View Poll Results: I think Merv G should.........
Resign immediately !
69
49.64%
be disciplined and fined by amount equal to costs of his letters.
28
20.14%
be disciplined but not fined.
13
9.35%
continue without being disciplined.
29
20.86%
Voters: 139. This poll is closed
What to do about MERV ?- POLL ONLY Please.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What to do about MERV ?- POLL ONLY Please.
Very simply what do BALPA members think should happen to Merv Granshaw given his recent unapologetic and arrogant actions in the lead up to the General Secretary Elections. Please continue to post Chris Darke Election comments on the other thread so as not to fragment the issue. Use this thread as a consensus only.
If you vote for "Resign Immediately !" and would like to support such an action please send an Email to Please Resign MERV . Anonymous support is still appreciated, and named BALPA members supports even moreso. All email addresses will be kept confidential. This email petition list will be open until the 1stJune at which time the numbers(not email addresses) supporting such an action will be forwarded to the BALPA head Office. Feel free to pass this on to other BALPA members not pprune readers.
Thank-you.
If you vote for "Resign Immediately !" and would like to support such an action please send an Email to Please Resign MERV . Anonymous support is still appreciated, and named BALPA members supports even moreso. All email addresses will be kept confidential. This email petition list will be open until the 1stJune at which time the numbers(not email addresses) supporting such an action will be forwarded to the BALPA head Office. Feel free to pass this on to other BALPA members not pprune readers.
Thank-you.
Last edited by airrage; 3rd May 2002 at 11:49.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I wasn't a pilot and read this drivel board I would have to wonder about the intelligence level of some of the people who sit at the front of the aeroplane. I would like to ask Capt Pprune if there is any moderation of the subject to be included in a poll. If not then I would suggest there should be because this one does not justify the bandwidth it uses ! If there isn't then I propose to take a vote on those of us who feel airrage is a w....r ! Sorry to use such language but this is going from the sublime to the ridiculous.
airrage - since you clearly have a lot to say - please show us you have the bollocks to let us know what your real name is and the company you work for - I guess that might be Bloody Awful (BA) airways ! It is time for you to come out of hiding you coward.
airrage - since you clearly have a lot to say - please show us you have the bollocks to let us know what your real name is and the company you work for - I guess that might be Bloody Awful (BA) airways ! It is time for you to come out of hiding you coward.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What can be more democratic than a POLL unable to be tampered with by myself, that is on a public forum(free for all to be heard) and automatically only allows people to vote once. A Slightly better democratic process than the General Secretary Elections currently being run by BALPA whereby only the incumbents mate can use the Associations money and members address database to send out letters in his support. Then use their own lawyers to say an irregularity that could affect the Ballot results never occurred.
The internet is a great democratic communication tool that allows individuals and injustices to be heard . Unions are about collating and representing the will of the majority of it's member's and the internet can be used just as effectively for the same purpose, for example when a union leader forgets the fundamental principle of his employment. A modern union should grow stronger if they realise how the internet can be used to cheaply(cheaper than recent letters we have received) access opinions and communciate in real-time about up to the minute issues.
Of course this isn't such good news if you'd prefer the old way of doing business and don't want to rock the boat(or was it a yacht?).
Fuzzy No need in getting upset........just use your vote and we'll see what the results are on the 1st of June. As for your comment, "If I wasn't a pilot and read this drivel board I would have to wonder about the intelligence level of some of the people who sit at the front of the aeroplane". I would be more worried about someone flying a plane who uses your threatening aggressive tone and language rather than someone who wants to run a democratic POLL.
The internet is a great democratic communication tool that allows individuals and injustices to be heard . Unions are about collating and representing the will of the majority of it's member's and the internet can be used just as effectively for the same purpose, for example when a union leader forgets the fundamental principle of his employment. A modern union should grow stronger if they realise how the internet can be used to cheaply(cheaper than recent letters we have received) access opinions and communciate in real-time about up to the minute issues.
Of course this isn't such good news if you'd prefer the old way of doing business and don't want to rock the boat(or was it a yacht?).
Fuzzy No need in getting upset........just use your vote and we'll see what the results are on the 1st of June. As for your comment, "If I wasn't a pilot and read this drivel board I would have to wonder about the intelligence level of some of the people who sit at the front of the aeroplane". I would be more worried about someone flying a plane who uses your threatening aggressive tone and language rather than someone who wants to run a democratic POLL.
Last edited by airrage; 4th May 2002 at 11:50.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Deep South (Sussex)
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You claim to want to run a "democratic Poll".
What a totally ridiculous notion when you remain anonymous, your voters are anonymous and can vote as many times as they can think of nom-de-plumes, there is no independent verification of the methodology, count, qualification to vote etc etc etc.
What a totally ridiculous notion when you remain anonymous, your voters are anonymous and can vote as many times as they can think of nom-de-plumes, there is no independent verification of the methodology, count, qualification to vote etc etc etc.
Last edited by Lou Scannon; 6th May 2002 at 10:44.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lou Scannon,
To vote more than once, a member would have to;
1. Clear their computer of pprune cookies.(2minutes)
2. Register for a new email, say a hotmail account.(5minutes)
3. Register with pprune using new email.(5minutes)
4. Await pprune password.(? minutes)
5. Log-in to pprune with new password goto the POLL and vote again.(3minutes)
So you are looking at a minimum of say 15minutes plus whatever waiting period for pprune to issue a new password to a new user for each bogus vote someone wants to register. If I was to have made all 73 votes made to date(within 24hours), it would have taken me 18.25 hours to do.
Lou.....please feel free to go ahead and vote as many times as you wish on this POLL.
To vote more than once, a member would have to;
1. Clear their computer of pprune cookies.(2minutes)
2. Register for a new email, say a hotmail account.(5minutes)
3. Register with pprune using new email.(5minutes)
4. Await pprune password.(? minutes)
5. Log-in to pprune with new password goto the POLL and vote again.(3minutes)
So you are looking at a minimum of say 15minutes plus whatever waiting period for pprune to issue a new password to a new user for each bogus vote someone wants to register. If I was to have made all 73 votes made to date(within 24hours), it would have taken me 18.25 hours to do.
Lou.....please feel free to go ahead and vote as many times as you wish on this POLL.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Deep South (Sussex)
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry it takes so long for you to fiddle the results. Perhaps Captain Pprune could change the system to make it up to you.
You could always threaten to hold another absurd "poll" to have him fired if he doesn't agree with you!
The only poll that you are in line to win is the "Electoral Reform Society award for the most absurdly organised election of the Year."
...but I guess that you have never heard of the accredited system for voting in this country!
You could always threaten to hold another absurd "poll" to have him fired if he doesn't agree with you!
The only poll that you are in line to win is the "Electoral Reform Society award for the most absurdly organised election of the Year."
...but I guess that you have never heard of the accredited system for voting in this country!
Last edited by Lou Scannon; 6th May 2002 at 10:55.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lou,
I think you are starting to lose the plot. I was merely responding to your statement criticising the results of this POLL. To refresh your memory you said;
"your voters can vote as many times as they can think of nom-de-plumes "
by showing you how ludicrous it would be practically(timewise) to try and fix this POLL.
I would rather not continue down the path of personal mud-slinging. Perhaps I could e-mail you a help-line number for an anger management therapy group?
I think you are starting to lose the plot. I was merely responding to your statement criticising the results of this POLL. To refresh your memory you said;
"your voters can vote as many times as they can think of nom-de-plumes "
by showing you how ludicrous it would be practically(timewise) to try and fix this POLL.
I would rather not continue down the path of personal mud-slinging. Perhaps I could e-mail you a help-line number for an anger management therapy group?
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Deep South (Sussex)
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks, airrage, but all I am trying to do is point out the absurdity of your claim that your ballot can be regarded as valid in any way.
Try addressing yourself to my statement regarding anonymous ballot originators, anonymous voters and anonymous scrutineers.
All of it can only lead to an anonymous result!
If we lived in one of the old communist states I could begin to sympathise with your aim and need for anonymity, but as we have full access to the democratic system, I cannot.
For what it's worth, I didn't vote for Chris Dark when he originally stood. I believed that anyone who supported communism, even after people like the Russian leaders had given it up, couldn't be too bright. However, we voted and he was elected so I respect that result.
"Merv" may have his faults including, to you, of being a non-BA pilot, but he was elected and I will respect that as well.
Start putting your real name on some nomination papers my friend!
Try addressing yourself to my statement regarding anonymous ballot originators, anonymous voters and anonymous scrutineers.
All of it can only lead to an anonymous result!
If we lived in one of the old communist states I could begin to sympathise with your aim and need for anonymity, but as we have full access to the democratic system, I cannot.
For what it's worth, I didn't vote for Chris Dark when he originally stood. I believed that anyone who supported communism, even after people like the Russian leaders had given it up, couldn't be too bright. However, we voted and he was elected so I respect that result.
"Merv" may have his faults including, to you, of being a non-BA pilot, but he was elected and I will respect that as well.
Start putting your real name on some nomination papers my friend!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lou you say;
"Merv" may have his faults including, to you, of being a non-BA pilot.'
You've lost me again, nowhere have I said anything like I didn't like MERV because he is a non-BA pilot. That one came right out of the blue, scary.
I am amused at your not voting for CD in the first place because he was a Communist. You weren't in charge of the McCarthy hearings in the US were you, that ran the dangerous people like Charlie Chaplin out of America?
As for remaining anonymous I don't see what my name has to do with the results, I'm not asking people to vote for me and I'm certainly not adding up the ballot results as they come in. See this is the age of computers and the POLL results are computed automatically. Maybe you're a DC-3 pilot?
Of course if you are trying to be threatening by demanding my name, well I don't think anyone intelligent enough to type would be that thick. Maybe MERV is typing this for you, we all know he can type?
As for those who vote, I couldn't care about their name either. If they are taking the time to vote however chances are they probably do know who MERV is or have read enough about him lately to not think warmly of his tactics.
Lou the POLL is not to be taken as gospel, MERV's not running for PM or anything. But I explained to you earlier how much time it would take for someone to vote more than once(15minutes per bogus vote) so I think we've ruled out someone wasting 24hours straight trying to rig these votes. That just leaves us to trust that Capt Pprune couldn't be interested enough to rig the election in either direction. I admit to not knowing Capt Pprune personally. But I commend him on his great forum and appreciate the time he must put in to maintain it probably means he cares little for our little POLL.
Lou this POLL is but a reflection of how people probably would vote given the chance to put their real names to paper nominations. It is using the modern wonder of the internet to judge the pulse of the people in real time and to send a clear message to those who don't understand that Cronyism has as much chance of surviving in the age of the Internet as Communism(just for you Lou).
If you're such good mates with MERV why don't you ask him to send all BALPA members a real ballot paper listing the choices above, then you would be happy with the results and MERV would get sent packing. That is one letter I wouldn't mind receiving from MERV.
Whilst we're on the subject of names, is your's really
Lou Scannon.......as in, sounds like "Loose Cannon" ? Coincedence ?HHHMMMMM, the plot thickens.
If you don't hear from me for a while it's because I've gone on holiday, unless Lou gets me first.....scary. At the very least, got to have a sense of humour.
"Merv" may have his faults including, to you, of being a non-BA pilot.'
You've lost me again, nowhere have I said anything like I didn't like MERV because he is a non-BA pilot. That one came right out of the blue, scary.
I am amused at your not voting for CD in the first place because he was a Communist. You weren't in charge of the McCarthy hearings in the US were you, that ran the dangerous people like Charlie Chaplin out of America?
As for remaining anonymous I don't see what my name has to do with the results, I'm not asking people to vote for me and I'm certainly not adding up the ballot results as they come in. See this is the age of computers and the POLL results are computed automatically. Maybe you're a DC-3 pilot?
Of course if you are trying to be threatening by demanding my name, well I don't think anyone intelligent enough to type would be that thick. Maybe MERV is typing this for you, we all know he can type?
As for those who vote, I couldn't care about their name either. If they are taking the time to vote however chances are they probably do know who MERV is or have read enough about him lately to not think warmly of his tactics.
Lou the POLL is not to be taken as gospel, MERV's not running for PM or anything. But I explained to you earlier how much time it would take for someone to vote more than once(15minutes per bogus vote) so I think we've ruled out someone wasting 24hours straight trying to rig these votes. That just leaves us to trust that Capt Pprune couldn't be interested enough to rig the election in either direction. I admit to not knowing Capt Pprune personally. But I commend him on his great forum and appreciate the time he must put in to maintain it probably means he cares little for our little POLL.
Lou this POLL is but a reflection of how people probably would vote given the chance to put their real names to paper nominations. It is using the modern wonder of the internet to judge the pulse of the people in real time and to send a clear message to those who don't understand that Cronyism has as much chance of surviving in the age of the Internet as Communism(just for you Lou).
If you're such good mates with MERV why don't you ask him to send all BALPA members a real ballot paper listing the choices above, then you would be happy with the results and MERV would get sent packing. That is one letter I wouldn't mind receiving from MERV.
Whilst we're on the subject of names, is your's really
Lou Scannon.......as in, sounds like "Loose Cannon" ? Coincedence ?HHHMMMMM, the plot thickens.
If you don't hear from me for a while it's because I've gone on holiday, unless Lou gets me first.....scary. At the very least, got to have a sense of humour.
Last edited by airrage; 7th May 2002 at 00:15.
Mistrust in Management
I am also annoyed that our chairman (MG) chose to spend approx £2000 of our money on postage of a letter to all members presenting (in my opinion) a biased view on the merits of our current Gen Sec.
Then, adding insult to injury, he spends a further £2000 on postage defending his actions.
In my view it is morally unacceptable to spend our money in such a way. I have lost my confidence in MG. I also believe that his action will have had the opposite effect to that which he desired in that many members, who were perhaps undecided, will now vote against CD.
Regards
Exeng
Then, adding insult to injury, he spends a further £2000 on postage defending his actions.
In my view it is morally unacceptable to spend our money in such a way. I have lost my confidence in MG. I also believe that his action will have had the opposite effect to that which he desired in that many members, who were perhaps undecided, will now vote against CD.
Regards
Exeng
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
FYI: Polls are only for trying to gague readers opinions and then they are only valid if the questions are very carefully thought out and presented so as not to give one question weight over another. Because of this and the fact that it is possible for someone with more than one ID to vote once with each ID it is not even a particularly accurate method of gagueing opinion unless there are more than say, 100 votes.
Anyone trying to use the poll system on PPRuNe to prove a point will not get very far and their credibility could be damaged if they believe the results reflect a fair opinion. In this case, it is only of interest to BALPA members anyway and of course there is nothing to stop anyone who is registered on PPRuNe to vote.
Please do not get into the habit of posting numerous polls without careful planning otherwise I will just have to remove the feature and we will just have to go back to discussing the merits or fault and debating the issues in the traditional manner.
Anyone trying to use the poll system on PPRuNe to prove a point will not get very far and their credibility could be damaged if they believe the results reflect a fair opinion. In this case, it is only of interest to BALPA members anyway and of course there is nothing to stop anyone who is registered on PPRuNe to vote.
Please do not get into the habit of posting numerous polls without careful planning otherwise I will just have to remove the feature and we will just have to go back to discussing the merits or fault and debating the issues in the traditional manner.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Eastern Seaboard
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For goodness sake, Lou, get a life.
You seem to be criticising the way that airrage MAKES his points, rather than the points themselves. In any decent debating society or courtroom, your comments would be disbarred, and you would be requested to address the point at issue.
You seem to disagree with airrage, but be unable to offer any cogent or logical argument to enhance your own viewpoint and counter his. This is a childish method - shout down those you disagree with, doesn't matter what you say as long as it scores points.
Let's get back on track:
1. CD is up for re-election. Merv supports him, as he is entitled to.
2. Merv uses BALPA resources to advertise his support of CD. This is considered marginally quasi legal by some, but then the legal advice, (funnily enough, employed by Merv and CD) says it is actually OK after all. Merv then uses more BALPA resources to tell us all. (I await Merv's re-election with great interest; I think he has single handedly increased membership interest in ALL elections
3. We all have to make our own minds up about whether CD is deserving of re-election. I DO think it suspect of anyone who allows their own salary to accelerate proportionately above those whose interests he is supposed to represent. This is more like a management practice than anything else.
4. And finally, the carefully suppressed manner in which the re-election was announced is enough to make me very suspicious. It stinks of pre-1980 Labour Party practice, smoke filled rooms, Tammany Hall politics and all that. It wouldn't matter if MY salary had increased at the same rate as CD's, but the opposite has happened.
As someone mentioned earlier though - when am I supposed to get my ballot paper?
I hope Lou will now not criticise ME for daring to use more than two sentences.
Roger Out!
You seem to be criticising the way that airrage MAKES his points, rather than the points themselves. In any decent debating society or courtroom, your comments would be disbarred, and you would be requested to address the point at issue.
You seem to disagree with airrage, but be unable to offer any cogent or logical argument to enhance your own viewpoint and counter his. This is a childish method - shout down those you disagree with, doesn't matter what you say as long as it scores points.
Let's get back on track:
1. CD is up for re-election. Merv supports him, as he is entitled to.
2. Merv uses BALPA resources to advertise his support of CD. This is considered marginally quasi legal by some, but then the legal advice, (funnily enough, employed by Merv and CD) says it is actually OK after all. Merv then uses more BALPA resources to tell us all. (I await Merv's re-election with great interest; I think he has single handedly increased membership interest in ALL elections
3. We all have to make our own minds up about whether CD is deserving of re-election. I DO think it suspect of anyone who allows their own salary to accelerate proportionately above those whose interests he is supposed to represent. This is more like a management practice than anything else.
4. And finally, the carefully suppressed manner in which the re-election was announced is enough to make me very suspicious. It stinks of pre-1980 Labour Party practice, smoke filled rooms, Tammany Hall politics and all that. It wouldn't matter if MY salary had increased at the same rate as CD's, but the opposite has happened.
As someone mentioned earlier though - when am I supposed to get my ballot paper?
I hope Lou will now not criticise ME for daring to use more than two sentences.
Roger Out!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airrage (with two r's)
You are getting very verbose again !
Agree with the Good Captain, polls have to be used carefully.
Having read JF's manifesto (you know the one that was probably a joint effort from "the gang of four"), I cannot believe how pathetic it is. The man is living in the past.
How about a poll along the lines of...
JF is a total tosser...Yes or No?
Wouldn't want a loaded ballot would we?
You are getting very verbose again !
Agree with the Good Captain, polls have to be used carefully.
Having read JF's manifesto (you know the one that was probably a joint effort from "the gang of four"), I cannot believe how pathetic it is. The man is living in the past.
How about a poll along the lines of...
JF is a total tosser...Yes or No?
Wouldn't want a loaded ballot would we?
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: England
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A Welshman who can't be objective. Why pathetic? Personally I can't find a syllable I don't agree with in it. Precisely WHAT do you find pathetic?
There are several people around, all apparently united in their determination to criticise anyone who objects to CD's record, or to Merv's behaviour. That's ok, but not the way they do it. I have seen not a single objective rebuttal of any of the criticisms of CD or Merv.
No "Of course CD is entitled to have his salary increase by far more than the people he represents. This is because he has a beard, and used to be a communist!
Or how about: Of course Merv can use OUR money to push out flyers supporting the incumbent. He can use even more to explain why he did it, and even more again because he needs to pay his legal team to confirm he did nothing wrong! This is ok because he thinks CD is a nice man!
Come on then, give me a reason! Give me your arguments, and your evidence of a successful two terms of office for good old Christopher "Dairy" Darke.
Nope out with the old, on the new. It'll be your turn next Merv!
There are several people around, all apparently united in their determination to criticise anyone who objects to CD's record, or to Merv's behaviour. That's ok, but not the way they do it. I have seen not a single objective rebuttal of any of the criticisms of CD or Merv.
No "Of course CD is entitled to have his salary increase by far more than the people he represents. This is because he has a beard, and used to be a communist!
Or how about: Of course Merv can use OUR money to push out flyers supporting the incumbent. He can use even more to explain why he did it, and even more again because he needs to pay his legal team to confirm he did nothing wrong! This is ok because he thinks CD is a nice man!
Come on then, give me a reason! Give me your arguments, and your evidence of a successful two terms of office for good old Christopher "Dairy" Darke.
Nope out with the old, on the new. It'll be your turn next Merv!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I defer to Capt Pprune's own words on this thread;
"FYI: Polls are only for trying to gague readers opinions and then they are only valid if the questions are very carefully thought out and presented so as not to give one question weight over another. Because of this and the fact that it is possible for someone with more than one ID to vote once with each ID it is not even a particularly accurate method of gagueing opinion unless there are more than say, 100 votes. "
Total votes to date 112.
I still can't believe people watse their time posting messages saying this POLL is non-legitimate, of course the results are not to be taken as gospel but just a glimpse of people's opinions who choose to vote and to make a quick counterjab at MG who fails to acknowledge a failure in judgement. It is also an attempt to make our union heads(whom we employ to SERVE and PROTECT) to finally realise that we cannot be taken for granted(I can assure you they have visited this site)and hopefully spur them into a more democractic (not autocratic) approach in ending the continual degrading terms and conditions of all us pilots. You are pilots afterall aren't you ? The fairness and quality of this POLL is a mockery of the democratic fairness with which our own GS Election has been run to date.
"FYI: Polls are only for trying to gague readers opinions and then they are only valid if the questions are very carefully thought out and presented so as not to give one question weight over another. Because of this and the fact that it is possible for someone with more than one ID to vote once with each ID it is not even a particularly accurate method of gagueing opinion unless there are more than say, 100 votes. "
Total votes to date 112.
I still can't believe people watse their time posting messages saying this POLL is non-legitimate, of course the results are not to be taken as gospel but just a glimpse of people's opinions who choose to vote and to make a quick counterjab at MG who fails to acknowledge a failure in judgement. It is also an attempt to make our union heads(whom we employ to SERVE and PROTECT) to finally realise that we cannot be taken for granted(I can assure you they have visited this site)and hopefully spur them into a more democractic (not autocratic) approach in ending the continual degrading terms and conditions of all us pilots. You are pilots afterall aren't you ? The fairness and quality of this POLL is a mockery of the democratic fairness with which our own GS Election has been run to date.
Last edited by airrage; 18th May 2002 at 23:33.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: u.k.
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airrage I think the poll, regardless of its status, has highlighted an issue which should be addressed. Is it constitutional to spend unoin members subscriptions this way? I will vote with my feet if CD &co get re-elected, why should the members support this flagrant waste of our funds, couldn't the canvassing have been done through the medium of the regular balpa periodical. I would rather have seen the money merv wasted being spent by the union supporting its members (esp those unemployed) instead of extolling the virtues of an overpaid, part time GS.
Are they not here to serve us??
Are they not here to serve us??