757-200 performance
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Hi prb46
Well certainly sounds interesting I’ll have to keep an eye out when it hits the streets - any idea of the title? Its nice to see someone who is trying to include elements of realism into an unrealistic situation – or is it?? I have lived in Africa and operated in both military and civil circumstances and I can assure the doubters around that this situation is certainly not beyond the bounds of belief, especially in countries such as Rwanda, Ethiopia, DR of Congo, Angola, Zimbabwe etc etc.
The choice of a 757 is a good one and all of the gen preceding is good so for what its worth here is my 2p worth!
Assuming the A/C is already at the airfield legitimately the crew would already have performance figure and would undoubtedly have done their own load sheet. Consequently they should have a rough idea of their Zero Fuel Weight and TOW. Having those figures would give them an idea of how tight performance was likely to be and they would brief accordingly. Flap 5 is normal but flap 15 is used for rumway limiting reasons but it would undoubtedly be a full power t-off.( Also dependent on temp, a/f altitude, gradient, pressure (QNH type :-)) TOW terrain etc etc) Needs must and if time was tight and they were under pressure the basics would still be there. If they had had a bird strike inbound which had caused damage which was not repaired I would also expect them to have briefed the engine out stuff carefully.
The standard calls would be – set thrust / thrust set, 80kts / check, V1, Rotate xx degrees, positive rate / gear up,(response in bold) where xx equates to the target pitch angle for the initial climb (Normally 17 to 23 degrees or 12-13 degrees engine out)
If there was an engine fire (Eicas warning plus Red MC plus bells) the response is to cancel the bell and continue as per the brief (Normally abandon below V1). As already mentioned a fire does not automatically equate to thrust loss, which would manifest itself as yaw if it occurred.
If there was a thrust loss the PNF would firewall the thrust levers and remind the PF of the pitch target and emergency turn if required. If below V1 I would expect the PF to continue to accelerate to rotate and beyond if there was available runway or to rotate early if not. The pilots would have no EICAS indication of a tail strike (a -300 would) but they would probably expect one if they had to overrotate (25deg or so). Again as already mentioned the A/C would be geometrically alpha limited until airborne but as it became airborne the net flight path would only be a minimal climb. The extra alpha causes excess induced drag which inhibits acceleration rate and consequently climb gradient. A good example of this is the unfortunate 747 accident at Halifax last year where exactly this happened. Fortunately the 757 is exceptionally powerful and would still have to power to recover (depending on the obvious of course)
Once airborne it would be a question of prioritisation - fly the beast, sort out the problems in order of importance. The crew would probably be aware of the tail strike but not necessarily of the gear, chances are given the trauma of the t-off it would go up but equally its not a problem if left down & the accel & terrain are no factor. Speed limited to 250kts/.8 if I remember. Would suggest low transit & land in friendly neighbouring state which would solve the pressurisation prob of the tail strike. The 75 has no fuel dump.
Hope its of some use - good luck btw seat fit max is 235 pax 2 jump seats in cockpit, 7(8?) crew seats & 4 toilet seats!! On long haul crew is normally 2+6
Regards & good luck
GG
Well certainly sounds interesting I’ll have to keep an eye out when it hits the streets - any idea of the title? Its nice to see someone who is trying to include elements of realism into an unrealistic situation – or is it?? I have lived in Africa and operated in both military and civil circumstances and I can assure the doubters around that this situation is certainly not beyond the bounds of belief, especially in countries such as Rwanda, Ethiopia, DR of Congo, Angola, Zimbabwe etc etc.
The choice of a 757 is a good one and all of the gen preceding is good so for what its worth here is my 2p worth!
Assuming the A/C is already at the airfield legitimately the crew would already have performance figure and would undoubtedly have done their own load sheet. Consequently they should have a rough idea of their Zero Fuel Weight and TOW. Having those figures would give them an idea of how tight performance was likely to be and they would brief accordingly. Flap 5 is normal but flap 15 is used for rumway limiting reasons but it would undoubtedly be a full power t-off.( Also dependent on temp, a/f altitude, gradient, pressure (QNH type :-)) TOW terrain etc etc) Needs must and if time was tight and they were under pressure the basics would still be there. If they had had a bird strike inbound which had caused damage which was not repaired I would also expect them to have briefed the engine out stuff carefully.
The standard calls would be – set thrust / thrust set, 80kts / check, V1, Rotate xx degrees, positive rate / gear up,(response in bold) where xx equates to the target pitch angle for the initial climb (Normally 17 to 23 degrees or 12-13 degrees engine out)
If there was an engine fire (Eicas warning plus Red MC plus bells) the response is to cancel the bell and continue as per the brief (Normally abandon below V1). As already mentioned a fire does not automatically equate to thrust loss, which would manifest itself as yaw if it occurred.
If there was a thrust loss the PNF would firewall the thrust levers and remind the PF of the pitch target and emergency turn if required. If below V1 I would expect the PF to continue to accelerate to rotate and beyond if there was available runway or to rotate early if not. The pilots would have no EICAS indication of a tail strike (a -300 would) but they would probably expect one if they had to overrotate (25deg or so). Again as already mentioned the A/C would be geometrically alpha limited until airborne but as it became airborne the net flight path would only be a minimal climb. The extra alpha causes excess induced drag which inhibits acceleration rate and consequently climb gradient. A good example of this is the unfortunate 747 accident at Halifax last year where exactly this happened. Fortunately the 757 is exceptionally powerful and would still have to power to recover (depending on the obvious of course)
Once airborne it would be a question of prioritisation - fly the beast, sort out the problems in order of importance. The crew would probably be aware of the tail strike but not necessarily of the gear, chances are given the trauma of the t-off it would go up but equally its not a problem if left down & the accel & terrain are no factor. Speed limited to 250kts/.8 if I remember. Would suggest low transit & land in friendly neighbouring state which would solve the pressurisation prob of the tail strike. The 75 has no fuel dump.
Hope its of some use - good luck btw seat fit max is 235 pax 2 jump seats in cockpit, 7(8?) crew seats & 4 toilet seats!! On long haul crew is normally 2+6
Regards & good luck
GG
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Hi Greek God
Many thanks for that.It has answered many questions that I
was about to ask.Many thanks to everyone else as well.
I sometimes wish I never started this project,it takes up your
whole life.I'm afraid there will be many more questions regarding
the 757 in the next few months.
To give everyone an idea on the project,here goes
The 757 is owned by a Paris based airline.It has four,and two
737's.
This aircraft is sent to the Cameroons,to fly out of Douala on
a three month contract to cover heavy maintenance on the
national carriers 757.There are two crew.
The maintenance is put back by a month,so one crew return
to Paris,the other remains with nothing but standby's.
In a joint deal between the airlines,the aircraft is made available
to three brokers.It is not long before the aircraft heads up North
and being June,is snapped up wherever it lands.
With one crew,it flies all over the place.I have done my research
and have been to all the places in the book.I was supposed
to be in a certain place in Africa this week,but Visa problems.
The crew are up to anything.They use min rest,they have catering problems,fuelling problems,no flight plan,no performance
etc.Ok,they have a medical emergency over the Sahara as well!
The crew do get their days off,but don't know where it will be.
The one thing the crew have is a great aircraft.
So a few questions
On start up does it make any difference which engine you start
first.I believe you normally start number two.But is there a
technical reason behind this?
You are on final approach to Zakynthos.You have a full load,so what flap setting would you use?On touchdown,you experience
a downdraft.The left main gear hits the runway,but the tilt of the
aircraft is such that a go around is called.What would be your
procedures?Aircraft pulls up with no problem,what sort of time
would it normally take before you would be on finals again?
Still got loads more questions,but one stage at a time.
Greek God
Don't know the title yet,and I still have a long way to go.I wanted to just use their final flight number,but will let you know.
Going back to my original question regarding the 757 performance.The aircraft suffers a bird strike while taxiing
in.The engineer picks this up,the flight deck crew didn't feel
anything.There is a little fan blade damage,but under ideal
conditions,ie back at base,would you normally expect to have
a boroscope check before the next departure.Ok,you would expect to have the damaged blades replaced,but is the boroscope check more important?
Once again many thanks to everyone
Many thanks for that.It has answered many questions that I
was about to ask.Many thanks to everyone else as well.
I sometimes wish I never started this project,it takes up your
whole life.I'm afraid there will be many more questions regarding
the 757 in the next few months.
To give everyone an idea on the project,here goes
The 757 is owned by a Paris based airline.It has four,and two
737's.
This aircraft is sent to the Cameroons,to fly out of Douala on
a three month contract to cover heavy maintenance on the
national carriers 757.There are two crew.
The maintenance is put back by a month,so one crew return
to Paris,the other remains with nothing but standby's.
In a joint deal between the airlines,the aircraft is made available
to three brokers.It is not long before the aircraft heads up North
and being June,is snapped up wherever it lands.
With one crew,it flies all over the place.I have done my research
and have been to all the places in the book.I was supposed
to be in a certain place in Africa this week,but Visa problems.
The crew are up to anything.They use min rest,they have catering problems,fuelling problems,no flight plan,no performance
etc.Ok,they have a medical emergency over the Sahara as well!
The crew do get their days off,but don't know where it will be.
The one thing the crew have is a great aircraft.
So a few questions
On start up does it make any difference which engine you start
first.I believe you normally start number two.But is there a
technical reason behind this?
You are on final approach to Zakynthos.You have a full load,so what flap setting would you use?On touchdown,you experience
a downdraft.The left main gear hits the runway,but the tilt of the
aircraft is such that a go around is called.What would be your
procedures?Aircraft pulls up with no problem,what sort of time
would it normally take before you would be on finals again?
Still got loads more questions,but one stage at a time.
Greek God
Don't know the title yet,and I still have a long way to go.I wanted to just use their final flight number,but will let you know.
Going back to my original question regarding the 757 performance.The aircraft suffers a bird strike while taxiing
in.The engineer picks this up,the flight deck crew didn't feel
anything.There is a little fan blade damage,but under ideal
conditions,ie back at base,would you normally expect to have
a boroscope check before the next departure.Ok,you would expect to have the damaged blades replaced,but is the boroscope check more important?
Once again many thanks to everyone
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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Prb46 Hi again
Well busy little bees certainly!!
To your questions:
It is normal to start the right engine first (no2) but no real technical requirement just convention, indeed if an airstart is required with a GPU you usually start the left first as the unit connects to the right duct and will normally impinge on the right engine intake danger area.
Would need to be a mighty bounce but Zakynthos is not that long so provided Speedbrakes & reversers not deployed a GA should not be too much bother. Approach is normally flap 30 & GA would be commanded "GA flap 15, then with pos ROC " Positive climb gear up) (unless suspected damage from bounce) A visual circuit would take about 6 - 8 minutes I would expect assuming no other probs / interference.
WRT the birdstrike. Damage to the fan is relative - the fan can take more damage than the tubine so if evidence the bird has entered the HP compressor area the borescope would be more important. NB this is extremely generalised
Hope this is OK
Well busy little bees certainly!!
To your questions:
It is normal to start the right engine first (no2) but no real technical requirement just convention, indeed if an airstart is required with a GPU you usually start the left first as the unit connects to the right duct and will normally impinge on the right engine intake danger area.
Would need to be a mighty bounce but Zakynthos is not that long so provided Speedbrakes & reversers not deployed a GA should not be too much bother. Approach is normally flap 30 & GA would be commanded "GA flap 15, then with pos ROC " Positive climb gear up) (unless suspected damage from bounce) A visual circuit would take about 6 - 8 minutes I would expect assuming no other probs / interference.
WRT the birdstrike. Damage to the fan is relative - the fan can take more damage than the tubine so if evidence the bird has entered the HP compressor area the borescope would be more important. NB this is extremely generalised
Hope this is OK
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Hi Greek God again
Fairly simple question this time,and not in this book but the first chapter of the next hopefully.
The 757 has remained at 12000ft and as it cannot return,the
Capt decides to change from going to the Cameroons and aims
North east to Nairobi.
This involves Going over Northern Rhodesia and overflying
Tanganyika.Given the fact they have no flight plan or overflight
clearances,what should they expect?Any company on their left or
right?
Unwelcome visitors arrive on the flight deck,which is how my first
book will end,and the aircraft on one engine diverts to the left
and lands in good old Entebbe.
The number two engine is completely gone.The visitors wish to take the aircraft a lot further.Capt eventually agrees,with the
understanding that all baggage will be removed,and that only
one hundred pax will stay on board.Only females and children
are allowed to stay(well, forced!)So payload fairly low.
The question I am asking is can you take off without a problem
on one engine,given this sort of payload,and what sort of fuel
would you be able to take,and what sort of mileage could you
make?The number one engine is working fine.I am working on
a runway length of around 2400ft.
Oh,sorry,it was not the Captains decision that only females and children stay on board.
And one very quick question.Where are the controls for applying
the speedbrakes.Middle console?
I do understand that the question asked is very basic.I know
you will be looking at airport weather,on route wind speeds,
destination weather,alternates etc.Just want a very rough
idea of what I can work to,and if any chance could anyone
tell me what the actual runway length is at Entebbe or does
this airport not come into Aerads
Once again,Many thanks
Fairly simple question this time,and not in this book but the first chapter of the next hopefully.
The 757 has remained at 12000ft and as it cannot return,the
Capt decides to change from going to the Cameroons and aims
North east to Nairobi.
This involves Going over Northern Rhodesia and overflying
Tanganyika.Given the fact they have no flight plan or overflight
clearances,what should they expect?Any company on their left or
right?
Unwelcome visitors arrive on the flight deck,which is how my first
book will end,and the aircraft on one engine diverts to the left
and lands in good old Entebbe.
The number two engine is completely gone.The visitors wish to take the aircraft a lot further.Capt eventually agrees,with the
understanding that all baggage will be removed,and that only
one hundred pax will stay on board.Only females and children
are allowed to stay(well, forced!)So payload fairly low.
The question I am asking is can you take off without a problem
on one engine,given this sort of payload,and what sort of fuel
would you be able to take,and what sort of mileage could you
make?The number one engine is working fine.I am working on
a runway length of around 2400ft.
Oh,sorry,it was not the Captains decision that only females and children stay on board.
And one very quick question.Where are the controls for applying
the speedbrakes.Middle console?
I do understand that the question asked is very basic.I know
you will be looking at airport weather,on route wind speeds,
destination weather,alternates etc.Just want a very rough
idea of what I can work to,and if any chance could anyone
tell me what the actual runway length is at Entebbe or does
this airport not come into Aerads
Once again,Many thanks
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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Hi again
A few discrepancies here - Northern Rhodesia? Tanganyika, 757?
Speebrake lever is captains side of the centre console.
I would not even consider a single engine takeoff anywhere irrespective of external influences you just wouldn't do it.
Depending on departure airfield, Zimbabwe has Migs Shenyangs & hawks, DRof Congo has a few Migs I believe, Zambia likewise, Malawi nothing, not too sure about Kenya or Ethiopia. Certainly I would not expect any of them to be able to react quickly enough to enable an interception but I may be wrong.
Regards
GG
A few discrepancies here - Northern Rhodesia? Tanganyika, 757?
Speebrake lever is captains side of the centre console.
I would not even consider a single engine takeoff anywhere irrespective of external influences you just wouldn't do it.
Depending on departure airfield, Zimbabwe has Migs Shenyangs & hawks, DRof Congo has a few Migs I believe, Zambia likewise, Malawi nothing, not too sure about Kenya or Ethiopia. Certainly I would not expect any of them to be able to react quickly enough to enable an interception but I may be wrong.
Regards
GG
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Hi. Have been following with interest this chain of postings, as I've always had inklings that the 757 was an excellent performer. Can any pilots w/757 experience expand upon this? I can specifically recall a take-off at John Wayne airport at Orange County (KSNA) that was probably close to max-performance (full pax load, short runway), and it was quite impressive, as a passenger.
Transparency International
Yes, the 757 is a great performer during T/O and initial climb and one engine inop. The flight controls are somewhat on the heavy side so handling is a dull affaire.
2400 ft just won't do - I cannot remember the minimum control speed [ground] for one engine inop but it must be in the 100 knots range = you can't set full bore before you got 100 knots = you need miles more than 2400 ft. Anyway, 2400 ft is too short for landing, 6000' will be OK for a legal landing at 210.000 lbs - I wouldn't dare on less than 3000'.
Funny thread. Whats the title ?
2400 ft just won't do - I cannot remember the minimum control speed [ground] for one engine inop but it must be in the 100 knots range = you can't set full bore before you got 100 knots = you need miles more than 2400 ft. Anyway, 2400 ft is too short for landing, 6000' will be OK for a legal landing at 210.000 lbs - I wouldn't dare on less than 3000'.
Funny thread. Whats the title ?
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Well here we go again
Having spent all day in London on thursday with the publishers
I have to change a few things,which I didn't want to do.
Aircraft has landed safely,and put on a very remote stand for
obvious reasons.
Okay,I accept you cannot do a one engine take-off.In an ideal
world,crew go off to a hotel,and either wait for an engine
change or replacement aircraft.And you would probably be checking your crew hours.But here is when things change.
Negotiations take place,and catering,water are put on board.
Things go well for about four hours.But then things change.
Negotiations break down,and you end up with a stewardess
very dead in the front galley.Rest of the cabin crew are
completely traumatised.
So here is my question...
Capt has flown sh360,bae146-200,737-200,757-200,747-200
and then for reasons earlier in the book returns to the 757.
F/O has three years on a 737-300 before going onto the 757.
There is a B737-800 on the main tarmac.Could you take it?
Runway distance is fine,and all manuals are up to date.
Right,the cabin crew are not qualified either,but these
are not Jarops flights,and if you can take this aircraft,
unfortunately you have lost another four passengers.
One more spanner in the works
You have hardly had any sleep in three days.Not an easy day!
Well I did say I was going to push you 757 guys to the
limit
Best regards
Having spent all day in London on thursday with the publishers
I have to change a few things,which I didn't want to do.
Aircraft has landed safely,and put on a very remote stand for
obvious reasons.
Okay,I accept you cannot do a one engine take-off.In an ideal
world,crew go off to a hotel,and either wait for an engine
change or replacement aircraft.And you would probably be checking your crew hours.But here is when things change.
Negotiations take place,and catering,water are put on board.
Things go well for about four hours.But then things change.
Negotiations break down,and you end up with a stewardess
very dead in the front galley.Rest of the cabin crew are
completely traumatised.
So here is my question...
Capt has flown sh360,bae146-200,737-200,757-200,747-200
and then for reasons earlier in the book returns to the 757.
F/O has three years on a 737-300 before going onto the 757.
There is a B737-800 on the main tarmac.Could you take it?
Runway distance is fine,and all manuals are up to date.
Right,the cabin crew are not qualified either,but these
are not Jarops flights,and if you can take this aircraft,
unfortunately you have lost another four passengers.
One more spanner in the works
You have hardly had any sleep in three days.Not an easy day!
Well I did say I was going to push you 757 guys to the
limit
Best regards
Transparency International
Wouldn't do it just for commercial reasons but in an emergency (read: sound of civil unrest / war in the background) I wouldn't think twice. Basically it is Boeing and apart from the two storey ones they are quite alike.
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Hi Again
Changing Scenarios and quite apart from getting from aircraft A to B depending on time & urgency I suppose it could be done. Although I note the Capt has only 737-200 experience & the FO -300. The -800 is a NG(New Generation) and as such quite a bit different to the 300 avionics wise but at the end of the day if it was life & death as long as you could get it fired up it would fly just the same as a normal aircraft & if - 300 speeds were used it would be on the safe side.(NG have different and more efficient wings)
Good Luck
GG
Changing Scenarios and quite apart from getting from aircraft A to B depending on time & urgency I suppose it could be done. Although I note the Capt has only 737-200 experience & the FO -300. The -800 is a NG(New Generation) and as such quite a bit different to the 300 avionics wise but at the end of the day if it was life & death as long as you could get it fired up it would fly just the same as a normal aircraft & if - 300 speeds were used it would be on the safe side.(NG have different and more efficient wings)
Good Luck
GG
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Thanks for your replies
So GG would I be better using a 767-300?This is actually
in my next book.
I believe (flew on Air seychelles)that it can do about 11 hours
which would probably make it a better proposition.
So we get to the Cameroons,and you have to head North.
Can you fly a two engine aircraft across the Sahara.I did
it on a 720b,showing my age.Just wondering what alternates
you would have.And yes,the aircraft is aiming for the middle
east.
Back to the 757.
You are making a normal approach to a standard airport.
What height and speed roughly would you be doing when
you select gear down?
F/O calls that you have two greens,and one red.Nose gear.
What would you then do?Would you have time to retract the
gears and try again,or would you be doing a go around.
No nasty guys behind,just a charter flight.
You think it's an indication problem.
So gears go down again,and still the same result.You are
certain the gear is fine.Would you then overfly the tower
so they could have a look?
I know you are probably thinking I am mad with these questions
regarding my book.I don't write one chapter at a time in order,
could be writing chapter 22 and then go back to 4.
Most of the book is just about the crew,and most flights they operate are fairly routine
Many thanks
Thanks again
So GG would I be better using a 767-300?This is actually
in my next book.
I believe (flew on Air seychelles)that it can do about 11 hours
which would probably make it a better proposition.
So we get to the Cameroons,and you have to head North.
Can you fly a two engine aircraft across the Sahara.I did
it on a 720b,showing my age.Just wondering what alternates
you would have.And yes,the aircraft is aiming for the middle
east.
Back to the 757.
You are making a normal approach to a standard airport.
What height and speed roughly would you be doing when
you select gear down?
F/O calls that you have two greens,and one red.Nose gear.
What would you then do?Would you have time to retract the
gears and try again,or would you be doing a go around.
No nasty guys behind,just a charter flight.
You think it's an indication problem.
So gears go down again,and still the same result.You are
certain the gear is fine.Would you then overfly the tower
so they could have a look?
I know you are probably thinking I am mad with these questions
regarding my book.I don't write one chapter at a time in order,
could be writing chapter 22 and then go back to 4.
Most of the book is just about the crew,and most flights they operate are fairly routine
Many thanks
Thanks again
Transparency International
Well, I never got south of Rome in a 720 
so I'll skip the Sahara bit.
In an ideal world you would have been descending with both engines in idle since leaving cruise altitude, reducing speed gradually and finally, coming up the glideslope, extending flap 1, then flap 5. At glideslope intercept select gear down and flaps 20 - speed would be max 195 knots before flaps 20 is selected. As speed bleed off (to less than 163 knots) landing flap 30 is selected. So far we've used about 1000' down the glideslope.
On a normal approach it is common SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) to be fully established 1000' above touch-down. That is: gear down, flaps in landing position (30 on a 757), speed on Vref +5 (Vref = 137 KIAS at MLW to 109 at 140.000 lbs) and engines producing positive thrust.
So - gear down comes about 2000'.
Yes, you would have time to retract the gear and try again but just barely - remember this thingy is not stopping by it self so to be safe a go around would most likely be the choice of the day.
Indication problem... hmm, got 2 lamps in that indicator - both failed ? Spare lamps are available.
Overflying the tower for a second opinion ? .... why not .... then why ? They won't be able to tell you if the gear is locked, only what it looks like.
Full emergency procedure both in the cabin and on ground will be required.
so I'll skip the Sahara bit.In an ideal world you would have been descending with both engines in idle since leaving cruise altitude, reducing speed gradually and finally, coming up the glideslope, extending flap 1, then flap 5. At glideslope intercept select gear down and flaps 20 - speed would be max 195 knots before flaps 20 is selected. As speed bleed off (to less than 163 knots) landing flap 30 is selected. So far we've used about 1000' down the glideslope.
On a normal approach it is common SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) to be fully established 1000' above touch-down. That is: gear down, flaps in landing position (30 on a 757), speed on Vref +5 (Vref = 137 KIAS at MLW to 109 at 140.000 lbs) and engines producing positive thrust.
So - gear down comes about 2000'.
Yes, you would have time to retract the gear and try again but just barely - remember this thingy is not stopping by it self so to be safe a go around would most likely be the choice of the day.
Indication problem... hmm, got 2 lamps in that indicator - both failed ? Spare lamps are available.
Overflying the tower for a second opinion ? .... why not .... then why ? They won't be able to tell you if the gear is locked, only what it looks like.
Full emergency procedure both in the cabin and on ground will be required.
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Dusk2Dawn
Many thanks and sorry,I didn't know you have two lights
and spares.
So here we go again.
On approach you don't get the green light.Front gear is
not locked and the indication is correct.I would presume
you would call for a go around straight away.
You have done the go around,but during that,would you retract the gears and try again?
Either way,the front gear does not lock.
Would your approach speeds be any different?I realise that
on landing you hold the nose up as long as possible,but
what sort of speed could you reduce to until you finally have
put the nose gear down?Would you be using max flaps?
You have called a full emergency and everything is in place
for your landing.You call the steward up front and tell him
about the problems.What would you then expect him to do?
Would he tell the pax,or just your crew?
Thanks again
Many thanks and sorry,I didn't know you have two lights
and spares.
So here we go again.
On approach you don't get the green light.Front gear is
not locked and the indication is correct.I would presume
you would call for a go around straight away.
You have done the go around,but during that,would you retract the gears and try again?
Either way,the front gear does not lock.
Would your approach speeds be any different?I realise that
on landing you hold the nose up as long as possible,but
what sort of speed could you reduce to until you finally have
put the nose gear down?Would you be using max flaps?
You have called a full emergency and everything is in place
for your landing.You call the steward up front and tell him
about the problems.What would you then expect him to do?
Would he tell the pax,or just your crew?
Thanks again
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Interesting thread!
I have a little 757 experience and hope this helps a wee bit. All you have heard about the gear problems and normal operation is correct. A couple of extras bits and pieces for you though.
The 757 is equipped with a system called EICAS Engine Instrumentation and Crew Alerting, it senses most of the parameters that at one stage were monitored by a flight eng. With a gear problem the PRIMARY indication of that problem is the EICAS, if you select gear down, don't get three greens and also get an EICAS Gear Disagree message, then you have a problem and given the time a go-around is probably the safest and least rushed option. If you do not get three greens and also get NO EICAS message, you do NOT have a problem and there is an indication problem, in theory just continue because the gear IS down. Testing the bulbs by pressing the test switch for the lighting can be more trouble than it is worth, and a button I will never allowed to be touched in the air. I can not think of many things worse than it sticking in the on position and illumination the whole flight deck up, masking any further problems for the resy of the flight, but each to their own! As for doing fly pasts, daytime, maybe not much use if it is at night especially if it is a main gear problem, one thing that can save you though is that the landing lights are on the nose gear, so only when it is down and locked do they come on, I have in the past flashed them at our ground based colleagues, if they see them flash and there is no EICAS message, it's a pretty safe bet the gear is where it should be.
Good luck with the book.
Jazzy
I have a little 757 experience and hope this helps a wee bit. All you have heard about the gear problems and normal operation is correct. A couple of extras bits and pieces for you though.
The 757 is equipped with a system called EICAS Engine Instrumentation and Crew Alerting, it senses most of the parameters that at one stage were monitored by a flight eng. With a gear problem the PRIMARY indication of that problem is the EICAS, if you select gear down, don't get three greens and also get an EICAS Gear Disagree message, then you have a problem and given the time a go-around is probably the safest and least rushed option. If you do not get three greens and also get NO EICAS message, you do NOT have a problem and there is an indication problem, in theory just continue because the gear IS down. Testing the bulbs by pressing the test switch for the lighting can be more trouble than it is worth, and a button I will never allowed to be touched in the air. I can not think of many things worse than it sticking in the on position and illumination the whole flight deck up, masking any further problems for the resy of the flight, but each to their own! As for doing fly pasts, daytime, maybe not much use if it is at night especially if it is a main gear problem, one thing that can save you though is that the landing lights are on the nose gear, so only when it is down and locked do they come on, I have in the past flashed them at our ground based colleagues, if they see them flash and there is no EICAS message, it's a pretty safe bet the gear is where it should be.
Good luck with the book.
Jazzy
Transparency International
Yes, I think I would retract the gear in the go-around and from there on follow the QRH - Quick Reference Handbook (emerg. checklist).
Normal landing flaps and approach speed.
On landing I would not hold the nose up as long as possible because the 757 runs out of speed (= aerodynamic control) in a most ungratifying manner resulting in a very firm nose down. A controlled lowering of the nose is to be preferred.
As for the cabin you would have to brief not only the crew but also the pax on the impending nose gear collapse. Unless the steward has peculiar talents in talking to people, the aircraft commander would do the initial explanation, ending with "follow the instructions given by the cabin crew". Those will include instructions on how and when to take the "brace for impact" position. And not to use the aft exits as the slides probably can't reach the ground (The Gimli Glider strikes again).
Normal landing flaps and approach speed.
On landing I would not hold the nose up as long as possible because the 757 runs out of speed (= aerodynamic control) in a most ungratifying manner resulting in a very firm nose down. A controlled lowering of the nose is to be preferred.
As for the cabin you would have to brief not only the crew but also the pax on the impending nose gear collapse. Unless the steward has peculiar talents in talking to people, the aircraft commander would do the initial explanation, ending with "follow the instructions given by the cabin crew". Those will include instructions on how and when to take the "brace for impact" position. And not to use the aft exits as the slides probably can't reach the ground (The Gimli Glider strikes again).
Last edited by dusk2dawn; 31st Mar 2005 at 19:19.
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Thanks again
So you come it a normal speed,and everyone is expecting
a problem.
You put the nose down and it's not locked.Would it just go back
into it's bay,or would it kick back into the cabin.And on the approach or before,would you ask pax and crew at the front to move back(165 pax)
So the gear collapses,but the nose has to come down at some
point.Does the 757 have enough strength under you for you
to get out in one piece?(Under the cockpit)
At what point would you use reverse thrust?After the gear
collapses,or when main gears touch down?
Sorry to be a pain
So you come it a normal speed,and everyone is expecting
a problem.
You put the nose down and it's not locked.Would it just go back
into it's bay,or would it kick back into the cabin.And on the approach or before,would you ask pax and crew at the front to move back(165 pax)
So the gear collapses,but the nose has to come down at some
point.Does the 757 have enough strength under you for you
to get out in one piece?(Under the cockpit)
At what point would you use reverse thrust?After the gear
collapses,or when main gears touch down?
Sorry to be a pain
Transparency International
Would it just go back into it's bay,or would it kick back into the cabin ?
Haven't got the faintest.... what kind of fault is it ?
Would you ask pax and crew at the front to move back ?
Serves no purpose (opinions anyone ?)
Does the 757 have enough strength under you for you to get out in one piece ?
Sure - it's a Boeing
At what point would you use reverse thrust ?
Idle reverse at touch-down followed by emergency shut-down and evacuation as soon as aircraft stops.
Now it's my turn: what will the title be?
Haven't got the faintest.... what kind of fault is it ?
Would you ask pax and crew at the front to move back ?
Serves no purpose (opinions anyone ?)
Does the 757 have enough strength under you for you to get out in one piece ?
Sure - it's a Boeing
At what point would you use reverse thrust ?
Idle reverse at touch-down followed by emergency shut-down and evacuation as soon as aircraft stops.
Now it's my turn: what will the title be?
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Just to add a little more complication for you the 757 also has an emergency gear lowering system. Press a button and an independent system releases the uplocks. The gear should then drop down under its own weight and hopefully lock.
Crossing the sahara would be no problem if the a/c has the ETOPS kit - 757s cross the atlantic regularly. Otherwise just go down through Egypt, Sudan keeping within an hour's flight of Cairo, Khartoum, Addis and so forth.
At typical ldg wt the book says you need about 1450 metres - 4750 feet - of rwy for landing. In practice it will stop in about 1100 m in the dry if you really try. For a max wt takeoff at african temps I would think you'd need around 2400m.
more thoughts to follow
In the ultra marginal TO situation it is possible to get airborne and climb one or maybe two hundred feet whilst the a/c is in ground effect (think of it as a cushion of air between wing and ground) but then to stall. This has caused some crashes when TO has been made with wrong flap setting (747 at Nairobi many years ago for eg).
If you had ground dropping away beyond the end of the rwy you might be able to execute a dramatic recovery - brushing treetops etc could make useful copy.
Good luck with the novel.
Crossing the sahara would be no problem if the a/c has the ETOPS kit - 757s cross the atlantic regularly. Otherwise just go down through Egypt, Sudan keeping within an hour's flight of Cairo, Khartoum, Addis and so forth.
At typical ldg wt the book says you need about 1450 metres - 4750 feet - of rwy for landing. In practice it will stop in about 1100 m in the dry if you really try. For a max wt takeoff at african temps I would think you'd need around 2400m.
more thoughts to follow
In the ultra marginal TO situation it is possible to get airborne and climb one or maybe two hundred feet whilst the a/c is in ground effect (think of it as a cushion of air between wing and ground) but then to stall. This has caused some crashes when TO has been made with wrong flap setting (747 at Nairobi many years ago for eg).
If you had ground dropping away beyond the end of the rwy you might be able to execute a dramatic recovery - brushing treetops etc could make useful copy.
Good luck with the novel.
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Prb46
Can't wait for this one to hit 'Waterstones' I can tell you!
With ref to your 'Gear problem on Approach' if the a/c config. was Flap 20 (Single Engine Landing Flap setting) when the 'Gear Down' call was made and, after selection, the nosegear appeared down but not locked (i.e. No Green light & Eicas Clear but a hell of a "THUNK!" below the cockpit floor and a beam from the nosegear landing and taxylights, assuming this occurs at night), then 'a seasoned veteran' on the 75' MAY then select Flap30 because if indeed the gear wasn't down and locked then the "TOO LOW- GEAR" aural warning would sound on the GPWS. If, however, all was quiet, it would probably be an indication problem and you'd reselect Flap 20...if a Go Around was a likelyhood.
Beware going into Entebbe. I've been there 3 times in the last 2 months and hit 2 or 3 birds every time but it is probably a safer bet than trying to go around off 06 at Nairobi because even an overloaded 75' on 1 engine would struggle to Go Around from an MDA of 5500'. Remember on a 75' you can't jettison fuel to reduce your Landing weight to meet Approach/Climb performance criteria.
Performance wise, I've lifted 220 pax from U-Tapao AB in Southern Thailand to Bahrain in the teeth of the usual Sub- Himalayan Jetstreams and squeezed in full tanks which was just enough fuel for the 7H 50M flight + standard reserves, or Thumrait AB in Oman to RAF Brize Norton with 210 pax but a lot of freight was 8H 05m and both were bang on the limit of MTOW. Just an idea for your - max pax/max fuel endurance ballpark figure.
For distance check the length of the runway 14/32 at Umea, Northern Sweden (ESNU). I've taken the same config'd aircraft from there to Tenerife (with approx 30T of fuel) but it is very short (6000' ish) and it was contaminated.
In a nutshell, she climbs like a homesick angel!
Hope this helps and good luck!
Can't wait for this one to hit 'Waterstones' I can tell you!
With ref to your 'Gear problem on Approach' if the a/c config. was Flap 20 (Single Engine Landing Flap setting) when the 'Gear Down' call was made and, after selection, the nosegear appeared down but not locked (i.e. No Green light & Eicas Clear but a hell of a "THUNK!" below the cockpit floor and a beam from the nosegear landing and taxylights, assuming this occurs at night), then 'a seasoned veteran' on the 75' MAY then select Flap30 because if indeed the gear wasn't down and locked then the "TOO LOW- GEAR" aural warning would sound on the GPWS. If, however, all was quiet, it would probably be an indication problem and you'd reselect Flap 20...if a Go Around was a likelyhood.
Beware going into Entebbe. I've been there 3 times in the last 2 months and hit 2 or 3 birds every time but it is probably a safer bet than trying to go around off 06 at Nairobi because even an overloaded 75' on 1 engine would struggle to Go Around from an MDA of 5500'. Remember on a 75' you can't jettison fuel to reduce your Landing weight to meet Approach/Climb performance criteria.
Performance wise, I've lifted 220 pax from U-Tapao AB in Southern Thailand to Bahrain in the teeth of the usual Sub- Himalayan Jetstreams and squeezed in full tanks which was just enough fuel for the 7H 50M flight + standard reserves, or Thumrait AB in Oman to RAF Brize Norton with 210 pax but a lot of freight was 8H 05m and both were bang on the limit of MTOW. Just an idea for your - max pax/max fuel endurance ballpark figure.
For distance check the length of the runway 14/32 at Umea, Northern Sweden (ESNU). I've taken the same config'd aircraft from there to Tenerife (with approx 30T of fuel) but it is very short (6000' ish) and it was contaminated.
In a nutshell, she climbs like a homesick angel!
Hope this helps and good luck!
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Once again many thanks to you all for your replies.
Sorry not to have said thanks before but I have to work
to 'Writers time limitations!I need two days off in 28!!
I am digesting all your replies,but you have to remember I
have to dilute them slightly in the book so the general public
can understand.
As some of you are interested and you have taken the time to respond,I will give you a brief idea about the book.
It really is all about one crew working out of West Africa.
The reasons why a mixed nationality of crew are there in the first place becomes apparent from the first six chapters.
They all arrive to cover heavy maintenance on one of the national
carriers 757.
Maintenance is put back four to six weeks,so to begin with it
stays as a back up.
Within a week however,a joint agreement between the companies is made and the aircraft is brokered out.That's when
the fun begins.They head back to Europe and go all over the place,with the intention of returning To africa when they are
needed.It is the summer and the 757 is in heavy demand.
So,I just add problems for this crew all the way through.
Thus the technical questions.
The majority of the book deals with the interrelations between
the crew.Wherever they go,one disaster happens after another.
There is an engineer with them all the time,but even he get's
tired at times.
They do get their rest periods,days off are obviously wherever
they are.Back up spares etc are in Paris,with some having been
taken to Africa.
They finally end up in a war zone.What was supposed to be a quick in and out,ends up with a minor bird strike.At that point
the situation wasn't that bad so they delayed the flight to await
a boroscope and some new blades.But things do get worse and they get trapped in their hotel and parts don't arrive.
That's when they decide to just go,hence on this occasion my
question about aborting before V1.
So most is about the talk between the crew.The capt has found someone to take the steps away.Leaps into the cabin,tells
the purser to close up,straight into the flight deck and fairly
jumps into his seat,straps up,and then straight away says
'lets go'.It is after all fiction.
It's just I want to be as accurate with the calls and performance
to make it realistic.That's why the questions.Haven't started
on autoland,GPS,HF yet but they will come.
Dusk2Dawn
Title is very boring
PAT 101
Based on flight number in last chapter.
It will have a very nice picture of the 757-200 leaving the
war zone just as it starts to rotate.
Book will be in paperback and around 370 pages.
Well I better get back to chapter 16,which you will be pleased
to know has no flying,so no more questions for a while.
Sorry if I have bored anyone
Sorry not to have said thanks before but I have to work
to 'Writers time limitations!I need two days off in 28!!
I am digesting all your replies,but you have to remember I
have to dilute them slightly in the book so the general public
can understand.
As some of you are interested and you have taken the time to respond,I will give you a brief idea about the book.
It really is all about one crew working out of West Africa.
The reasons why a mixed nationality of crew are there in the first place becomes apparent from the first six chapters.
They all arrive to cover heavy maintenance on one of the national
carriers 757.
Maintenance is put back four to six weeks,so to begin with it
stays as a back up.
Within a week however,a joint agreement between the companies is made and the aircraft is brokered out.That's when
the fun begins.They head back to Europe and go all over the place,with the intention of returning To africa when they are
needed.It is the summer and the 757 is in heavy demand.
So,I just add problems for this crew all the way through.
Thus the technical questions.
The majority of the book deals with the interrelations between
the crew.Wherever they go,one disaster happens after another.
There is an engineer with them all the time,but even he get's
tired at times.
They do get their rest periods,days off are obviously wherever
they are.Back up spares etc are in Paris,with some having been
taken to Africa.
They finally end up in a war zone.What was supposed to be a quick in and out,ends up with a minor bird strike.At that point
the situation wasn't that bad so they delayed the flight to await
a boroscope and some new blades.But things do get worse and they get trapped in their hotel and parts don't arrive.
That's when they decide to just go,hence on this occasion my
question about aborting before V1.
So most is about the talk between the crew.The capt has found someone to take the steps away.Leaps into the cabin,tells
the purser to close up,straight into the flight deck and fairly
jumps into his seat,straps up,and then straight away says
'lets go'.It is after all fiction.
It's just I want to be as accurate with the calls and performance
to make it realistic.That's why the questions.Haven't started
on autoland,GPS,HF yet but they will come.
Dusk2Dawn
Title is very boring
PAT 101
Based on flight number in last chapter.
It will have a very nice picture of the 757-200 leaving the
war zone just as it starts to rotate.
Book will be in paperback and around 370 pages.
Well I better get back to chapter 16,which you will be pleased
to know has no flying,so no more questions for a while.
Sorry if I have bored anyone