Swiss downsize definite
ex-Tanker
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: Luton Beds UK
When I see what deep resentments there are here, I take my hat off who those people try to defuse the Middle East and Ireland
Extreme attitudes like that will get no-one anywhere.
Is it too late?
Extreme attitudes like that will get no-one anywhere.
Is it too late?
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 81
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From: Basel CH
Are you talking about the same threads where you stated that the SWISS Longhaoul fleet was way to big while ex-Crossair was just fine and profitable 
Tell me these skypointer, if the 50 seaters (49 for the E145) is already too big for the European market, then how much too big is the Airbus 320 for the European market ? Salut
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 269
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From: Embedded in a pocket of resistance
No Skypointer I have not run out of arguments and Iīm sure neither have you. Itīs just that we have said and heard them all before. Iīm sick of writing them down again. Do a search for our usernames and you will come up with my point of view.
For as far as the euro routes are concerned, I agree with S2000 Driver. Too lazy to write it out. If the Saab is too big, then the A320 must be huge (yield and load factor wise) , but strangely nobody even thinks about reducing the number of LuftBusses.
By the way, how well is Long Haul doing ? Nobody knows because Swiss refuses to reveal any relevant (YIELD !!) figures, and likes to concentrate on load figures. "Johannesburg and Rio have a load figures of bla bla bla percent !" Canīt wait to read the next Ernst & Young report on Swiss in a few years.
Letīs just accept that we donīt get along and that the SWISS īBiosphere projectī has failed. We will see what the future might (or might not) bring to us.
Who knows, maybe one day we will sit next to each other during a new job interview, or in the cockpit !
Ciao !
For as far as the euro routes are concerned, I agree with S2000 Driver. Too lazy to write it out. If the Saab is too big, then the A320 must be huge (yield and load factor wise) , but strangely nobody even thinks about reducing the number of LuftBusses.
By the way, how well is Long Haul doing ? Nobody knows because Swiss refuses to reveal any relevant (YIELD !!) figures, and likes to concentrate on load figures. "Johannesburg and Rio have a load figures of bla bla bla percent !" Canīt wait to read the next Ernst & Young report on Swiss in a few years.
Letīs just accept that we donīt get along and that the SWISS īBiosphere projectī has failed. We will see what the future might (or might not) bring to us.
Who knows, maybe one day we will sit next to each other during a new job interview, or in the cockpit !
Ciao !
Joined: Sep 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 343
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From: FACT
FAO Max Endurance
Apologies to others in the 2003 SR-LX bomb lobbing competition - makes the bitter stories I was told years after the BOAC-BEA merger seem tame in comparison - I can't send Max a private e-mail. So I have to put this here:
I did ask around and no one knew for sure, but the base feeling was that if you pay Swiss taxes, you get Swiss unemployment benefit. If you don't you won't. Einfach.
On my old Swissair payslip it said "UI Contribution 1.5%" which is now "Unemployment Insurance 1.25%" on the slip from the cowboys I presently work for. I presume you don't pay that as you reside in the EU?
Do check it out locally and wish you all the best. Cheers
I did ask around and no one knew for sure, but the base feeling was that if you pay Swiss taxes, you get Swiss unemployment benefit. If you don't you won't. Einfach.
On my old Swissair payslip it said "UI Contribution 1.5%" which is now "Unemployment Insurance 1.25%" on the slip from the cowboys I presently work for. I presume you don't pay that as you reside in the EU?
Do check it out locally and wish you all the best. Cheers
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 34
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From: Switserland
Hi Skypointer, you are a funny guy, HAHAHAHA !
Unfortunately you're stupid Swissair is dragging us under as well.
That's the real story now, this monster company with it's monster costs is taking us all down.
What a waist.
Unfortunately you're stupid Swissair is dragging us under as well.
That's the real story now, this monster company with it's monster costs is taking us all down.
What a waist.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 6
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From: Switzerland
Any dismiss will be done according seniority, this has been confirmed by the company. If they don't comply with this, they will face another court case!!
To SkyPointer:
It seems that you have no idea about the rules of a seniority!!
Position in the list is given by your entry date (31.03.2002) and your AGE !! so the older EX-SR pilot will be the first one after the very last CRX pilot.
CCP offered a zipper to Aeropers, unfortunately, this was turned down...
Aeropers must now face the legal way...
You also said SB20 pilots asked for the same salary as a MD11 !!!
Why a 319 pilot at Swiss has the same salary as a MD11 ??
SB20 should be paid as 319/320/321/ERJ145/BAE/MD80 European fleet
To SkyPointer:
It seems that you have no idea about the rules of a seniority!!
Position in the list is given by your entry date (31.03.2002) and your AGE !! so the older EX-SR pilot will be the first one after the very last CRX pilot.
CCP offered a zipper to Aeropers, unfortunately, this was turned down...
Aeropers must now face the legal way...
You also said SB20 pilots asked for the same salary as a MD11 !!!
Why a 319 pilot at Swiss has the same salary as a MD11 ??
SB20 should be paid as 319/320/321/ERJ145/BAE/MD80 European fleet
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: europe
BeerFly: your posting speaks for itself...
BlueSky: sure the dismissals will be according to seniorty - OC1 seniority that is. You seem not to have noticed yet that we have two seniority lists OC1 and OC2. And you as well seem to be unable to accept that it was CCP that turned down a common seniority list. They didn't even have the guts to present it to its members...
Saab 2000 Driver: If not enough passangers can be found for an Airbus, then it will surely be easy to fill a slow, narrow and noisy Saab - Especially if on the next stand is a Germanwings A320 or an Easy B737 that offers better comfort and a clean safety record for half the price! I'd recommend a reality check...
RV: You may be right that all was said between you and me before and I noticed long ago that you do not listen to my arguments. But I wanted to inform the eventual outsider reading this thread of some facts. The postings seemed a little onesided to me. I gave up trying to find any common ground with CCP members after the disaterous swiss culture course. It was quite clear there that CCP just wanted our jobs and our salaries and the only thing they expected us to do was to keep the planes (and therefore the company) in the air and give all our know-how away until we could be replaced by some ex-Crossair guy - who of course was instructed to fly an Airbus by a soon to be dismissed ex-Swissair instructor... Well, if you really believe this will work out for you: good luck.
Perhaps we'll meet once in a job intervew but we'll hardly be flying in the same cockpit - you obviously won't accept me as your captain and your dreams of you being mine will never come true either, sorry! Perhaps its better that way - for safety's sake...
BlueSky: sure the dismissals will be according to seniorty - OC1 seniority that is. You seem not to have noticed yet that we have two seniority lists OC1 and OC2. And you as well seem to be unable to accept that it was CCP that turned down a common seniority list. They didn't even have the guts to present it to its members...
Saab 2000 Driver: If not enough passangers can be found for an Airbus, then it will surely be easy to fill a slow, narrow and noisy Saab - Especially if on the next stand is a Germanwings A320 or an Easy B737 that offers better comfort and a clean safety record for half the price! I'd recommend a reality check...
RV: You may be right that all was said between you and me before and I noticed long ago that you do not listen to my arguments. But I wanted to inform the eventual outsider reading this thread of some facts. The postings seemed a little onesided to me. I gave up trying to find any common ground with CCP members after the disaterous swiss culture course. It was quite clear there that CCP just wanted our jobs and our salaries and the only thing they expected us to do was to keep the planes (and therefore the company) in the air and give all our know-how away until we could be replaced by some ex-Crossair guy - who of course was instructed to fly an Airbus by a soon to be dismissed ex-Swissair instructor... Well, if you really believe this will work out for you: good luck.
Perhaps we'll meet once in a job intervew but we'll hardly be flying in the same cockpit - you obviously won't accept me as your captain and your dreams of you being mine will never come true either, sorry! Perhaps its better that way - for safety's sake...
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 6
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From: Switzerland
There is 2 Seniority list.
OC2 Seniority list,LX pilots not included as they refused the BGAV and by the way we voted on it.
OC1 Seniority, valid since 1996 and stating that ANY pilot entering Crossair (Swiss) will join at the bottom...
The court already said how to fix our little problem legally and then they offered a compromise, a zipper. As this was rejected by Aeropers, we have now to follow the legal path. And remember, our contract was signed way before the brand new B-GAV.
SkyPointer, please answer this question :
Why wouldn't you accept a Zipper as a final solution??
OC2 Seniority list,LX pilots not included as they refused the BGAV and by the way we voted on it.
OC1 Seniority, valid since 1996 and stating that ANY pilot entering Crossair (Swiss) will join at the bottom...
The court already said how to fix our little problem legally and then they offered a compromise, a zipper. As this was rejected by Aeropers, we have now to follow the legal path. And remember, our contract was signed way before the brand new B-GAV.
SkyPointer, please answer this question :
Why wouldn't you accept a Zipper as a final solution??
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 14
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From: UK
If I read this correctly, SWISS are now in trouble and intend to cut cost by getting rid of a number of aircraft and hence pilots. Crossair pilots are of the opinion that the ex-Swissair pilots should be the ones to lose their jobs first, as they joined SWISS and in their opinion SWISS = Crossair! Problem is, the aircraft that SWISS will be getting rid of, are nearly all regional (Crossair), but never mind, even though this is supposedly a cost cutting exercise, the powers that be will agree with this CCP view, lay off the ex-Swissair pilots and retrain Crossair pilots (by ex-Swissair flight instructors) onto the now vacant seats on Airbus and MD11's. SURE! And pigs might fly too! With all the problems that have surfaced with the emergence of Swiss caused mainly by the intransigence of BOTH unions, I think the management will be only too glad to find a neat solution. What bets, that in the very near future, Switzerland again has a regional airline called Crossairand an international one called SWISS - operated by 100% ex-Swissair equipment and pilots.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 34
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From: Switserland
Quote : Saab 2000 Driver: If not enough passangers can be found for an Airbus, then it will surely be easy to fill a slow, narrow and noisy Saab - Especially if on the next stand is a Germanwings A320 or an Easy B737 that offers better comfort and a clean safety record for half the price! I'd recommend a reality check...
Skypointer you are a sick human being by again comming out with a safety record; don't forget the past mate. We'll be dragging some stories out of the dirt if you want.
By the way it's better to make money in a noisy and slow Saab and earn money on the route than doeng it with you Airbus and loosing money big-time.
Succer !
Skypointer you are a sick human being by again comming out with a safety record; don't forget the past mate. We'll be dragging some stories out of the dirt if you want.
By the way it's better to make money in a noisy and slow Saab and earn money on the route than doeng it with you Airbus and loosing money big-time.
Succer !
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 269
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From: Embedded in a pocket of resistance
Posted by Skypointer :
By automatically assuming that YOU would be the captain, you have once more illustrated the selfinflated ego of the average Swissair pilot !
Perhaps we'll meet once in a job intervew but we'll hardly be flying in the same cockpit - you obviously won't accept me as your captain and your dreams of you being mine will never come true either, sorry! Perhaps its better that way - for safety's sake...
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7
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From: Oil field #1
By the way gents
Ever noticed what keeps SWISS flying for the time being ?
Taxpayers money and 3rd party funding from industrial companies. What a great confidence they must have to see such a bunch of specific loosers in this forum fighting each other like maniacs on the very lowest level.
For those bloody idiots on both sides (OC1 and OC2), I would wish SWISS goes down the drain. You definitely need a cold shower and a wakeup call, guys ! I really wonder how psychos like you made it up to a flight deck job ??!
For the remainder workforce of SWISS, I wish all the best for a sustainable and healthy future.
Cheers
Ever noticed what keeps SWISS flying for the time being ?
Taxpayers money and 3rd party funding from industrial companies. What a great confidence they must have to see such a bunch of specific loosers in this forum fighting each other like maniacs on the very lowest level.
For those bloody idiots on both sides (OC1 and OC2), I would wish SWISS goes down the drain. You definitely need a cold shower and a wakeup call, guys ! I really wonder how psychos like you made it up to a flight deck job ??!
For the remainder workforce of SWISS, I wish all the best for a sustainable and healthy future.
Cheers
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
From: europe
The reality is Swiss will go down one way or the other. Then Switzerland will probably be able to sustain a smaller than former cross air regional airlines. Rason being; size of the country,cut throat competition, high oil price, uncertainty of war and on going fight among the pilots.
Thank god I am out in time, wish good luck to the rest and hopefully job prospect will improve before unemployment benefit runs out.
Thank god I am out in time, wish good luck to the rest and hopefully job prospect will improve before unemployment benefit runs out.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 427
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From: where I shouldnt be
EL_CORRUPTO
Thank you for representing my proclivities to the point.
One constructive thought though. How about listing a total f/ATP time, regardless of where it was accumulated, regard that time as experience relevant to the company and dismiss on these premises those with the lowest time at hand?
All parties involved can save face and perhaps to some extend the company can rely on those pilots with most time under their belt.
Thank you for representing my proclivities to the point.
One constructive thought though. How about listing a total f/ATP time, regardless of where it was accumulated, regard that time as experience relevant to the company and dismiss on these premises those with the lowest time at hand?
All parties involved can save face and perhaps to some extend the company can rely on those pilots with most time under their belt.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2
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From: blm/90/5
swiss lay offs
Why oh why is it, that our dear management is downsizing in the regional fleet?
Other airlines are using the smaller aircraft more instead off the bigger planes,
KLM announced a few days ago to fly more with the small fleet....due to this economic recesion.
In the states all regionals are booming while the big mother companies are strugling.....
The main problem of our company is the overhead, its way to big !
Start with that and you'l save money.
Other problem is aiming at passengers willing to pay more for more service at a luxury airline........in days when things economically are going really bad.............people want to save money.....!!!!
So they rather fly with easy jet or whatever.
But not the expensive SWISS
MAX
ps DGS i do as well pay 1.25% UI...thanx for info.
Other airlines are using the smaller aircraft more instead off the bigger planes,
KLM announced a few days ago to fly more with the small fleet....due to this economic recesion.
In the states all regionals are booming while the big mother companies are strugling.....
The main problem of our company is the overhead, its way to big !
Start with that and you'l save money.
Other problem is aiming at passengers willing to pay more for more service at a luxury airline........in days when things economically are going really bad.............people want to save money.....!!!!
So they rather fly with easy jet or whatever.
But not the expensive SWISS
MAX
ps DGS i do as well pay 1.25% UI...thanx for info.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
From: Embedded in a pocket of resistance
I donīt understand why some people try to hold the 2 pilot corps entirely responsible for the succes or failure of the whole company.
Sure, itīs important to have a stable and motivated workforce, but letīs not exagerate our role as pilots.
Most passengers (especially foreign pax) have absolutely NO idea about the labour dispute within Swiss, and even the Swiss passengers know very little about it. The only thing they read and hear in the media is that André Dosé is named Entrepreneur of the Year 2002
and that all is going perfectly according to the famous business plan.
All that passengers want is to get safely and comfortably from A to B for a reasonable price and have access to a large (where is the alliance Mr Dosé ? ) network with a good frequent flyer program.
The passengers pay our salaries and are the final judges about our product. So if the product is not very good (lotīs of complaints about inflight service and NO membership of an international alliance), connections are missed (ZRH is not a suitable airport for a hub: noise regulations + intersecting runways
) and the home market is small (Switzerland, need I say more), then an airline will lose customers and fail to make money. As pilots there is very little we can do about that. Simple as that !
Sure, itīs important to have a stable and motivated workforce, but letīs not exagerate our role as pilots.
Most passengers (especially foreign pax) have absolutely NO idea about the labour dispute within Swiss, and even the Swiss passengers know very little about it. The only thing they read and hear in the media is that André Dosé is named Entrepreneur of the Year 2002
and that all is going perfectly according to the famous business plan.All that passengers want is to get safely and comfortably from A to B for a reasonable price and have access to a large (where is the alliance Mr Dosé ?
) network with a good frequent flyer program.The passengers pay our salaries and are the final judges about our product. So if the product is not very good (lotīs of complaints about inflight service and NO membership of an international alliance), connections are missed (ZRH is not a suitable airport for a hub: noise regulations + intersecting runways
) and the home market is small (Switzerland, need I say more), then an airline will lose customers and fail to make money. As pilots there is very little we can do about that. Simple as that !
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: europe
For once I agree with you RV. The passengers will be the final judges. Even if the two corps would be the best buddies it wouldn't safe a economically doomed company - I don't say SWISS necessarily is one.
But a struggling company can get its final blow if costumers lose confidence in it due to the unreasonable behaviour of a pilot union. And CCP's deeds and statments certainly won't enhance our passengers confidence that they are folwn by competent and responsible pilots....
What a great piece of generalization! Congratulations, you should become a psychiatrist. I just said I prefere not to be your Copilot - I have my reasons which are not based on seniority! But by getting pissed at the implication that I might be your Captain you prove that you thought it would be the other way 'round. Now what does that tell us about your ego? Oops!
BeerFly: Soccer? No thanks I prefere Icehockey! Or did you mean something else? Beer before flightduty is not a good idea and neither is beer before writing...
Sure, BlueSky, fair question. Its no fair solution, because CRX wasn't restrucured before entering SWISS, while the SR part was. We have dismissed 400 pilots because we were to big. You have dismissed none so far. But it was clear form the start that you have been to big too - after all your CRX was blown up by the same megalomaniac Bruggi/MS/SAirLines management. So why should we pay for the CRX mistakes while you profit from them? Furthermore a SR Captain with some 15 years SR seniority as a Copliot of a CRX F/O - now SWISS Zipper-Captain - of some 3 or 4 years CRX seniority wouldn't be a good idea either (except for CCP of course). The zipper can be no solution!
So is two corps a better solution? Hardly! As you have seen with the Charter A320's this leaves to much open questions in case of the phase in/out of Aircraft. The next problem will arise with the new Embraer if sombody decides they will replace the A319. Two companies? Won't solve the last problem either - just some stupid court roulings...
I never said it was easy and I can understand your fears that you'll have to pay for further reduction in the longhaul sector. What we need is to get the unions talking again - or for the first time. They have to find a solution. Unfortunately CCP chose to embark on pure obstruction instead! This politics, if continued, actually just leaves the question if CCP, in the course of its selfdistruciton, kills SWISS as well.
But a struggling company can get its final blow if costumers lose confidence in it due to the unreasonable behaviour of a pilot union. And CCP's deeds and statments certainly won't enhance our passengers confidence that they are folwn by competent and responsible pilots....
By automatically assuming that YOU would be the captain, you have once more illustrated the selfinflated ego of the average Swissair pilot !
BeerFly: Soccer? No thanks I prefere Icehockey! Or did you mean something else? Beer before flightduty is not a good idea and neither is beer before writing...
SkyPointer, please answer this question : Why wouldn't you accept a Zipper as a final solution??
So is two corps a better solution? Hardly! As you have seen with the Charter A320's this leaves to much open questions in case of the phase in/out of Aircraft. The next problem will arise with the new Embraer if sombody decides they will replace the A319. Two companies? Won't solve the last problem either - just some stupid court roulings...
I never said it was easy and I can understand your fears that you'll have to pay for further reduction in the longhaul sector. What we need is to get the unions talking again - or for the first time. They have to find a solution. Unfortunately CCP chose to embark on pure obstruction instead! This politics, if continued, actually just leaves the question if CCP, in the course of its selfdistruciton, kills SWISS as well.