Pilots New Vueling
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Good points, yes.
But seriously, do you really consider the situation at Spanair better? The company is dying, has no money, no institutional support left, strikes left and right, no one believes their chairman anymore because he is not keeping his promises (how could he?), new CEO and COO come from hard core LCCs but are nowhere to be seen............ seriously? do you really think it is better? If I were a JK pilot, I would be keeping SEPLA very tight next to me to make sure that I get paid - and I'd start looking for another job; a good job takes a while to find.
It would be totally insane to blame the situation at JK on the pilots' conditions - ridiculous as well. BUT, the overall situation of becoming fatter and fatter at Spanair, under SK union-friendly supervision, also is made worse by less cost efficient conditions by most workers. Not the reason for the demise, just another contributor.
It is truly amazing. You take a MAD-BCN flight on IB, then you take one on JK, then you take one on VY (and soon one on U2 or FR), and you look at the crews in the eyes and you think: same job, same product, same safety, same customer support, similar punctuality, double the pay. It does not make any sense at all.
As an aspiring career pilot, I prefer stability with slowly better pay conditions to a comfortable, short life; frankly, I would prefer to know that my company will not disappear after 11 years (JK's life) because of continuous mismanagement, including mismanagement and treatment of crew.
Just my two cents.
But seriously, do you really consider the situation at Spanair better? The company is dying, has no money, no institutional support left, strikes left and right, no one believes their chairman anymore because he is not keeping his promises (how could he?), new CEO and COO come from hard core LCCs but are nowhere to be seen............ seriously? do you really think it is better? If I were a JK pilot, I would be keeping SEPLA very tight next to me to make sure that I get paid - and I'd start looking for another job; a good job takes a while to find.
It would be totally insane to blame the situation at JK on the pilots' conditions - ridiculous as well. BUT, the overall situation of becoming fatter and fatter at Spanair, under SK union-friendly supervision, also is made worse by less cost efficient conditions by most workers. Not the reason for the demise, just another contributor.
It is truly amazing. You take a MAD-BCN flight on IB, then you take one on JK, then you take one on VY (and soon one on U2 or FR), and you look at the crews in the eyes and you think: same job, same product, same safety, same customer support, similar punctuality, double the pay. It does not make any sense at all.
As an aspiring career pilot, I prefer stability with slowly better pay conditions to a comfortable, short life; frankly, I would prefer to know that my company will not disappear after 11 years (JK's life) because of continuous mismanagement, including mismanagement and treatment of crew.
Just my two cents.
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"""at last!!
That is absolutely normal to speak spanish because vueling is a spanish airline. Procedures and communication may be done in english because this is the first language in aviation, but, you live in spain, you are hired by spaniards, so make an effort to speak the local language. Why will vueling hire english people who never make any effort in lerning foreign langiage, when there are many european (not only spanish) who speak english AND spanish? For me it is normal and urgent to make such a cleaning."""
Spanish Test is the most stupid thing I have ever heard ( if not ilegal, since when they were admited it was not a requirement).Is this test so important because most of spanish pilots barely comunicate in english or is this an argument to fire foreigners???
This is the point of view of someone who for SURE never had to work abroad.
I hope you never have to go to China , arabic countries,etc . But if you do , don`t mind !! They speak english there so You will have to learn english , only.
About an union or any kind of representativeness
Forget any kind of suport from Clickair Pilots. A flock of "peloteros " .Most of them all in some kind paying favors and/or more interested in beeing nice guys and tring to get some consideration from a managment that don`t consider pilots and made it clear recently. But they are unable to understand that.
That is absolutely normal to speak spanish because vueling is a spanish airline. Procedures and communication may be done in english because this is the first language in aviation, but, you live in spain, you are hired by spaniards, so make an effort to speak the local language. Why will vueling hire english people who never make any effort in lerning foreign langiage, when there are many european (not only spanish) who speak english AND spanish? For me it is normal and urgent to make such a cleaning."""
Spanish Test is the most stupid thing I have ever heard ( if not ilegal, since when they were admited it was not a requirement).Is this test so important because most of spanish pilots barely comunicate in english or is this an argument to fire foreigners???
This is the point of view of someone who for SURE never had to work abroad.
I hope you never have to go to China , arabic countries,etc . But if you do , don`t mind !! They speak english there so You will have to learn english , only.
About an union or any kind of representativeness
Forget any kind of suport from Clickair Pilots. A flock of "peloteros " .Most of them all in some kind paying favors and/or more interested in beeing nice guys and tring to get some consideration from a managment that don`t consider pilots and made it clear recently. But they are unable to understand that.
Last edited by A-3TWENTY; 7th Aug 2009 at 04:25.
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From another thread.
FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt, addressed ALPA’s annual Air Safety Forum and expressed concern for the quality of experience of captains in some of today’s airlines. “There are some airlines out there with senior pilots who have three years under their belt, and, unlike back then — they are going right into jets, flying long days in some of the busiest airspace in the world.” Babbitt says in his speech, “I’m not saying that you’ve got to have 10 or 15 thousand hours before you’re worth your salt, but there is something to be said for having been flying around the system a few seasons.”
Babbitt continues and states that even these “seasoned” pilots must use their collective knowledge and mentor the rest of the pilot group to enhance safety. “This needs to become part of our professional DNA. If you’ve got experience and you’re not sharing it, you’re doing a disservice to our profession.”
There are a lot of experienced Captains at ex-Clickair. And things have now changed since the rapid growth has stopped
But I am a little shocked to see how young and green looking some of the
ex-Clickair Captains are.
Is this true or not some guys coming to Click with 800-900 hours and two years right seat then bingo Captain ( 2500 hours ) if they are sharp enough ( and connected ) ?
The problem is the history of hurry up syndrome accidents rushing combined with etc.....
I've been told the Vueling new Sepla section ( once recognized )
will help stand up for a proper safety culture and to maintain high Maintenance standards , as well as defending working conditions, not punctuality at the cost of safety
Long term this is good for Vueling and they believe good for long term shareholders. Totally win/win for all.
" Constructive coperation " is what the new Independant Sepla Vueling will work towards.
Right on Jose Luis
FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt, addressed ALPA’s annual Air Safety Forum and expressed concern for the quality of experience of captains in some of today’s airlines. “There are some airlines out there with senior pilots who have three years under their belt, and, unlike back then — they are going right into jets, flying long days in some of the busiest airspace in the world.” Babbitt says in his speech, “I’m not saying that you’ve got to have 10 or 15 thousand hours before you’re worth your salt, but there is something to be said for having been flying around the system a few seasons.”
Babbitt continues and states that even these “seasoned” pilots must use their collective knowledge and mentor the rest of the pilot group to enhance safety. “This needs to become part of our professional DNA. If you’ve got experience and you’re not sharing it, you’re doing a disservice to our profession.”
There are a lot of experienced Captains at ex-Clickair. And things have now changed since the rapid growth has stopped
But I am a little shocked to see how young and green looking some of the
ex-Clickair Captains are.
Is this true or not some guys coming to Click with 800-900 hours and two years right seat then bingo Captain ( 2500 hours ) if they are sharp enough ( and connected ) ?
The problem is the history of hurry up syndrome accidents rushing combined with etc.....
I've been told the Vueling new Sepla section ( once recognized )
will help stand up for a proper safety culture and to maintain high Maintenance standards , as well as defending working conditions, not punctuality at the cost of safety
Long term this is good for Vueling and they believe good for long term shareholders. Totally win/win for all.
" Constructive coperation " is what the new Independant Sepla Vueling will work towards.
Right on Jose Luis
Last edited by Jimmy Hoffa Rocks; 11th Aug 2009 at 10:08.
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There are a lot of experienced Captains at ex-Clickair. And things have now changed since the rapid growth has stopped
But I am a little shocked to see how young and green looking some of the
ex-Clickair Captains are.
Is this true or not some guys coming to Click with 800-900 hours and two years right seat then bingo Captain ( 2500 hours ) if they are sharp enough ( and connected ) ?
The problem is the history of hurry up syndrome accidents rushing combined with etc.....
How the english guys use to say: An accident waiting to happen.
But I strongly believe that the merging with Vueling will increase trainning and mentality level.The focus will start to be safety instead of beeing punctual.
But I am a little shocked to see how young and green looking some of the
ex-Clickair Captains are.
Is this true or not some guys coming to Click with 800-900 hours and two years right seat then bingo Captain ( 2500 hours ) if they are sharp enough ( and connected ) ?
The problem is the history of hurry up syndrome accidents rushing combined with etc.....
How the english guys use to say: An accident waiting to happen.
But I strongly believe that the merging with Vueling will increase trainning and mentality level.The focus will start to be safety instead of beeing punctual.
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Quid pro quo
The language issue should be treated like some international agreements: bilateraly on a quid pro quo basis.
If in Germany they require german proficiency, in Spain we should require spanish proficiency... for german pilots (nothing personal!)
If in Holland they only require english, in Spain we should only require english for dutch pilots.
And so on...
Right now, there are more spanish pilots abroad than the opposite, so let's just keep things they way they are now...
How could we make spanish proficiency mandatory if many spanish people cannot have a career in Barcelona because they can't speak catalonian?? That is nonsense.
Let's focus on uniting and protecting ourselves because the management staff is growing smarter an smarter and we became dumber and dumber each day!
If in Germany they require german proficiency, in Spain we should require spanish proficiency... for german pilots (nothing personal!)
If in Holland they only require english, in Spain we should only require english for dutch pilots.
And so on...
Right now, there are more spanish pilots abroad than the opposite, so let's just keep things they way they are now...
How could we make spanish proficiency mandatory if many spanish people cannot have a career in Barcelona because they can't speak catalonian?? That is nonsense.
Let's focus on uniting and protecting ourselves because the management staff is growing smarter an smarter and we became dumber and dumber each day!
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This is true and fair.
This is true and shame.
This may be true if ex-training "responible" from ex-Click doen NOT takes over again....
But remeber that SEPLA is a union mainly created to support IBERIA pilots and I bet they died (lost all of their power as an union) on November 2001 (I think) when IBERIA Management closed the Company.... this caused SEPLA to bend donw on their knees and loose respect and credibility.... Fact? 7 years fighting to get a new Convenio that will also die end of this year...... I don't see any capability or power of representating pilots at Vueling (Marketing name of the company bought by Clickair) . Let's see what's happen.
The language issue should be treated like some international agreements: bilateraly on a quid pro quo basis.
If in Germany they require german proficiency, in Spain we should require spanish proficiency... for german pilots (nothing personal!)
If in Holland they only require english, in Spain we should only require english for dutch pilots. And so on...
If in Germany they require german proficiency, in Spain we should require spanish proficiency... for german pilots (nothing personal!)
If in Holland they only require english, in Spain we should only require english for dutch pilots. And so on...
But I am a little shocked to see how young and green looking some of the ex-Clickair Captains are.
Is this true or not some guys coming to Click with 800-900 hours and two years right seat then bingo Captain ( 2500 hours ) if they are sharp enough ( and connected ) ?
Is this true or not some guys coming to Click with 800-900 hours and two years right seat then bingo Captain ( 2500 hours ) if they are sharp enough ( and connected ) ?
I've been told the Vueling new Sepla section ( once recognized )
will help stand up for a proper safety culture and to maintain high Maintenance standards , as well as defending working conditions, not punctuality at the cost of safety
will help stand up for a proper safety culture and to maintain high Maintenance standards , as well as defending working conditions, not punctuality at the cost of safety
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Cuando entra en vigor el nivel Oaci 4 de Castellano para los extranjeros de Vueling? Simple curiosidad.
Se espera que todas las compañías españolas adopten esta nueva normativa?
Saludos
Se espera que todas las compañías españolas adopten esta nueva normativa?
Saludos
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en vigor el nivel 4 de castellano para los extrajeros de vueling? nunca se ha hablado de este requisito.. no lo pondran nunca en el contrato, ademas hay extrajeros entre los rapresentates sindacales..
hay otro paises que aplican un nivel 4 que no sea de ingles para trabajar? en alemania no te piden nivel 4 como normativa..tampoco en francia.
es un requisito pedido da las companias, como decir que piden 500 horas de A320. no hay ninguna normativa que yo sepa.
hay otro paises que aplican un nivel 4 que no sea de ingles para trabajar? en alemania no te piden nivel 4 como normativa..tampoco en francia.
es un requisito pedido da las companias, como decir que piden 500 horas de A320. no hay ninguna normativa que yo sepa.
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N-1. Amigo
We do need to have a beer and talk.
What do you propose as alternative to Vueling Sepla ?
You prefer to deal with management on your own.
No representation for pilots ?
N-1, Would you care if your salary was reduced by 600 Euros ?
Are you interested in working part time ( no seniority list for you ) or a forde leave of absence in October ?
If you are a Clickair pilot , do you eat hot meals ?
You are not interested in having a loss of insurance paid for by the company then.
Do you have a pension plan or care about that at all ?
Even Vueling management want to have someone they can deal with.
The new Vueling Sepla section is getting a lot of support and new afiliates. The power is starting to shift pro pilots, is that a problem for you ?
Are you interested in working for Air Europa for example ?
How do you think Air Europa got good conditions ?
Como ?
Air Europa Sepla ( is a better model ) had a strike and was successful in the Embraer battle. Air Europa Sepla is a better modelo
The president of Sepla is from Spanair.
We do need to have a beer and talk.
What do you propose as alternative to Vueling Sepla ?
You prefer to deal with management on your own.
No representation for pilots ?
N-1, Would you care if your salary was reduced by 600 Euros ?
Are you interested in working part time ( no seniority list for you ) or a forde leave of absence in October ?
If you are a Clickair pilot , do you eat hot meals ?
You are not interested in having a loss of insurance paid for by the company then.
Do you have a pension plan or care about that at all ?
Even Vueling management want to have someone they can deal with.
The new Vueling Sepla section is getting a lot of support and new afiliates. The power is starting to shift pro pilots, is that a problem for you ?
Are you interested in working for Air Europa for example ?
How do you think Air Europa got good conditions ?
Como ?
Air Europa Sepla ( is a better model ) had a strike and was successful in the Embraer battle. Air Europa Sepla is a better modelo
The president of Sepla is from Spanair.
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Hola Estrellafugaz:
Pensaba que los extranjeros habían recibido un e-mail en el que decía que debían tener un nivel X de Castellano antes de una fecha prefijada, pero igual como bien dices no es así.
Seguro que el que me lo ha dicho no tenía ni idea, ya sabes que la gente habla mucho y la mitad de lo que dicen es mitad verdad y mitad mentira.
Abrazo
Pensaba que los extranjeros habían recibido un e-mail en el que decía que debían tener un nivel X de Castellano antes de una fecha prefijada, pero igual como bien dices no es así.
Seguro que el que me lo ha dicho no tenía ni idea, ya sabes que la gente habla mucho y la mitad de lo que dicen es mitad verdad y mitad mentira.
Abrazo
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Hago una incursión en el PPRUNE para aclarar una cosa: SEPLA no es un sindicato de Iberia, sino un sindicato de pilotos de toda clase de compañías aéreas. Es cierto que el sindicato nació de personal de Iberia, pero únicamente porque en aquel entonces había una sola compañía. Hoy en día, SEPLA tiene secciones sindicales en muchas aerolíneas españolas: SEPLA-Air Nostrum, SEPLA-Air Europa, SEPLA-Binter, SEPLA-Spanair, etc.
Veo razonable y nada descabellado que los pilotos de la nueva Vueling quieran formar una sección de SEPLA llamada SEPLA-Vueling, que defienda los intereses de los trabajadores pilotos de esta compañía. En esta hipótesis, el SEPLA-Vueling sería autónomo del SEPLA-Iberia, aunque pertenecería a una estructura superior llamada SEPLA que podría defender intereses comunes de pilotos de líneas aéreas ante autoridades como Fomento. Para temas "locales" de discusión con la dirección de Vueling, para eso estaría el SEPLA-Vueling.
Conclusión: que es lógico que los trabajadores de Vueling se organicen, y en el caso de los pilotos, lo normal es que se constituyan en una sección del SEPLA, que al fin y al cabo es el sindicato natural de todo piloto en España.
(I don't know if some of you do not understand the text in Spanish, but I decided to use this language as I was not replying a particular non-Spanish member of the forum. I'll be glad to translate myself if someone is missing the message.)
Veo razonable y nada descabellado que los pilotos de la nueva Vueling quieran formar una sección de SEPLA llamada SEPLA-Vueling, que defienda los intereses de los trabajadores pilotos de esta compañía. En esta hipótesis, el SEPLA-Vueling sería autónomo del SEPLA-Iberia, aunque pertenecería a una estructura superior llamada SEPLA que podría defender intereses comunes de pilotos de líneas aéreas ante autoridades como Fomento. Para temas "locales" de discusión con la dirección de Vueling, para eso estaría el SEPLA-Vueling.
Conclusión: que es lógico que los trabajadores de Vueling se organicen, y en el caso de los pilotos, lo normal es que se constituyan en una sección del SEPLA, que al fin y al cabo es el sindicato natural de todo piloto en España.
(I don't know if some of you do not understand the text in Spanish, but I decided to use this language as I was not replying a particular non-Spanish member of the forum. I'll be glad to translate myself if someone is missing the message.)
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Sepl-Binter?
Perdón por el offtopic, pero ¿Sepla-Binter?
El Sepla Binter se acabó a base de talonario. Los tres delegados cobraron su dinero (unos muchos y otro unas migajas), vendieron a sus coincidentes laborales y están ahora jubilados.
El que hacía las veces de apuntador (delegado suplente) es ahora el nuevo jefe de la sección sindical. Supongo que viendo lo que el amo les dió a los anteriores, querrá su parte.
De todas formas, SEPLA son las personas que lo conforman. Si son miserables, así será la sección sindical. Si son luchadores y honestos (como UX), conseguirán lo que el colectivo quiere
El Sepla Binter se acabó a base de talonario. Los tres delegados cobraron su dinero (unos muchos y otro unas migajas), vendieron a sus coincidentes laborales y están ahora jubilados.
El que hacía las veces de apuntador (delegado suplente) es ahora el nuevo jefe de la sección sindical. Supongo que viendo lo que el amo les dió a los anteriores, querrá su parte.
De todas formas, SEPLA son las personas que lo conforman. Si son miserables, así será la sección sindical. Si son luchadores y honestos (como UX), conseguirán lo que el colectivo quiere
