Is contaminated bleed air harmful? YES...
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JW411, Some good points well made.
Dolly, ditto.
Hamble boys, I think that someone from BALPA other than Mr Alder ought to make at least some sort of statement, or are they quietly endorsing all that Mr Alder says?
Dolly, ditto.
Hamble boys, I think that someone from BALPA other than Mr Alder ought to make at least some sort of statement, or are they quietly endorsing all that Mr Alder says?
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In no particular order, the words, Fence, On, Sitting and The, spring to mind.
BALPA, Pull your fingers out of your collectives!!!
Surely MA is not the only voice??
What has happened to the committee set up to deal with this particular problem within BALPA?
BALPA, Pull your fingers out of your collectives!!!
Surely MA is not the only voice??
What has happened to the committee set up to deal with this particular problem within BALPA?
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I flew with a well known British carrier from Southampton to Bergerac on one of their 146 jets for a long weekend break, and on both flights there was a definate wiff of 'smelly socks' that has been discussed.
I had a bit of a light head, especially on the return journey during the desent where there was a more definate wiff ... pong.
The same thing happened with I flew last month from Istanbul to Heathrow on a 757 jet, but didn't notice this on the outward journey from Heathrow, only on the return about 30 miutes before landing.
Is nothing being done about this, how do these air crews work in these conditions? In the six flights I have taken this year, there has been three flights that I would say I have noticed this. Any other 'passengers' out there find the same problems?
Ian W
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I had a bit of a light head, especially on the return journey during the desent where there was a more definate wiff ... pong.
The same thing happened with I flew last month from Istanbul to Heathrow on a 757 jet, but didn't notice this on the outward journey from Heathrow, only on the return about 30 miutes before landing.
Is nothing being done about this, how do these air crews work in these conditions? In the six flights I have taken this year, there has been three flights that I would say I have noticed this. Any other 'passengers' out there find the same problems?
Ian W
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Ian
The Dirty Socks smell will be the pyrolisis products of the engine oil that contain the organophosphate TCP that is NEURO TOXIC.
I am sure the airline in question offered you medical support! NOT!!
Sadly, the CAA DON'T CARE.
If you want a real laugh read the propoganda paper on Air Quality from 2004 from their website.
WHAT ALOT OF BULL!!
Don't forget the CAA is 100% funded by industry!!
If I was you I would do what crews should do SUE THE AIRLINE!
Tony
The Dirty Socks smell will be the pyrolisis products of the engine oil that contain the organophosphate TCP that is NEURO TOXIC.
I am sure the airline in question offered you medical support! NOT!!
Sadly, the CAA DON'T CARE.
If you want a real laugh read the propoganda paper on Air Quality from 2004 from their website.
WHAT ALOT OF BULL!!
Don't forget the CAA is 100% funded by industry!!
If I was you I would do what crews should do SUE THE AIRLINE!
Tony
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Last week I was returning to London from southern France.
The Skip lined up the 73-800 and we were cleared for t/o. The skip spooled up the engines, we set the t/o thrust, and about 85 kts we got a disgusting smell similar to rotten eggs. At this point the aircraft is just slightly pressurising.
Nothing was said in the t/o role. Last night's Madras could have been taking it's toll on one of us.
Anyway we had just started the climb and the initial turn on the departure through 2500ft and the cabin crew ding us as they have had a very strong smell throughout the whole aircraft.
There were no birds on the roll, and we checked the engine indications. The smell disappeared and everything looked normal so we returned to London without a problem and had engineering meet us on stand and check everything.
We came to the assumption that it was a fume event. The engineer didn't want anything put in the tech log and said he would check it out. Obviously nothing heard since.
Apart from a company memo from Boeing that overfilling of the hydraulic reservoirs can lead to fluid ingestion into the air con system.
All a bit on the dodgy side.
The Skip lined up the 73-800 and we were cleared for t/o. The skip spooled up the engines, we set the t/o thrust, and about 85 kts we got a disgusting smell similar to rotten eggs. At this point the aircraft is just slightly pressurising.
Nothing was said in the t/o role. Last night's Madras could have been taking it's toll on one of us.
Anyway we had just started the climb and the initial turn on the departure through 2500ft and the cabin crew ding us as they have had a very strong smell throughout the whole aircraft.
There were no birds on the roll, and we checked the engine indications. The smell disappeared and everything looked normal so we returned to London without a problem and had engineering meet us on stand and check everything.
We came to the assumption that it was a fume event. The engineer didn't want anything put in the tech log and said he would check it out. Obviously nothing heard since.
Apart from a company memo from Boeing that overfilling of the hydraulic reservoirs can lead to fluid ingestion into the air con system.
All a bit on the dodgy side.
www.aopis.org
(Aviation Organophoshate Information Site)
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ALIBABA
In Australia alone we have had 37 reports of what you describe reported to us from 737-800 crews.
We recommend such defects are always written up and oxygen used when the air is contaminated or you suspect it is contaminated as per common sense & checklist requirements.
We are well aware of the reluctance of crews to write up fume events but call on all pilots, engineers and cabin flight attendants to get fume events written up.
Only by reporting all defects can we progress these serious health and safety issues.
PLEASE REPORT ALL FUME EVENTS IN THE AIRCRAFT TECHNICAL LOG REGARDLESS OF DURATION.
AOPIS
WWW.AOPIS.ORG
In Australia alone we have had 37 reports of what you describe reported to us from 737-800 crews.
We recommend such defects are always written up and oxygen used when the air is contaminated or you suspect it is contaminated as per common sense & checklist requirements.
We are well aware of the reluctance of crews to write up fume events but call on all pilots, engineers and cabin flight attendants to get fume events written up.
Only by reporting all defects can we progress these serious health and safety issues.
PLEASE REPORT ALL FUME EVENTS IN THE AIRCRAFT TECHNICAL LOG REGARDLESS OF DURATION.
AOPIS
WWW.AOPIS.ORG
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Bloody BALPA?
BALPA is made up of pilots and is controlled by pilots. As we all know only too well, pilots - whether BALPA members or not - have lots of opinions on lots of issues. Usually these opinions are different from each other. Sometimes they are the same and when this happens, all involved need to sit down with a medicinal drink in order to cope with the shock.
Any opinion shared on this forum by (someone purporting to be) a senior member of BALPA will be different to the opinions of other members of BALPA.
The driving force behind this issue is another senior member of BALPA.
"What's BALPA doing about contaminated air?" Plenty. Thank goodness and they have my confidence.
BALPA is made up of pilots and is controlled by pilots. As we all know only too well, pilots - whether BALPA members or not - have lots of opinions on lots of issues. Usually these opinions are different from each other. Sometimes they are the same and when this happens, all involved need to sit down with a medicinal drink in order to cope with the shock.
Any opinion shared on this forum by (someone purporting to be) a senior member of BALPA will be different to the opinions of other members of BALPA.
The driving force behind this issue is another senior member of BALPA.
"What's BALPA doing about contaminated air?" Plenty. Thank goodness and they have my confidence.
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Word has it that FlyBe have lost nearly 100 crews from their 4 engined gas chambers better known as the British Aerospace BAe 146.
Well done boys and girls!
If the company and the CAA will do nothing then walk with your feet but sadly the flight attendants and passengers just get gassed some more.
Does the 100th to go get a free bottle of Champagne ?
A mate of mine used to get gassed in Dan Air days and here we are 25+ years later and still it goes on.
Well done boys and girls!
If the company and the CAA will do nothing then walk with your feet but sadly the flight attendants and passengers just get gassed some more.
Does the 100th to go get a free bottle of Champagne ?
A mate of mine used to get gassed in Dan Air days and here we are 25+ years later and still it goes on.
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What are my rights as a passenger to cancel my reservation off one of these British Aero 146 'gas chambers' in the light of what is happening, or am I to get the usual dribble of no refunds and no changes from the airline. What concerns me is nothing seems to being done, and the problem seems to be more wide spread that what was briefly said in the papers a few weeks ago, are the papers keeping in with the airlines because of their advertising contracts, are the papers afraid of loosing their contracts with them if the public is made fully aware of the health issues? I've notice some expensive looking adverts in the different nationals. Where is the best place to sit on the plane that has the 'freshest' air, or is all contaminated once airbourne. I am beginning to think that flying from my local airport is not always the best choice, and maybe I should be looking at other aircraft types to fly on. What aircraft is the healthest to fly on?
Ian W
Ian W
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AOPIS
I totally agree with you in relation to reporting the issue in the tech log. I would have no question in putting it in. That is not my decision of what to put in the tech log though.
But you have to think of the consequences of what will happen to the aeroplane and if it would need to be grounded? The effect on other crew's health etc etc. It is a weighing up exercise.
With referance to oxygen useage and starting to go into the "AIR CONDITIONING SMOKE/ FUMES" checklist. Well I think that is overkill. We talked about it but thought it would be slightly extreme. If you look at the start of the checklist it says to switch recirculation fans OFF. That would compound the situation. Also messing with the isolation valve and packs is not going to help as the aircraft still needs to be pressurised. After that we start talking about removal checks. Slightly extreme.
I seen the cd balpa gave out and this is my first encounter of this problem. For what it is worth I now know that there is a problem and that it needs looking at seriouslly.
I totally agree with you in relation to reporting the issue in the tech log. I would have no question in putting it in. That is not my decision of what to put in the tech log though.
But you have to think of the consequences of what will happen to the aeroplane and if it would need to be grounded? The effect on other crew's health etc etc. It is a weighing up exercise.
With referance to oxygen useage and starting to go into the "AIR CONDITIONING SMOKE/ FUMES" checklist. Well I think that is overkill. We talked about it but thought it would be slightly extreme. If you look at the start of the checklist it says to switch recirculation fans OFF. That would compound the situation. Also messing with the isolation valve and packs is not going to help as the aircraft still needs to be pressurised. After that we start talking about removal checks. Slightly extreme.
I seen the cd balpa gave out and this is my first encounter of this problem. For what it is worth I now know that there is a problem and that it needs looking at seriouslly.
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I belive that Paul Tyler, MP Labour,who opened the "Contaminated Air Protection " Conference in London just recently, has just been elected to the House Of Lords.
This is Excellent News considering his recent work and campaigning on Organophosphates issues.
Roll on the next House of Lords Enquiry I say!
This is Excellent News considering his recent work and campaigning on Organophosphates issues.
Roll on the next House of Lords Enquiry I say!
www.aopis.org
(Aviation Organophoshate Information Site)
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Dear ALIBABA and crews
Over the years crews have failed to take contaminated air events seriously. This has led to low level contaminated air exposures generally seen as a normal working environment.
THIS IS WRONG
All crews must start to log ALL fume events and use oxygen to protect their health and the the safety of the aircraft regardless of duration or severity of the event. Too many crews in the past accepted low level exposures as normal and are sick today.
CREWS MUST USE OXYGEN REGARDLESS OF DURATION OF THE EVENT
This was made very clear in the UK House of Commons in 2004:
Official Report (Commons Hansard), Vol.428, Col. 420W, Tuesday 7th December 2004
Air Passengers (Chemical Exposure)
Mr. Tyler: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether UK airline captains experiencing cockpit or cabin air contamination event serious enough for pilots to use emergency oxygen have a responsibility to inform passengers to which chemicals they might have been exposed. [202745]
Charlotte Atkins: Pilots are required to use oxygen as a precautionary measure in all cases of suspected cockpit air abnormalities irrespective of severity of event. Flight crew are not professionally qualified to verify the cause of air contamination or identify what chemicals if any, passengers may have been exposed to. The captain has discretion to inform passengers of an event.
If you do not report fume events, it does not allow the appropriate engineering work to be done and puts the health of your work colleagues and passengers potentially at risk.
REPORT ALL FUME EVENTS TO YOUR EMPLOYER, UNION AND REMEMBER THE FINDINGS OF THE RECENT BALPA CONFERENCE:
CREWS ARE GETTING SICK.
AOPIS
www.aopis.org
Over the years crews have failed to take contaminated air events seriously. This has led to low level contaminated air exposures generally seen as a normal working environment.
THIS IS WRONG
All crews must start to log ALL fume events and use oxygen to protect their health and the the safety of the aircraft regardless of duration or severity of the event. Too many crews in the past accepted low level exposures as normal and are sick today.
CREWS MUST USE OXYGEN REGARDLESS OF DURATION OF THE EVENT
This was made very clear in the UK House of Commons in 2004:
Official Report (Commons Hansard), Vol.428, Col. 420W, Tuesday 7th December 2004
Air Passengers (Chemical Exposure)
Mr. Tyler: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether UK airline captains experiencing cockpit or cabin air contamination event serious enough for pilots to use emergency oxygen have a responsibility to inform passengers to which chemicals they might have been exposed. [202745]
Charlotte Atkins: Pilots are required to use oxygen as a precautionary measure in all cases of suspected cockpit air abnormalities irrespective of severity of event. Flight crew are not professionally qualified to verify the cause of air contamination or identify what chemicals if any, passengers may have been exposed to. The captain has discretion to inform passengers of an event.
If you do not report fume events, it does not allow the appropriate engineering work to be done and puts the health of your work colleagues and passengers potentially at risk.
REPORT ALL FUME EVENTS TO YOUR EMPLOYER, UNION AND REMEMBER THE FINDINGS OF THE RECENT BALPA CONFERENCE:
CREWS ARE GETTING SICK.
AOPIS
www.aopis.org
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I don't see why switching off the recirc fans would compound the problem - quite the opposite in fact as it will pump the contaminated air straight out of the a/c.
Who is AOPIS? Their site gives no details of the organisation. If I was a sceptic I might think that they are involved with the firms manufacturing filters. It seems that only the Australians and the Brits suffer from this problem - the pilot organisations in every other country don't think it's important enough to concern themselves about it. In fact, only a couple of airlines in the UK seem to have a problem. I've been flying 757's for years with no fume events.
If crewmembers are dropping like flies because of exposure to contaminants, where are the multi million pound settlements against the airlines and manufacturers for causing this?
If there is no proof, as I suspect, this thread is in the right place - the rumours section of a rumours site.
Who is AOPIS? Their site gives no details of the organisation. If I was a sceptic I might think that they are involved with the firms manufacturing filters. It seems that only the Australians and the Brits suffer from this problem - the pilot organisations in every other country don't think it's important enough to concern themselves about it. In fact, only a couple of airlines in the UK seem to have a problem. I've been flying 757's for years with no fume events.
If crewmembers are dropping like flies because of exposure to contaminants, where are the multi million pound settlements against the airlines and manufacturers for causing this?
If there is no proof, as I suspect, this thread is in the right place - the rumours section of a rumours site.
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Re-Circ does exactly that. Recirculates the already Contaminated Air, and not supplying anymore Fresh Air. The Flow rate is also stronger on the 146 unlike the Boeing in Re-Circ.
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Must comment on the comments posted by 'POM'.
POM you make 4 industry type comments:
1. Where are the multi million pound settlements against the airlines and manufacturers for causing this?
2. I've been flying 757's for years with no fume events.
3. If there is no proof, as I suspect, this thread is in the right place - the rumours section of a rumours site.
4. Who are AOPIS
COMMENT 1
Many cases are ongoing in court here in OZ but also in the UK and USA, but everyone here in Oz knows that Judy Cullinane got US$2 Million out of court settlement to not put forward the data she had. Also, what about the 50 plus workers compensation claims that have SUCCESFULLY found in the sick crew members favour here ? Most crews know nothing about the health implications and just accept things as a normal working environment but that is changing slowly and passengers, well, they are treated like baggage and told nothing. I was a cabin crew member on the 146 and 320 here in Perth and had hundreds of passengers with paper in front of their noses with fumes over the years and asking for head ache tablets such was the effect of the fumes.
When you have seen colleagues affected for life, then you will take it more seriously.
COMMENT 2
Maybe you haven't and thats great news but do you know what you are looking for? The 757 crews in the USA tell me that when they put the packs on after start they get a whiff on 75% of flights, even though it may be quite low in intensity, but its the low level exposure to these things that is the worry. They also tell me they never write it up as the industry has enough problems so of course their union will not know!! And I know what I am talking about as my brother-in-law is a United 757 pilot and he says they all know!
COMMENT 3
NO proof you say, well you are obviously not a BALPA member as they had a conference in April in London and invited ALL the world experts and concluded:
‘There is a workplace problem resulting in chronic and acute illness amongst flight crew (both pilots and cabin crew)’.
‘Further, we are concerned the passengers may also be suffering from similar symptoms to those exhibited by flight crew’.
‘This, we conclude, is resulting in significant flight safety issues, in addition to unacceptable flight crew personnel health implications’.
COMMENT 4
AOPIS is an Australian non profit group set up some 5 years ago and made up of over 700 affected crew members world wide. I am a member and I believe they have done more for this issue than all other unions put together. They made the DVD which is used by BALPA, the ITF and others in the UK and the RAAF and AFAP etc.. here in Oz along with many other unions. They get my vote.
Bet your brother is that Martin Alder guy!
POM you make 4 industry type comments:
1. Where are the multi million pound settlements against the airlines and manufacturers for causing this?
2. I've been flying 757's for years with no fume events.
3. If there is no proof, as I suspect, this thread is in the right place - the rumours section of a rumours site.
4. Who are AOPIS
COMMENT 1
Many cases are ongoing in court here in OZ but also in the UK and USA, but everyone here in Oz knows that Judy Cullinane got US$2 Million out of court settlement to not put forward the data she had. Also, what about the 50 plus workers compensation claims that have SUCCESFULLY found in the sick crew members favour here ? Most crews know nothing about the health implications and just accept things as a normal working environment but that is changing slowly and passengers, well, they are treated like baggage and told nothing. I was a cabin crew member on the 146 and 320 here in Perth and had hundreds of passengers with paper in front of their noses with fumes over the years and asking for head ache tablets such was the effect of the fumes.
When you have seen colleagues affected for life, then you will take it more seriously.
COMMENT 2
Maybe you haven't and thats great news but do you know what you are looking for? The 757 crews in the USA tell me that when they put the packs on after start they get a whiff on 75% of flights, even though it may be quite low in intensity, but its the low level exposure to these things that is the worry. They also tell me they never write it up as the industry has enough problems so of course their union will not know!! And I know what I am talking about as my brother-in-law is a United 757 pilot and he says they all know!
COMMENT 3
NO proof you say, well you are obviously not a BALPA member as they had a conference in April in London and invited ALL the world experts and concluded:
‘There is a workplace problem resulting in chronic and acute illness amongst flight crew (both pilots and cabin crew)’.
‘Further, we are concerned the passengers may also be suffering from similar symptoms to those exhibited by flight crew’.
‘This, we conclude, is resulting in significant flight safety issues, in addition to unacceptable flight crew personnel health implications’.
COMMENT 4
AOPIS is an Australian non profit group set up some 5 years ago and made up of over 700 affected crew members world wide. I am a member and I believe they have done more for this issue than all other unions put together. They made the DVD which is used by BALPA, the ITF and others in the UK and the RAAF and AFAP etc.. here in Oz along with many other unions. They get my vote.
Bet your brother is that Martin Alder guy!
NO proof you say, well you are obviously not a BALPA member as they had a conference in April in London and invited ALL the world experts and concluded:
‘There is a workplace problem resulting in chronic and acute illness amongst flight crew (both pilots and cabin crew)’.
‘Further, we are concerned the passengers may also be suffering from similar symptoms to those exhibited by flight crew’.
‘This, we conclude, is resulting in significant flight safety issues, in addition to unacceptable flight crew personnel health implications’.
‘There is a workplace problem resulting in chronic and acute illness amongst flight crew (both pilots and cabin crew)’.
‘Further, we are concerned the passengers may also be suffering from similar symptoms to those exhibited by flight crew’.
‘This, we conclude, is resulting in significant flight safety issues, in addition to unacceptable flight crew personnel health implications’.
Yes a conference was held and yes it was the opinion of the conference organizers that the conclusion above should apply and that's why they mostly invited folks with like opinions.
However there was no consensus at the conference even though the organizers tried in vain to convince all attendees of their pre ordained conclusions.
A little bit like the opening title of this thread which attempts to answer its own questions.
So after all these pages of discussions have you yet concluded that your case has not been made?
In the end, if you want something done, you have to convince all stakeholders of its viability.
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The above certainly may mislead the readers of this forum.
Yes a conference was held and yes it was the opinion of the conference organizers that the conclusion above should apply and that's why they mostly invited folks with like opinion
Yes a conference was held and yes it was the opinion of the conference organizers that the conclusion above should apply and that's why they mostly invited folks with like opinion
If you return to the original post of this thread you will see that representatives of all interested parties were invited to make a presentation at the conference.
Please get your facts correct before denegrating the people (BALPA, AOPIS and T&G) who are willing to give up time and money in the interests of flight and cabin crew.
Last edited by cabincrew47; 26th May 2005 at 07:20.
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Terraplane blues, I think you agree with me.
I am not an engineer, but common sense dictates that if the contamination is from the bleed air which is what air con is running on, making a higher flow is giving more fumes into the cabin.
The very point is that it is not fresh air you are putting into the cabin. By switching the recirc fans off, all you are doing is eliminating a possible source of smoke fumes and making a/c units go to high flow. It is this air that is contaminated. If you are trying to remove the smoke/ fumes you increase the ventilation rate by the outflow valve posistion.
Effectivelly depresurising the aircraft. A bit extreme. That was my point.
I am not an engineer, but common sense dictates that if the contamination is from the bleed air which is what air con is running on, making a higher flow is giving more fumes into the cabin.
The very point is that it is not fresh air you are putting into the cabin. By switching the recirc fans off, all you are doing is eliminating a possible source of smoke fumes and making a/c units go to high flow.
It is this air that is contaminated. If you are trying to remove the smoke/ fumes you increase the ventilation rate by the outflow valve posistion. Effectivelly depresurising the aircraft. A bit extreme. That was my point.
Last edited by alibaba; 30th May 2005 at 00:31.