doing is the wrong thing then don't come on here making yourself look like a classic "P minus, G Plus" Captain, just discretely discuss it with your training department.
I once selected climb thrust in the 737 (CL) and the thrust levers closed at 1500 feet! Since then I will always cover them after take-off!
Also LEM , if you are not happy with the habits of your co-pilots and you feel that what they are doing is the wrong thing then don't come on here making yourself look like a classic "P minus, G Plus" Captain, just discretely discuss it with your training department.
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Quote...Also LEM , if you are not happy with the habits of your co-pilots and you feel that what they are doing is the wrong thing
I dont think he said wrong,he said "strange"..........but then I would agree LEM,you just might be a little picky here mate.....unless your training dept specifically prohibits it...then maybe you should be a little more accomodating......different strokes for different folks......as Captain,upon seeing/hearing or referencing any abnormalties......its your Aircraft,the moment you say it is
I have F/O,s/Co-Captains...turn the autopilot on @ 100ft,or hand fly it through 10,000,then turn it on.......I have some, including myself,hand fly an approach in VFR,with autopilot,FD,autothrust all off for practice,,,,,,its not prohitied or not reccomended.....automation is great,but if these systems decide to take a holiday.......
The one thing I find a little strange(not wrong) for both(as a jumpseater) are those who are unwilling to turn off the autothrust and practice something they used to do before getting into a jet ......
I dont think he said wrong,he said "strange"..........but then I would agree LEM,you just might be a little picky here mate.....unless your training dept specifically prohibits it...then maybe you should be a little more accomodating......different strokes for different folks......as Captain,upon seeing/hearing or referencing any abnormalties......its your Aircraft,the moment you say it is
I have F/O,s/Co-Captains...turn the autopilot on @ 100ft,or hand fly it through 10,000,then turn it on.......I have some, including myself,hand fly an approach in VFR,with autopilot,FD,autothrust all off for practice,,,,,,its not prohitied or not reccomended.....automation is great,but if these systems decide to take a holiday.......
The one thing I find a little strange(not wrong) for both(as a jumpseater) are those who are unwilling to turn off the autothrust and practice something they used to do before getting into a jet ......
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Don't get me wrong here; I have no multicrew experience nor have I ever flown anything heavier than a Seminole, but I have flown with probably 50 different students as a FI - and here's my two cents:
There is what you must do, and what you may do. You must follow SOP and you must comply with manufacturer's procedures, and you must follow regulations. You may listen to the tips and tricks of your captain. You may choose to implement it, parts of it, or refuse it, for various reasons. Not listening to your intro-lesson-student, your 200-hr-young-copilot, or your company chief flight, may make you feel better about yourself, but chances are that neither of you are completely right.
Really, if I could be right only 55% of the time, I could be a stock broker, earn millions a day, and buy aviation as a whole, and decide what is right and wrong. So how many of us are right about most of what we say?
There is what you must do, and what you may do. You must follow SOP and you must comply with manufacturer's procedures, and you must follow regulations. You may listen to the tips and tricks of your captain. You may choose to implement it, parts of it, or refuse it, for various reasons. Not listening to your intro-lesson-student, your 200-hr-young-copilot, or your company chief flight, may make you feel better about yourself, but chances are that neither of you are completely right.
Really, if I could be right only 55% of the time, I could be a stock broker, earn millions a day, and buy aviation as a whole, and decide what is right and wrong. So how many of us are right about most of what we say?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Personal opinion but I think keeping hands on the throttles during the climb up to 3000 feet without the auto throttle selected on and engaged is positively dangerous.
Hit a lump of turbulence and the nose goes up, the speed drops off, inadvertent movement of the arm and the throttles close, next thing you know you are in stick-shake territory. At least in descent the attitude is on your side and you are possibly making minor adjustments all the time anyway.
Hit a lump of turbulence and the nose goes up, the speed drops off, inadvertent movement of the arm and the throttles close, next thing you know you are in stick-shake territory. At least in descent the attitude is on your side and you are possibly making minor adjustments all the time anyway.
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Don't forget the "get out of jail" card (for those who operate under JAR-OPS 1) - JAR-OPS 1.085(g)
and in the UK, ANO article 77 -
In extremis, a captain can do whatever he considers best and you'd better obey.
(g) The commander or the pilot to whom
conduct of the flight has been delegated shall, in an
emergency situation that requires immediate decision
and action, take any action he considers necessary
under the circumstances. In such cases he may deviate
from rules, operational procedures and methods in the
interest of safety
conduct of the flight has been delegated shall, in an
emergency situation that requires immediate decision
and action, take any action he considers necessary
under the circumstances. In such cases he may deviate
from rules, operational procedures and methods in the
interest of safety
and in the UK, ANO article 77 -
Authority of commander of an aircraft
77 Every person in an aircraft shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or property carried therein, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation.
77 Every person in an aircraft shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or property carried therein, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation.
Although the airlines have probably come a long way from "Just shut up and learn, boy!", I do have one question....
Doesn't anyone teach these kids HOW TO FLY anymore?
Slavish concern about FDs and when to fly with both hands and when to fly with hand on throttles is of less concern than FLYING THE AEROPLANE!!
Back to basics might help a lot of people. A few take-offs with no FD, no AP and just raw VOR might sort out a few folk. There are some co-piglets who've probably never hand flown the aircraft above 1500ft...
I recall a TV programme where each candidate had to fly an aeroplane of some type or other - the winner got to fly a historic military aeroplane. One of the worst candidates was an airline co-pilot - he simply didn't have any basic stick-and-rudder skills worth a damn. No toys, no autopilot and he was like a fish out of water.
And now the MPL is looming......
Doesn't anyone teach these kids HOW TO FLY anymore?
Slavish concern about FDs and when to fly with both hands and when to fly with hand on throttles is of less concern than FLYING THE AEROPLANE!!
Back to basics might help a lot of people. A few take-offs with no FD, no AP and just raw VOR might sort out a few folk. There are some co-piglets who've probably never hand flown the aircraft above 1500ft...
I recall a TV programme where each candidate had to fly an aeroplane of some type or other - the winner got to fly a historic military aeroplane. One of the worst candidates was an airline co-pilot - he simply didn't have any basic stick-and-rudder skills worth a damn. No toys, no autopilot and he was like a fish out of water.
And now the MPL is looming......
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Not with me.
I'm notoriously the one who does most, and ecourages to do most, raw data manual flying in the company.
That's also why, if you don't want to follow the flight director, I say just switch it off!
I'm notoriously the one who does most, and ecourages to do most, raw data manual flying in the company.
That's also why, if you don't want to follow the flight director, I say just switch it off!