controllers with broken english
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Hi
Followings critics concerning my post,
Aviation owes a lot to the french culture, for example,
the word "aviation"comes from the french word "avion" wich means airplane.
so YES, THE FRENCHS INVENTED AVIATION
Also the word "ailerons" comes from the french word "aile" wich means wing, have you already flown an aircraft without aileron, of course not, so you can say thanks you to the frenchs
for putting ailerons on your wings.
VIVE LA FRANCE
Followings critics concerning my post,
Aviation owes a lot to the french culture, for example,
the word "aviation"comes from the french word "avion" wich means airplane.
so YES, THE FRENCHS INVENTED AVIATION
Also the word "ailerons" comes from the french word "aile" wich means wing, have you already flown an aircraft without aileron, of course not, so you can say thanks you to the frenchs
for putting ailerons on your wings.VIVE LA FRANCE
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I do agree with you. But we first have to increase the english level among French pilots and ATC...LFPG ATC made a try with all english frequency...and they stopped quickly ! I don't know really why...it seems that they had comprehension problems with AF pilots...So it was a safety problem too!!! I think we will talk again later about speaking only english! I think general aviation is a big problem too. it will kill it to request a high english level from all pilots.
Of course we love our language...but we like to learn and to speak other languages too... and you? Im sure you're not proud at all
Of course we love our language...but we like to learn and to speak other languages too... and you? Im sure you're not proud at all
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I do agree that sometimes the english speaking folks get creative and deviate from the standard terminology, but speaking two different languages in the same terminal area is far more dangerous. The problem in French-speaking skies is exactly that, when you hear a sentence and then your call sign. They're obviously talking about your location/altitude/intentions...but you have no clue what they are saying. It is completely unsafe how they are allowed to do that. My French speaking FO once tried chatting en Francais, to which I showed no tolerance.
Hats off to most European or even Arab countries for communicating in English even amongst themselves most of the times, but in France they never speak English to a French-speaking pilot. Of course the roots of most words are French and not Latin which is the mother of most European languages. Once a friend tried to convince me that 'week-end' was French! I'll be happy to learn another language, but I just wish people decide on something and then 'just do it'!
Hats off to most European or even Arab countries for communicating in English even amongst themselves most of the times, but in France they never speak English to a French-speaking pilot. Of course the roots of most words are French and not Latin which is the mother of most European languages. Once a friend tried to convince me that 'week-end' was French! I'll be happy to learn another language, but I just wish people decide on something and then 'just do it'!
Ohcirrej
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It only took a couple of weeks to kick this one off again. The "yeah but French is an ICAO language", "we invented aviation". Next it will be "we fly an Airbus, so we're going to speak French.......Well we fly a Boeing, so we'll speak American" (God help us all!). And lets look at this senario: French speaking carrier in confliction with english speaking carrier and avoiding action given. Instructions being barked at one pilot in french, the other guy sitting there thinking WTF???
On a visit to Montreal Centre earlier in the year and was listening in on their Terminal Speciality. It was very strange hearing bi-lingual sequencing (admittedly, I was a little hung-over and I'm easily confused). But, IMHO I wouldn't like to be a pilot entering TMA airspace with Engligh and French instructions being thrown about. Fair dues to the controllers who do it, but situational awareness in the air, hmmmmmm.
On a lighter note, I heard a story last night about a certain French Aer Lingus pilot who has adopted the paddy "Good luck!" on changing frequencies. Nice one
On a visit to Montreal Centre earlier in the year and was listening in on their Terminal Speciality. It was very strange hearing bi-lingual sequencing (admittedly, I was a little hung-over and I'm easily confused). But, IMHO I wouldn't like to be a pilot entering TMA airspace with Engligh and French instructions being thrown about. Fair dues to the controllers who do it, but situational awareness in the air, hmmmmmm.
On a lighter note, I heard a story last night about a certain French Aer Lingus pilot who has adopted the paddy "Good luck!" on changing frequencies. Nice one
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English has more roots in Germanic languages than in French.
Surely we should be blaming the education system that allows us to drop languages so early in school, and does not teach it early in primary school when languages can be most easily assimilated.
Europe used to publish everything in (I believe) three languages. The EU no longer publish in any other language than English, as this became too costly. The French seem happy with that.
Perhaps the onus should be on ICAO and not the French per se who are allowed by the ICAO rules to use mixed languages in this way, to ensure that only English, or whatever should be the clearance language with an emphasis on poor weather. The French do not break the rules.
Don't be so petty, and broaden your mind by learning another language.
Surely we should be blaming the education system that allows us to drop languages so early in school, and does not teach it early in primary school when languages can be most easily assimilated.
Europe used to publish everything in (I believe) three languages. The EU no longer publish in any other language than English, as this became too costly. The French seem happy with that.
Perhaps the onus should be on ICAO and not the French per se who are allowed by the ICAO rules to use mixed languages in this way, to ensure that only English, or whatever should be the clearance language with an emphasis on poor weather. The French do not break the rules.
Don't be so petty, and broaden your mind by learning another language.
Ohcirrej
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Perhaps the onus should be on ICAO and not the French per se who are allowed by the ICAO rules to use mixed languages in this way, to ensure that only English, or whatever should be the clearance language with an emphasis on poor weather. The French do not break the rules.
But, and I acknowledge I am guilty as well, it's easy to fall into French bashing. To further the discussion, would there be international outcry if ICAO were to stipulate that english was to become the only language to be used?
Sun worshipper
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Lucifer
Would you please click on the following links,as I think they're -coul be - an eye-opener to a lot of PPruners.The estimated cost of translation and interpretation is,as you said ENORMOUS but it required to be better known.
ibeurope.com/Database/Factsheets/F048lang.htm
http://europa.eu.int
I just played a game which was to erase the french-originated words of one paragraph of your latst post and it now reads like this :
"we should be the that allows us to drop so early and does not teach it early in when can be".
I agree with the rest of your post.
Crash1
I would be really interested in having the details and date of the incident you refrer to and whether you filed a report.
Mind you,I for one am all for an all-english ATC/RT procedure in all international airports,but face it ,we shall have to get IFALPA on this and in the mean time,we shall have to bear with language idiosyncracies from all over the world,including the US...
Regards
Would you please click on the following links,as I think they're -coul be - an eye-opener to a lot of PPruners.The estimated cost of translation and interpretation is,as you said ENORMOUS but it required to be better known.
ibeurope.com/Database/Factsheets/F048lang.htm
http://europa.eu.int
I just played a game which was to erase the french-originated words of one paragraph of your latst post and it now reads like this :
"we should be the that allows us to drop so early and does not teach it early in when can be".
I agree with the rest of your post.
Crash1
I would be really interested in having the details and date of the incident you refrer to and whether you filed a report.
Mind you,I for one am all for an all-english ATC/RT procedure in all international airports,but face it ,we shall have to get IFALPA on this and in the mean time,we shall have to bear with language idiosyncracies from all over the world,including the US...
Regards
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I always believed that it had been reduced to English for many non-public documents due to the cost. I don't think those links verify the validity of this or not - I was not as specific as I could have been.
Sun worshipper
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Lucifer
You are not getting away that easily.
As you can see in the document,there are ELEVEN official languages in the EU.The Commission is still using the three procedural languages you probably referred to:French,German and English.
The cost of the translation/interpretation IS STILL being borne by the EU citizens to the amount of €690 million.
Regards
You are not getting away that easily.
Europe used to publish everything in (I believe) three languages. The EU no longer publish in any other language than English, as this became too costly
The cost of the translation/interpretation IS STILL being borne by the EU citizens to the amount of €690 million.
Regards
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It's understandable that the French are miffed that English is the world's lingua franca (tee hee). But what are you going to do, change history? We got Nelson & Wellington - you got the short-arsed Corsican with the tiny todger.
On a slightly more serious note, the very fact that the French & Belgian posters are writing their posts in English kind of proves the point. Domestically, people should use & be proud of their language, vive la difference and all that, but any international ATC communications should be in one language. As Esperanto never took off due to it being rubbish, the only language that fits the bill is English.
Laissez-faire? Non, merci.
On a slightly more serious note, the very fact that the French & Belgian posters are writing their posts in English kind of proves the point. Domestically, people should use & be proud of their language, vive la difference and all that, but any international ATC communications should be in one language. As Esperanto never took off due to it being rubbish, the only language that fits the bill is English.
Laissez-faire? Non, merci.
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It is a shame some people still think they are in the middle ages... and still mention the old English/French rivalry...
It is time mentalities evolve! Remembering Nelson and Napoleon is a bit obsolete.... it would be a bit like remembering the Germans or the Japanese for WW2... This is the past, it is time to move on!
Oh, and by the way, I think that, here in the UK, we forget that if "AMERICAN" English is the international language nowadays, it is obviously thanks to the Americans (basically, after WW2), not thanks to ourselves.... worth considering....
we are not as important as we like to think...
PS: The fact that the French and Belgian posters write in the forum in English actually shows us they try to communicate with other people in another language, which some of us, in the UK, do not seem to do...
How many times people said "What is the point in learning a foreign language, everybody in the world speaks English"....?
(Regards to all of you in the forum who love languages, communication, people, different cultures and are broad minded 
and to Lucifer who's got it right
It is time mentalities evolve! Remembering Nelson and Napoleon is a bit obsolete.... it would be a bit like remembering the Germans or the Japanese for WW2... This is the past, it is time to move on! Oh, and by the way, I think that, here in the UK, we forget that if "AMERICAN" English is the international language nowadays, it is obviously thanks to the Americans (basically, after WW2), not thanks to ourselves.... worth considering....
we are not as important as we like to think...PS: The fact that the French and Belgian posters write in the forum in English actually shows us they try to communicate with other people in another language, which some of us, in the UK, do not seem to do...
How many times people said "What is the point in learning a foreign language, everybody in the world speaks English"....?
(Regards to all of you in the forum who love languages, communication, people, different cultures and are broad minded
and to Lucifer who's got it right
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I agree we should not dwell in the past.
However we must not forget this fact. If it wasn't for our American friends and the allies in the '40's there would not be too much French spoken today.
The whole point of a common language for ATC is to try and keep aircraft apart, both on the ground and in the air.
However we must not forget this fact. If it wasn't for our American friends and the allies in the '40's there would not be too much French spoken today.
The whole point of a common language for ATC is to try and keep aircraft apart, both on the ground and in the air.
Flew from Hong Kong to Kuala Lumpur yesterday, and passing through Ho Che Mihn's airspace, there was a female controller - I could understand perhaps one word in ten she was saying.
Fortunately I was flying so I didn't have to talk to her ...
I was sorely tempted to ask her if "Do you have another radio & voice you could try?"
Thought better of it though ....
Pretty much everyone else was having a lot of trouble with her as well.
Fortunately I was flying so I didn't have to talk to her ...
I was sorely tempted to ask her if "Do you have another radio & voice you could try?"
Thought better of it though ....
Pretty much everyone else was having a lot of trouble with her as well.
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I think nowadays most sub-consciously agree that although we are one people and may be united, but all should also celebrate their culture and its uniqueness and that our differences make this (blue) planet a much more beautiful place.
But ... the discussion at hand is about the common language of aviation and its implications on safety. There were clearly two ways: one was to invent a new language which perhaps borrowed a little bit from many languages and was easy to learn, as in Esperanto (it might still be a choice for a Universal auxiliary language as it is far from dead), or two was to choose from the existing ones. If a language has been selected to be communicated in the skies of our global village, then it should be practiced by all parties, including the ones that might have voted against it. Otherwise, the spirit of unity is broken by not enforcing the decision of the majority, not to mention the safety risks which were the reason for making such decision in the first place.
It is important for every one to speak at least one other language which helps us understand one another better, especially if it were a common International Auxiliary Language spoken by all. Today, that language has become the American-English; however in due time, it would be more befitting for the peoples of the world to either select or invent one. The universal participation in its selection will likely make its implementation more acceptable to all, however in the meantime and as far as AVIATION is concerned, every one has to keep their end of the bargain and communicate only in English on the radio.
But ... the discussion at hand is about the common language of aviation and its implications on safety. There were clearly two ways: one was to invent a new language which perhaps borrowed a little bit from many languages and was easy to learn, as in Esperanto (it might still be a choice for a Universal auxiliary language as it is far from dead), or two was to choose from the existing ones. If a language has been selected to be communicated in the skies of our global village, then it should be practiced by all parties, including the ones that might have voted against it. Otherwise, the spirit of unity is broken by not enforcing the decision of the majority, not to mention the safety risks which were the reason for making such decision in the first place.
It is important for every one to speak at least one other language which helps us understand one another better, especially if it were a common International Auxiliary Language spoken by all. Today, that language has become the American-English; however in due time, it would be more befitting for the peoples of the world to either select or invent one. The universal participation in its selection will likely make its implementation more acceptable to all, however in the meantime and as far as AVIATION is concerned, every one has to keep their end of the bargain and communicate only in English on the radio.
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I know there isn't a smiley for 'tongue-in-cheek' but I thought it was obvious that that was how the start of my original post was phrased. Obviously not.
It wasn't a post about 'foreigner-bashing'. But the facts are because of the 19th century British Empire and 20th century American cultural hegemony, English is the closest thing to a 'world' language. So for saftey reasons and no other, should be the only language for international ATC comms.
As it happens, I do speak another language fluently - Dutch. The reason I don't post on this international BB in it, is because 99.5% of the readers wouldn't have a clue what I was saying.
Vive la difference and vliegen lekker!
It wasn't a post about 'foreigner-bashing'. But the facts are because of the 19th century British Empire and 20th century American cultural hegemony, English is the closest thing to a 'world' language. So for saftey reasons and no other, should be the only language for international ATC comms.
As it happens, I do speak another language fluently - Dutch. The reason I don't post on this international BB in it, is because 99.5% of the readers wouldn't have a clue what I was saying.
Vive la difference and vliegen lekker!
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A few years ago while operating a radar mapping survey aircraft in a European country ( not France ) my survey area encroached on the ILS approach path to a fairly quiet ... non radar, medium sized airport...Radar mapping work can be carried on in ( non-turbulant ) IMC conditions and ATC were well informed as to our work area and were constantly requesting updates on our position. Periodically ATC used their own language .... we presumed for communications that did not affect us....
crossing the ILS approach at 90 deg. we suddenly exited from cloud into the clear to find a Fokker 100 very close on a definate colision course in our 10 o'clock...ATC had forgotton our last position and track report and cleared him for the approach in the local language. He broke into a very steep climbing turn left and I broke sharp right...the miss was very close..the turn he made bordered on aerobatics and I can imagine his pasengers being in a state of shock.... The pilot certainly sounded shaken when he finally calmed down enough to talk again....
It was to avoid this kind of incident and accident that the one language rule came into effect.....I'm not against controllers and pilots of the same nationality using their own language when there are no foreign aircraft on frequency... that would be churlish....but once there is a non local aircraft on frequency then the rule MUST apply....for better or worse the language of the air is English.....those of us flying today didn't decide this but like all the other rules that affect our safety... we should abide by it.
crossing the ILS approach at 90 deg. we suddenly exited from cloud into the clear to find a Fokker 100 very close on a definate colision course in our 10 o'clock...ATC had forgotton our last position and track report and cleared him for the approach in the local language. He broke into a very steep climbing turn left and I broke sharp right...the miss was very close..the turn he made bordered on aerobatics and I can imagine his pasengers being in a state of shock.... The pilot certainly sounded shaken when he finally calmed down enough to talk again....
It was to avoid this kind of incident and accident that the one language rule came into effect.....I'm not against controllers and pilots of the same nationality using their own language when there are no foreign aircraft on frequency... that would be churlish....but once there is a non local aircraft on frequency then the rule MUST apply....for better or worse the language of the air is English.....those of us flying today didn't decide this but like all the other rules that affect our safety... we should abide by it.