Paradigm shift - an impossibility in commercial aviation?
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Paradigm shift - an impossibility in commercial aviation?
OK, so I'm in management - please don't eat me! 
- but my style of management is firstly to shut up and listen, and for several years I've been "listening" to several different branches of the aviation industry, most recently to you guys on here. What I'm "hearing" is an industry that seems to be devoured by internal hostility, one that portrays itself as part of the modern world yet mostly behaves like it's stuck in a mediaeval time-warp with a bunch of would-be feudal lords gouging each other's eyes out and exploiting every peasant in their quest for domination over some small patch of land.
I never liked history - my background is the future: science and education - so with the help of some disinterested third parties and a totally blank page, I've built an alternative proposal for "passenger transport by air". When I discuss this with anyone (anyone) from outside the aviation industry, their reaction is universally "Oh, how I wish it was like that, when are you starting?" - which isn't really a surprise to me because my management training says listen to your customers and give them what they want and your business will be a success.
Now, here's the thing as I have begun to take the idea off the page an into the real world, everyone in the aviation industry says "you can't do it like that, that's not the way it's done." Why is that? What is so superbly perfect about the current model that it mustn't be challenged? This has been brought into particular focus this week as I've been in discussions with aircraft lease companies and the CAA. Both want to analyse my business plan to satisfy themselves that the proposal matches the "industry standard" - but it seems to me that it's the same "industry standard" that has pushed them (especially the CAA) to protect themselves (or the pubilc) to such an extent.
In any other commercial domain, it would be possible to set up shop and do things in an alternative way, complying with the necessary rules and regs but still being "different". Is there room for variation in this industry? Are there some aviation authorities that are more tolerant of imaginative proposals than others? That's a genuine question - I have the option of choosing France, Ireland or the UK as a base for operations.
Now I'll sit back and listen again - so someone say something ... please!
- but my style of management is firstly to shut up and listen, and for several years I've been "listening" to several different branches of the aviation industry, most recently to you guys on here. What I'm "hearing" is an industry that seems to be devoured by internal hostility, one that portrays itself as part of the modern world yet mostly behaves like it's stuck in a mediaeval time-warp with a bunch of would-be feudal lords gouging each other's eyes out and exploiting every peasant in their quest for domination over some small patch of land. I never liked history - my background is the future: science and education - so with the help of some disinterested third parties and a totally blank page, I've built an alternative proposal for "passenger transport by air". When I discuss this with anyone (anyone) from outside the aviation industry, their reaction is universally "Oh, how I wish it was like that, when are you starting?" - which isn't really a surprise to me because my management training says listen to your customers and give them what they want and your business will be a success.
Now, here's the thing as I have begun to take the idea off the page an into the real world, everyone in the aviation industry says "you can't do it like that, that's not the way it's done." Why is that? What is so superbly perfect about the current model that it mustn't be challenged? This has been brought into particular focus this week as I've been in discussions with aircraft lease companies and the CAA. Both want to analyse my business plan to satisfy themselves that the proposal matches the "industry standard" - but it seems to me that it's the same "industry standard" that has pushed them (especially the CAA) to protect themselves (or the pubilc) to such an extent.
In any other commercial domain, it would be possible to set up shop and do things in an alternative way, complying with the necessary rules and regs but still being "different". Is there room for variation in this industry? Are there some aviation authorities that are more tolerant of imaginative proposals than others? That's a genuine question - I have the option of choosing France, Ireland or the UK as a base for operations.
Now I'll sit back and listen again - so someone say something ... please!
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I would have said that the advent of the lo-cos has produced a paradigm shift in passenger travel by air. What we need now is a complete overhaul of the passenger 'security' experience and the building of more city centre airports.
So what's your new system then?
I can tell your in 'management' - you've got an idea you think's good but being anal you're withholding it and blaming everyone else for not grasping it and moving forward....
we meanwhile sit here wondering what on earth you are on about but know full well it will shortly be our fault & that you'll tell us so via the usual communication channel. salaries & perks will be cut and some team building exercise which everyone hates will be held in a budget hotel adjacent a motor way junction.
I can tell your in 'management' - you've got an idea you think's good but being anal you're withholding it and blaming everyone else for not grasping it and moving forward....
we meanwhile sit here wondering what on earth you are on about but know full well it will shortly be our fault & that you'll tell us so via the usual communication channel. salaries & perks will be cut and some team building exercise which everyone hates will be held in a budget hotel adjacent a motor way junction.
Since you're in listening mode, as a SLF, I can tell you in a few sentences what I want most of all in an air travel experience.
-Flight crews that have relevant training, and are suitably rewarded and rested for the job they do.
-Airline employees that have a genuine enough loyalty to the company that they stay long enough to gain the experience needed to answer questions, and know exactly how to deal with problems, and do this well.
-Well maintained aircraft. Don't mind if it's a bit old, provided it's in good nick.
-A seat that I can be comfortable in. No economy seat I've been in recently achieves anything like this. The newer ones seem worse, if anything.
-No entertainment system in the back of the seat. I am sick of fingers punching me in the back of the neck while I'm trying to get to sleep in my cramped, uncomfortable seat.
-Enough room between rows so that if somebody in front reclines, I can still move. And use a meal tray. Even get out.
I don't mind paying a little extra for this.
-Flight crews that have relevant training, and are suitably rewarded and rested for the job they do.
-Airline employees that have a genuine enough loyalty to the company that they stay long enough to gain the experience needed to answer questions, and know exactly how to deal with problems, and do this well.
-Well maintained aircraft. Don't mind if it's a bit old, provided it's in good nick.
-A seat that I can be comfortable in. No economy seat I've been in recently achieves anything like this. The newer ones seem worse, if anything.
-No entertainment system in the back of the seat. I am sick of fingers punching me in the back of the neck while I'm trying to get to sleep in my cramped, uncomfortable seat.
-Enough room between rows so that if somebody in front reclines, I can still move. And use a meal tray. Even get out.
I don't mind paying a little extra for this.
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Originally Posted by CR
it would be possible to set up shop and do things in an alternative way, complying with the necessary rules and regs but still being "different". Is there room for variation in this industry?
I think the only answer for you is to wait until you have results from the "discussions with aircraft lease companies and the CAA" and then let us know the problems.
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Originally Posted by Load Toad
So what's your new system then?
I can tell your in 'management' - you've got an idea you think's good but being anal you're withholding it and blaming everyone else for not grasping it and moving forward....
we meanwhile sit here wondering what on earth you are on about but know full well it will shortly be our fault & that you'll tell us so via the usual communication channel. salaries & perks will be cut and some team building exercise which everyone hates will be held in a budget hotel adjacent a motor way junction.
I can tell your in 'management' - you've got an idea you think's good but being anal you're withholding it and blaming everyone else for not grasping it and moving forward....
we meanwhile sit here wondering what on earth you are on about but know full well it will shortly be our fault & that you'll tell us so via the usual communication channel. salaries & perks will be cut and some team building exercise which everyone hates will be held in a budget hotel adjacent a motor way junction.
(Who said anything about pay - can't you feel the love???)
Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR
So what are you propsing, a(nother) new airline, an ATC system or what?
What I don't understand is that "that" is the way it's done in every other transport industry. It's no big deal, it's not new. I can get my passengers to the airport by bus, car, taxi, train, bike, lorry or boat - but I can't fly them onwards. (And I mean I really can - I have the passengers, I have half the licences/vehicles myself and know someone who has them if I don't). There's no point in approaching one of the big companies - I'm working with groups of 30-40ish - standard coach-loads, who've got fed up of 6-10hour each-way drives for a day's or a weekend's outing. I want (and can probably) sell some spare seats, but no way can I fill a >90-seater. Even a 60-seater's pushing it.
Apart from not feeling the need to contribute to some Chief Exectuive's six figure salary, I also have some concerns about the working practices of some of these regional airlines - and I share the view that Tarq57 expresses re crew - and the aforementioned apparent underlying hostility in some companies worries me. In the absence of anyone prepared to do the job for me for a sensible price, I really don't have any alternative other than to do it myself.
Originally Posted by BOAC
I think the only answer for you is to wait until you have results from the "discussions with aircraft lease companies and the CAA" and then let us know the problems.
That's just plain wierd for a regulatory agency.
In my "day job" I have the opportunity to cause or suffer death and/or serious injury by a dozen different means every hour of the working day. The regulators of that environment are seriously anal (even to the point of dictating the maximum size of the letters on signs/notices displayed to the public 
) and the safety rules are simple: do exactly what we say, how we say, when we say, and if you don't, we'll crucify you (assuming you didn't kill yourself already). The one thing they don't do, though, is tell me how to run my business - that's between me, the bank and the taxman (and a seperate standards agency if I want a nice logo for my stationery).
Originally Posted by ConstantFlyer
I would have said that the advent of the lo-cos has produced a paradigm shift in passenger travel by air. What we need now is a complete overhaul of the passenger 'security' experience and the building of more city centre airports.
Now, I don't agree that the lo-cos have really changed anything. Point-to-point almost wiped out the culture of connecting flights, but now EZ and Flybe have them back again (EZ even connecting with trains, FGS! - just like the ferry !) and up-front fares came down, but are really not much different if you can't be incredibly flexible. Prices only ever go up while you're trying to fix the rest of your travel details, cheap standby has vanished, "business" fares do nothing for small businesses, seasonality is a a way to rip-off hard working folk and parents of school age children who have no option but to travel in "that particular week" ... I could go on (and on)
So - especially for Load Toad's benefit - I propose turning all of that on its head. I've seen it work in many other sectors, including the travel industry, as a provider and a consumer. It has nothing to do with operational safety - so why do the CAA need market research to believe it?
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Problem is that CAA have a responsibility to protect the travelling public which means they must have a reasonable feel that the operating plan will be successful.
There are or were companies offering there AOC to others to start operations but I'm a bit out of touch and don't know who or where they are at present. Air Foyle were one and perhaps BAC another. I would also be tempted to talk to airlines that have in the past tried to spin off other carriers such as Atlantic Airlines.
Once you're up and running with a couple of routes you can apply for your own licence and should have an easier path.
There are or were companies offering there AOC to others to start operations but I'm a bit out of touch and don't know who or where they are at present. Air Foyle were one and perhaps BAC another. I would also be tempted to talk to airlines that have in the past tried to spin off other carriers such as Atlantic Airlines.
Once you're up and running with a couple of routes you can apply for your own licence and should have an easier path.
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I don't understand the point of this thread, at all.
Celticrambler enters to tell us that he has a "paradigm shift" in safety. It turns out he wants to charter an aircraft and apparently can't afford it. What is the problem, then?
What has any of this got to do with the price of tea in China, or safety, for that matter.
Go groups of people who want to go from A to B and don't want to use an airline? Use a charter service. Problem solved.
Upset that airlines don't want to dedicate an aircraft to a few passengers in an off-line arrangement? Use a charter service. Problem solved.
Don't understand why an airline won't open a new base for a few occasional passengers and dedicate aircraft to that new line of flying? Use a charter service. Problem solved.
The original poster stated he was in management. Clearly he's not in airline management, else he hasn't a clue how the system works.
When an airline is given permission to operate, it's also given permission to operate in certain locations, certain routes, etc. It's not at all a matter of simply showing up anywhere and flying people from A to B. That's what charter services are for. Why not ask the military? Why not ask the government? Because these groups don't apply to what the original poster wants? Correct. Same reason why one doesn't ask an airline to do it. It's not a function of an airline. It's a job for a charter service.
Charter an aircraft. Problem solved.
Cost too high? Go to an airport where there's airline service and catch a flight. Problem solved. Catch a train. Problem solved. Drive. Problem solved. Walk. Problem solved. Catch a bus. Problem solved. I think you get the idea.
Imagine that. You want to start chartering flights and you're expected to demonstrate to the same standard that everyone else does, in order to do what everyone else does. How revolutionary.
In aviation we try to approach things a little differently, you see. We have many opportunities to avoid death or serious injury every day, and we take every one we can.
You're in management, and you risk causing death or serious injury each day? Managing people to death, or managing someone into serious injury? You think CAA is different? I think you're different.
If you want "seriously anal," then you want CAA, or any other regulatory body in aviation.
You should absolutely expect to be told how to run your business, insofar as where you can fly, what you can fly, when you can fly it, how you can fly it under what circumstances you can fly it, how you must maintain it, who you drug test that does the flying and the maintenance, the personnel you'll need running your program, the insurance you carry, how you charge, and numerous other factors surrounding your operation. If, of course, you intend to do the chartering. If you don't, then hire a charter service to do it for you. They've already met these requirements, and continue to meet them on an ongoing basis.
Problem solved.
Celticrambler enters to tell us that he has a "paradigm shift" in safety. It turns out he wants to charter an aircraft and apparently can't afford it. What is the problem, then?
What has any of this got to do with the price of tea in China, or safety, for that matter.
Go groups of people who want to go from A to B and don't want to use an airline? Use a charter service. Problem solved.
Upset that airlines don't want to dedicate an aircraft to a few passengers in an off-line arrangement? Use a charter service. Problem solved.
Don't understand why an airline won't open a new base for a few occasional passengers and dedicate aircraft to that new line of flying? Use a charter service. Problem solved.
The original poster stated he was in management. Clearly he's not in airline management, else he hasn't a clue how the system works.
When an airline is given permission to operate, it's also given permission to operate in certain locations, certain routes, etc. It's not at all a matter of simply showing up anywhere and flying people from A to B. That's what charter services are for. Why not ask the military? Why not ask the government? Because these groups don't apply to what the original poster wants? Correct. Same reason why one doesn't ask an airline to do it. It's not a function of an airline. It's a job for a charter service.
Charter an aircraft. Problem solved.
Cost too high? Go to an airport where there's airline service and catch a flight. Problem solved. Catch a train. Problem solved. Drive. Problem solved. Walk. Problem solved. Catch a bus. Problem solved. I think you get the idea.
They're asking me to tell them how I'm going to work, asking me to write my own Manual of Ops, and then cover my costs in advance.
In my "day job" I have the opportunity to cause or suffer death and/or serious injury by a dozen different means every hour of the working day.
You're in management, and you risk causing death or serious injury each day? Managing people to death, or managing someone into serious injury? You think CAA is different? I think you're different.
The regulators of that environment are seriously anal (even to the point of dictating the maximum size of the letters on signs/notices displayed to the public ) and the safety rules are simple: do exactly what we say, how we say, when we say, and if you don't, we'll crucify you (assuming you didn't kill yourself already). The one thing they don't do, though, is tell me how to run my business - that's between me, the bank and the taxman (and a seperate standards agency if I want a nice logo for my stationery).
You should absolutely expect to be told how to run your business, insofar as where you can fly, what you can fly, when you can fly it, how you can fly it under what circumstances you can fly it, how you must maintain it, who you drug test that does the flying and the maintenance, the personnel you'll need running your program, the insurance you carry, how you charge, and numerous other factors surrounding your operation. If, of course, you intend to do the chartering. If you don't, then hire a charter service to do it for you. They've already met these requirements, and continue to meet them on an ongoing basis.
Problem solved.
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Actually, no Guppy, those "solutions" don't solve any of the problems - they just emphasise the attitude I come up against time and time again. Charter - good plan, only when I asked about a charter I was told "that's not a charter operation, that's a scheduled service" (21 sectors/day)
Go to an airport and get on a flight? OK, which airport? I have to travel 200km to get a flight to Dublin (Mon & Fri, summer schedule only, but thanks all the same, Michael), 350km to get a flight to Germany - well it's only another 250km to the border after that. Train? OK, the station's only 7km from here, but I haven't seen Cork on the departure board lately.
The second last time I took a flight - Dublin to Kent, my journey was made up of travel by car-walk (PierD)-plane-bus-train-walk to get to my meeting. 8 hours on the move, 1h15 in the air - that's just crazy when there was an airport only 20km from where I was trying to get to.
As for managing people to death - that's exactly what I see happening, and your comments exemplify the division between "management" and "the workers". I do a full day's work, getting my hands dirty, trying not to kill myself and those around me, meeting the perfumed people and the stinky ones; when the working day is over, then it's time to do "management".
Anyhow, the point of this thread (apart from trying to find someone who can explain why I should be allowed write my own manual of operations instead) is the hope that it will yield some helpful info like Davidsoffice has given. Thanks.
Go to an airport and get on a flight? OK, which airport? I have to travel 200km to get a flight to Dublin (Mon & Fri, summer schedule only, but thanks all the same, Michael), 350km to get a flight to Germany - well it's only another 250km to the border after that. Train? OK, the station's only 7km from here, but I haven't seen Cork on the departure board lately.
The second last time I took a flight - Dublin to Kent, my journey was made up of travel by car-walk (PierD)-plane-bus-train-walk to get to my meeting. 8 hours on the move, 1h15 in the air - that's just crazy when there was an airport only 20km from where I was trying to get to.
As for managing people to death - that's exactly what I see happening, and your comments exemplify the division between "management" and "the workers". I do a full day's work, getting my hands dirty, trying not to kill myself and those around me, meeting the perfumed people and the stinky ones; when the working day is over, then it's time to do "management".
Anyhow, the point of this thread (apart from trying to find someone who can explain why I should be allowed write my own manual of operations instead) is the hope that it will yield some helpful info like Davidsoffice has given. Thanks.
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Ultimate Air Shuttle
In Cincinnati, Ohio, there is a Biz-jet/corporate jet airport along the Ohio River called Lunken Field. Recently an airline started jet service to both Chicago (Midway Field) and Morristown, New Jersey, 20 minutes west of NYC. What makes it interesting is that all the security hassle is gone. When you make your reservation, your name is forwarded to the TSA for verification and acceptance. When you show up at Lunken, you present a photo ID, no metal detectors, body scanners or x-ray equipment and you board the airplane in the hangar. It is really nice for one day business as the flights depart bright and early in the morning giving you all day to do business in either Chicago or NYC and you are back at Lunken by 7:30 in the evening. Did I also say the airport parking is free? It is. Here is their web site:
Ultimate Air Shuttle - Fly Private For The Cost Of Commercial
A paradigm shift? Maybe, but a good one.
Turbine D
Ultimate Air Shuttle - Fly Private For The Cost Of Commercial
A paradigm shift? Maybe, but a good one.
Turbine D
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Actually, no Guppy, those "solutions" don't solve any of the problems - they just emphasise the attitude I come up against time and time again. Charter - good plan, only when I asked about a charter I was told "that's not a charter operation, that's a scheduled service" (21 sectors/day)
This has nothing to do with a paradigm shift in safety. It's about you not getting what you want.
If you want service there, you have the ability to start your own airline serving only that small market, if you think you can get it to pay. Are you prepared to do that? No? Then why are you complaining?
In Cincinnati, Ohio, there is a Biz-jet/corporate jet airport along the Ohio River called Lunken Field. Recently an airline started jet service to both Chicago (Midway Field) and Morristown, New Jersey, 20 minutes west of NYC. What makes it interesting is that all the security hassle is gone.
in aviation new ideas and new techniques and methods are dangerous!!!!...
In the USA this type of service comes about by the government sponsoring "Essential Air Service," allowing service to smaller communities. Where such subsidy isn't available (Ireland, for example), then one gets what the market bears. If the original poster wants service, get more people bring in more revenue, make it worth adding a line or route for a given airline. Or charter. It's that simple. Nothing new to see here, at all.
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You are correct, I didn't read the fine print. However, the concept is good. The flights are scheduled, everyday except Wednesday during the business week for the one to Morristown, as I recall without looking it up. Regardless, it is a wakeup call to the biggies who are asking double the airfare unless you book two weeks in advance or go standby.
Turbine D
You are correct, I didn't read the fine print. However, the concept is good. The flights are scheduled, everyday except Wednesday during the business week for the one to Morristown, as I recall without looking it up. Regardless, it is a wakeup call to the biggies who are asking double the airfare unless you book two weeks in advance or go standby.
Turbine D
