controllers with broken english
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I dont think that argument works as we have many examples of just how badly things can go wrong when English is being used.I have NEVER found flying in French airspace the slightest bit dangerous.It is a beautiful language and the French are naturally proud of it.
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Rananim...
If you don't think that an argument for safety works I sincerely hope that you have no access to the controls of an aeroplane.
An incident is a precursor to an accident...
I don't give a monkeys how ' beautiful ' a language is people should not be dying to allow its wrongful use...Persian is arguably the most beautiful language of the modern world but we don't use it in the air..
get your head together or stay away from the sky.
If you don't think that an argument for safety works I sincerely hope that you have no access to the controls of an aeroplane.
An incident is a precursor to an accident...
I don't give a monkeys how ' beautiful ' a language is people should not be dying to allow its wrongful use...Persian is arguably the most beautiful language of the modern world but we don't use it in the air..
get your head together or stay away from the sky.
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Yes, we should all be speaking a common language on the airwaves, so... why not have French as the unique aviation language? Just a thought.
To get the record straight, the Streamline/Air Liberte runway collision in CDG a few years ago happened because ATC cleared an Air Liberte MD-83 to take off after they had cleared the Streamline Shed to cross the runway. Language was only a contributory factor, the main reason for the collision was a wrong clearance. There is no proof whatsoever that it would not have happened in the same circumstances had the two aircraft (and ATC) been speaking the same language. After all, aviation's worst ever collision - the 1977 Tenerife North accident between a Pan Am and a KLM 747 (577 fatalities) happened even though everyone spoke English.
As an anecdote, I was recently ferrying an aircraft across the Channel, and while I contacted Paris Information in French, the female ATCO kept answering in English because... my registration started with G!
Cheers
To get the record straight, the Streamline/Air Liberte runway collision in CDG a few years ago happened because ATC cleared an Air Liberte MD-83 to take off after they had cleared the Streamline Shed to cross the runway. Language was only a contributory factor, the main reason for the collision was a wrong clearance. There is no proof whatsoever that it would not have happened in the same circumstances had the two aircraft (and ATC) been speaking the same language. After all, aviation's worst ever collision - the 1977 Tenerife North accident between a Pan Am and a KLM 747 (577 fatalities) happened even though everyone spoke English.
As an anecdote, I was recently ferrying an aircraft across the Channel, and while I contacted Paris Information in French, the female ATCO kept answering in English because... my registration started with G!
Cheers
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I also... out of courtesy... will use a local language to say Good morning....the essential information following should be there for all to understand...
Citing the Tenerife disaster as an example does you no credit whatsoever....the problem was partly that the contollers English was so poor that the pilots were having trouble understanding him..A similar problem arose with a Dan Air aircraft in the Canary Islands some years back resulting in a collision with high ground. To argue that ' things go wrong anyway' is a fatuous argument... Being at the front of the aircraft it's in our interests to try to ensure that things don't go wrong.
On a stinking wet and dismal night watching businessmen climbing aboard the aircraft after a hard day I often think of the families waiting for them at home.....It's up to us to get them there...So go away and campaign all you like... the language of the air is English...until it changes, use it.
I'm beginning to see the value of Airline Psychometric tests..
Citing the Tenerife disaster as an example does you no credit whatsoever....the problem was partly that the contollers English was so poor that the pilots were having trouble understanding him..A similar problem arose with a Dan Air aircraft in the Canary Islands some years back resulting in a collision with high ground. To argue that ' things go wrong anyway' is a fatuous argument... Being at the front of the aircraft it's in our interests to try to ensure that things don't go wrong.
On a stinking wet and dismal night watching businessmen climbing aboard the aircraft after a hard day I often think of the families waiting for them at home.....It's up to us to get them there...So go away and campaign all you like... the language of the air is English...until it changes, use it.
I'm beginning to see the value of Airline Psychometric tests..
Ohcirrej
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There is no proof whatsoever that it would not have happened in the same circumstances had the two aircraft (and ATC) been speaking the same language.
IMHO, we should be using one language. WHATEVER it is!
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Fougamagister, the French Atc surely forgot you have spoken in french...and looking at your callsign, she called you in english...
(but she should have rememberd
)
It seems obvious that speaking only one language would bring a lot for safety...the problem is that everybody must be able to speak and understan this language properly!
If French atc had spoken english,we could have avoided some incidents or accidents but we could have created others due to misunderstanding in english.....
I think this is the reason why the "all english in frequency" try ended in Paris CDG...they had some problems with non native english speakers...and it was not a question of pride...stop with that now!!!!!
(but she should have rememberd
)It seems obvious that speaking only one language would bring a lot for safety...the problem is that everybody must be able to speak and understan this language properly!
If French atc had spoken english,we could have avoided some incidents or accidents but we could have created others due to misunderstanding in english.....
I think this is the reason why the "all english in frequency" try ended in Paris CDG...they had some problems with non native english speakers...and it was not a question of pride...stop with that now!!!!!
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Sorry Priscilla but that's no argument at all...The overriding factor from a purely safety point of view is that good communication is essential... it's up to the people in the industry to ensure that they are up to a required standard in this and other aspects of the job. Nobody is insisting that the proficiency in English should enable them to write a book... like waiters in a restaurant the requirement is very limited in the language ... most of the phrasing is repeated over and over again and easily understood...
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One Language
For safety reasons, and nothing else, there should be only one language in aviation. Presently that language is English. End of story, or is it? One could argue that a PPL on a local VFR flight flight should be allowed to communicate in the local language, as indeed is the case in many if not most countries.
However, a vast number of native English speakers have sadly fallen into the trap called "complacency" with regards to learning a foreign language. They feel they don't need it, since "everyone speaks English". The sad part is that they probably don't know what they are missing. I am writing this in what is my 3rd language. Danish being the first, German the second. Those 3 languages are mandatory from a very early age in school, and you will have to take English and either German, French or Spanish up to and including High School. I speak 3 languages fluently, and you could not begin to imagine the benefits it brings when travelling. Further, I am almost fluent in Swedish and Norwegian, understand a fair bit of French and Spanish, and am picking up on Dutch/Flemmish and Italian.
Now if the English were forced to take up language training in school, maybe they would not be quite so challenged when aviating in foreign skies, and would perhaps stop the endless and quite honestly disappointing bashing of anything "non-English", especially the French. The French have a deep understanding of the importance a language has on culture, and ferociously defend French. As well they should.
However, a vast number of native English speakers have sadly fallen into the trap called "complacency" with regards to learning a foreign language. They feel they don't need it, since "everyone speaks English". The sad part is that they probably don't know what they are missing. I am writing this in what is my 3rd language. Danish being the first, German the second. Those 3 languages are mandatory from a very early age in school, and you will have to take English and either German, French or Spanish up to and including High School. I speak 3 languages fluently, and you could not begin to imagine the benefits it brings when travelling. Further, I am almost fluent in Swedish and Norwegian, understand a fair bit of French and Spanish, and am picking up on Dutch/Flemmish and Italian.
Now if the English were forced to take up language training in school, maybe they would not be quite so challenged when aviating in foreign skies, and would perhaps stop the endless and quite honestly disappointing bashing of anything "non-English", especially the French. The French have a deep understanding of the importance a language has on culture, and ferociously defend French. As well they should.
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It is common practice at all Russian main Terminal Controls and Enroute centres for the Controller to have an english speaking translator working alongside them. Although one could argue that the Controller should speak good english and many do this is an extra safety consideration and I believe a common sense act on the part of the Russians who appreciate that language can be and is a problem...so on occasions it will be the translator you are hearing not the ATCO...
In the same way even the new 2 crew Russian aircraft, IL96, TU204 have a dedicated position for a radio operator which is always manned when the aircraft are used for international flights. Unfortunately the standard of english amongst Russian pilots is not good as for many years all R/T was done by a radio operator, but many are actively learning...
Trying/struggling to learn basic Russian at the moment I have nothing but admiration for their ATCO's and flight crews who have to operate in a foreign tongue...it cant be easy for anybody anywhere!
In the same way even the new 2 crew Russian aircraft, IL96, TU204 have a dedicated position for a radio operator which is always manned when the aircraft are used for international flights. Unfortunately the standard of english amongst Russian pilots is not good as for many years all R/T was done by a radio operator, but many are actively learning...
Trying/struggling to learn basic Russian at the moment I have nothing but admiration for their ATCO's and flight crews who have to operate in a foreign tongue...it cant be easy for anybody anywhere!
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Imagine they decide to speak only english in Moscow...tomorrow!! It will be a big mess!! It's obvious here that we cannot DECIDE to speak only english..but we have to be well prepared!
Yachtpilot....NO we need more than the usual phraseology!!! We need to have studied english from college classe and we need a very long training for comprehension and talking....atc need to be ready to say anything in engligh when they need to...We must have a regular training too....it's not so easy and require a lot of time from us and money and organisation from administration.
I think having a native english speaker with us is a good thing for non usual phraseology (emergency or medical problem for exemple, Russians had a good idea...)
I love learning languages but it is very difficult to reach the level required for a safe atc service...As I said before, the level is rising in France and we have more opportunity to work on english....
Boss Raptor...I'm trying to learn Russian too....Hopefully we don't have to speak russian on frequency so difficult!
Yachtpilot....NO we need more than the usual phraseology!!! We need to have studied english from college classe and we need a very long training for comprehension and talking....atc need to be ready to say anything in engligh when they need to...We must have a regular training too....it's not so easy and require a lot of time from us and money and organisation from administration.
I think having a native english speaker with us is a good thing for non usual phraseology (emergency or medical problem for exemple, Russians had a good idea...)
I love learning languages but it is very difficult to reach the level required for a safe atc service...As I said before, the level is rising in France and we have more opportunity to work on english....
Boss Raptor...I'm trying to learn Russian too....Hopefully we don't have to speak russian on frequency
so difficult!
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Nobody would deny the advantages of speaking more than one language.. practical and cultural advantages.. I do speak some Spanish and French...But stop screwing around with my life ( see my first posting ) and the lives of others with nonsence about culture..
Maybe we should all use the wrong frequencies... imagine the fun we could have not having a clue about what was going on around us....or maybe one of you would like to conact the relatives and loved ones of the dead pilot of the 360 and discuss the cultural advantages of speaking several languages...
Maybe we should all use the wrong frequencies... imagine the fun we could have not having a clue about what was going on around us....or maybe one of you would like to conact the relatives and loved ones of the dead pilot of the 360 and discuss the cultural advantages of speaking several languages...
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To get the record straight, the Streamline/Air Liberte runway collision in CDG a few years ago happened because ATC cleared an Air Liberte MD-83 to take off after they had cleared the Streamline Shed to cross the runway. Language was only a contributory factor, the main reason for the collision was a wrong clearance. There is no proof whatsoever that it would not have happened in the same circumstances had the two aircraft (and ATC) been speaking the same language.
Of course there is no proof whatsoever that it would not have happened had English (or French or Navajo or whatever the standard language is...) been spoken by all parties at all times. However, use of French did remove the last opportunity for the aircrew to stop this from happening. There was poor coordination in the tower and a raft of other things that went wrong, including the failure of the shed crew to ask a question when they were unsure about the clearance. However, the penalty for this error should not automatically be death. They were taxiing onto the runway for departure 1730 meters from the approach end of the runway which they could not see. Perhaps, just perhaps, hearing the controller say to another aircraft "cleared for takeoff runway 27" might have registered with them enough to prevent this from happening. It sure as hell didn't work out well the way it went down. I just think it's foolish to take aircrews out of the loop like this.
More details and perhaps a more articulate rant here
Dave
Edited to give credit where credit is due... looking back over the thread I see that Jerricho said this before me. Apparently I liked it so much I even quoted him without realizing I was doing so. I guess plagiarism is the most sincere form of flattery, no?
Last edited by av8boy; 17th Oct 2003 at 05:50.
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Dave...
Thank you for the clarification on the circumstances...nicely done.
In an age where aviation is becoming increasingly complex and demands on crew ever more focused on high levels of safety, something as obvious as a single language for communication should not even be considered as a subject for debate.
Language is no more than a tool... like any tool it has to be effective in its task and it has to be used correctly...I rather think that the fatuous objections to the tool made by some contributers here is less to do with the need for the tool...more to do with the country in which the tool was made...
As I said once before here...none of us flying today made the decision in favour of English being the accepted language...nevertheless, it is.
In all likelyhood.. if the decision was reconsidered by some safety commitee today I would be willing to bet that English again would be the language of choice .. for the very simple and obvýous reason that it is internationally the widest spoken language in the world. Either as a first language or as a chosen second language. ( Before anyone stars quoting China...I did say Internatonal )
Thank you for the clarification on the circumstances...nicely done.
In an age where aviation is becoming increasingly complex and demands on crew ever more focused on high levels of safety, something as obvious as a single language for communication should not even be considered as a subject for debate.
Language is no more than a tool... like any tool it has to be effective in its task and it has to be used correctly...I rather think that the fatuous objections to the tool made by some contributers here is less to do with the need for the tool...more to do with the country in which the tool was made...
As I said once before here...none of us flying today made the decision in favour of English being the accepted language...nevertheless, it is.
In all likelyhood.. if the decision was reconsidered by some safety commitee today I would be willing to bet that English again would be the language of choice .. for the very simple and obvýous reason that it is internationally the widest spoken language in the world. Either as a first language or as a chosen second language. ( Before anyone stars quoting China...I did say Internatonal )
Ohcirrej
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Yachtpilot makes an excellent point. Anybody else care to make comment reference the big "what if" ICAO stipulated that English was to become the only international language of aviation? It has been suggested beofre, but danced around nicely!
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""Language is no more than a tool... like any tool it has to be effective in its task and it has to be used correctly..."
That's the point..using correctly a language that is not yours is not easy...before removing all the other tools, be sure everybody will be able to use the remaining one!
It would be interesting to know if Germans ATC have comprehension problems with German pilots...do they use their mother tongue sometimes?? Do you know if German pilots speak english in the cockpit?
That's the point..using correctly a language that is not yours is not easy...before removing all the other tools, be sure everybody will be able to use the remaining one!
It would be interesting to know if Germans ATC have comprehension problems with German pilots...do they use their mother tongue sometimes?? Do you know if German pilots speak english in the cockpit?
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Sorry Priscilla but you're still missing the point...Nobody cares what language 2 pilots use to communicate in the cockpit...we DO care what goes on between THEM and ATC.
Yes it is unfortunate for those who are not native English speakers...it may be another hurdle to leap in aquiring a professional licence but learning to fly is difficult so is learning to fly instruments and learning systems and many many other aspects of modern aviation.....it's no excuse for not doing it properly...that is the only way to make it safe.
Yes it is unfortunate for those who are not native English speakers...it may be another hurdle to leap in aquiring a professional licence but learning to fly is difficult so is learning to fly instruments and learning systems and many many other aspects of modern aviation.....it's no excuse for not doing it properly...that is the only way to make it safe.
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Nobody cares what language 2 pilots use to communicate in the cockpit
It interests me!!! sorry! I also would like to know if German ATCs communicate in english...
Yachtpilot..I do agree with you, we have to use only one language on frequency..but only when ATCs and pilots are ready for that!!!
Look! It seems that you didn't understand properly what I said in all my posts..perhaps my english is not good enough to explain what I think.....hopefully I'm not speaking on a mike
It interests me!!! sorry! I also would like to know if German ATCs communicate in english...
Yachtpilot..I do agree with you, we have to use only one language on frequency..but only when ATCs and pilots are ready for that!!!
Look! It seems that you didn't understand properly what I said in all my posts..perhaps my english is not good enough to explain what I think.....hopefully I'm not speaking on a mike
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AV8Boy, thanks for the details of the CDG collision (I didn't want to clutter my own answer). If anything, they only serve to prove my point: aircraft accidents are the result of a long chain of events which taken separately, would not have ended up in an accident, but which taken together, made it inevitable.
That much is shown on every aircraft accident investigation - therefore I find it quite strange that a number of posts point fingers at the language issue without seeing the big picture like you.
Priscilla is quite right to underline that switching from one language to another would only displace the problem.
Cheers
That much is shown on every aircraft accident investigation - therefore I find it quite strange that a number of posts point fingers at the language issue without seeing the big picture like you.
Priscilla is quite right to underline that switching from one language to another would only displace the problem.
Cheers