Indonesia p2F for low timer is back!!!!
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you are missing the point
that is very easy to say. close the eyes when you see / hear something that you do not want to see/hear... and then tell me who is the troll?!
can you relate to the simple straight question?
can you relate to the simple straight question?
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30-40 years back people were starting on the right seat in a Jet directly from flight school (in EU many company) and those people are today capable Captains, TRI, TRE... They acquire skills and knowledge during the career.
Can anyone show me the difference as I do not see it? Pay attention I am talking about flying not paying as the way someone gets into the cockpit is irrelevant here.
Can anyone show me the difference as I do not see it? Pay attention I am talking about flying not paying as the way someone gets into the cockpit is irrelevant here.
Today Sascha, pilots are selected primarily based on their ability to pay funds to participate in P2F schemes. Children want to play Buck Rogers? Then their parents pay the big bucks so they can play. Most parents, and some students pay for additional training if they fall behind. No washouts as was the case some 30 to 40 years ago. Got the $$$$??? the puppy mills will get ya through. No money is too much to get you in the right seat of a shiny jet. All it takes is money first then hopefully some ability. However, no family member of mine will ride any airline that is part of a P2F scheme. You Sascha, should have the same concerns for your family too.
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Still just BS from your side... Nothing constructive, no ability to comprehend, absolute blindness, feeling superior in your small world.I bet you vote for the right wing too...
You are just hopeless...
You are just hopeless...
Captjns
p.s. By the way Sascha, found this recent post from you. I think I answered my own question.
. At present I am "flying" in Indonesia and this is a curs on its own...
ATPL with1700tt, 1100large turboprop, 1500me, b737tr...all in all unfortunately not much forth in to days aviation.
.
ATPL with1700tt, 1100large turboprop, 1500me, b737tr...all in all unfortunately not much forth in to days aviation.
.
Last edited by TheBigD; 6th Mar 2014 at 14:50.
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captjns thank you for trying. this was more mature attempt to make a point. well done. (no irony here)
Just a question, how much do you actually know about the selection process 30-40 years back, and quality of training? I do not know much about it but still…
I know that people were coming in not just from good renowned and reputable schools but also from small schools, flight and even gliders clubs. There was a period in 50s and 60s when aviation boomed and company were taking anything they could get in and those are todays most senior captains with 10s of 1000 of hours.
So I can agree with you to the certain point, but as before so is today, you have all sorts of school and ways to obtain your license. I am convinced that you can teach monkey to fly the aircraft it is only mater of time and effort (if you like it better – money).
And that is all what it is about. Life long learning, by flying everybody will learn eventually and at some point will satisfied criteria/standards. (nearly, but we should avoid talking about extremities). If someone fly for 1000 of hours he will eventually became capable aviators! Especially now days when piloting is so automatizied and pilots are just operators, driver no more no less no matter how much you would like to see it otherwise.
Regarding flying with companies that do the p2f is question of principles and feelings and I do not want to get into that discussion.
I am strongly against p2f, but it is much bigger than you try to make it. It is our reality and in my humble opinion fight should be fought at the CAA level or some/any sorts of regulatory instances. It does not help to mug on your colleagues, young and desperate individuals that are fighting for their place on this overcrowded sky.
It would be just great to get the free training, TR, get pay for work from day 1, but this is not reality and bigger forces are involved than you try to make them…
Happy landings
Just a question, how much do you actually know about the selection process 30-40 years back, and quality of training? I do not know much about it but still…
I know that people were coming in not just from good renowned and reputable schools but also from small schools, flight and even gliders clubs. There was a period in 50s and 60s when aviation boomed and company were taking anything they could get in and those are todays most senior captains with 10s of 1000 of hours.
So I can agree with you to the certain point, but as before so is today, you have all sorts of school and ways to obtain your license. I am convinced that you can teach monkey to fly the aircraft it is only mater of time and effort (if you like it better – money).
And that is all what it is about. Life long learning, by flying everybody will learn eventually and at some point will satisfied criteria/standards. (nearly, but we should avoid talking about extremities). If someone fly for 1000 of hours he will eventually became capable aviators! Especially now days when piloting is so automatizied and pilots are just operators, driver no more no less no matter how much you would like to see it otherwise.
Regarding flying with companies that do the p2f is question of principles and feelings and I do not want to get into that discussion.
I am strongly against p2f, but it is much bigger than you try to make it. It is our reality and in my humble opinion fight should be fought at the CAA level or some/any sorts of regulatory instances. It does not help to mug on your colleagues, young and desperate individuals that are fighting for their place on this overcrowded sky.
It would be just great to get the free training, TR, get pay for work from day 1, but this is not reality and bigger forces are involved than you try to make them…
Happy landings
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@ thebigd
Discussion on what is ok to pay for and what is not is useless.
Should the training be free of charge, should we pay just for initial training, TR, TR and Line Training, work for free for a while, for ewer….
Things are as they are now. That is name of the game, take it or leave it…
In my case I started back in 2001 than stop – no founds. 2004 PPL than ATPL modular, then in 2006 FAA CPL with Instructor ratings and year of instructing followed by JAA CPL. In 2008 I paid my first TR with good T&C unfortunately company lost its contract after 10mdr. In 2011 another TR on my account with great T&C. Both times TR was pre requirement to get the job and I had Letter of Intend in return. Unfortunately company ceased their operation after 14 month, so out of work again. In panic (as I started quiet late in my life) bought third TR with hope only and hope only. It was waste…
Now flying on old turboprop with not so good T&C compare with previous jobs but still ok for the place where I am and still flying.
Now you judge…
Will I pay? No I will not! But I do understand people who do that.
By the way, every single dolar was my own hardly earned.
Discussion on what is ok to pay for and what is not is useless.
Should the training be free of charge, should we pay just for initial training, TR, TR and Line Training, work for free for a while, for ewer….
Things are as they are now. That is name of the game, take it or leave it…
In my case I started back in 2001 than stop – no founds. 2004 PPL than ATPL modular, then in 2006 FAA CPL with Instructor ratings and year of instructing followed by JAA CPL. In 2008 I paid my first TR with good T&C unfortunately company lost its contract after 10mdr. In 2011 another TR on my account with great T&C. Both times TR was pre requirement to get the job and I had Letter of Intend in return. Unfortunately company ceased their operation after 14 month, so out of work again. In panic (as I started quiet late in my life) bought third TR with hope only and hope only. It was waste…
Now flying on old turboprop with not so good T&C compare with previous jobs but still ok for the place where I am and still flying.
Now you judge…
Will I pay? No I will not! But I do understand people who do that.
By the way, every single dolar was my own hardly earned.
Last edited by sascha410; 6th Mar 2014 at 16:22.
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You paid for 3 type ratings? How much did that cost you? Honestly, looking back, do you think you would have been better off working as a CFI with more money in your savings account or paying for the 3 type ratings? I'd just like to hear your honest opinion.
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sascha410
You can talk the talk lad but at the end of the day ain't nobody gona have self pity on you here!
Weither you paid for the 3 TR with your own money or lottery money that's for you to keep! Bottom line is it appeared you wanted the easy way but it costed you more and it will continue to.
Like what other members said, you would have been better off gaining valuable experience and building your hours through GA or instructing (BUT do not instruct because you want to build hrs). Instruct because you want to pass valuable knowledge and for your students to better than you.
My take is you either put up with what you are currently doing or stop and become a politician!
Weither you paid for the 3 TR with your own money or lottery money that's for you to keep! Bottom line is it appeared you wanted the easy way but it costed you more and it will continue to.
Like what other members said, you would have been better off gaining valuable experience and building your hours through GA or instructing (BUT do not instruct because you want to build hrs). Instruct because you want to pass valuable knowledge and for your students to better than you.
My take is you either put up with what you are currently doing or stop and become a politician!
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@thebigD
I paid 3 TR 37000EUR, 11+20+16K. As I went modular way at the end of the day whole that I spend on flying was exactly the same as an expensive integral training in EU. Mind it here including all FAA instructor ratings as well and whole training on ME.
Looking back, definitely it was worth it, and it was not that expensive as it might sounds. Both turboprop TR paid back quickly as the jobs ware well paid. So even the company closed down rather relatively soon after I join them no money was lost. Contrary on the second occasion I even earned enough to pay for the third TR.
As I said before (because of my age) the third TR was act of panic and gambling which I lost so that one you can call a stupid move but from my perspective at that time it was worth it and I was wrong. But you never know.
Working as an instructor I could not afford on a long run as the salary was just enough to survive if even so.
At the end of the day I do not regret any of it and will do it all over again apart from last TR.
@gear up
You can everything read it as you want to and live happily with it. Doing so you are running the danger of missing the point. You certainly did it here.
Pity?! Whay? During the whole these years I had a nice life and thoroughly enjoyed it a long the way.
As you can see it above, I got it easy way and it did not cost me more than only F ATPL if you did it by any chance at Roskilde. But the way to get here was good and enjoyable. I did what I wanted to do and I gain life long experience in many ways.
Ones again, I like flying for the sake of it. I prefer smaller aircraft then the big ones, I prefer hands on flying to the operation of the airliner, I prefer GA to airline flying. According to my preference I was also applying but now days we cannot pick and chose the jobs as they are not many around.
All in all I would not be better off with your good advice…
And back to where all this started, my point still remains. No reason to mug on your colleagues or might be there is a bit but I am positive than all those people at the end of the day became experienced and capable aviators.
In my point of view if we want to change something about p2f the pressure should be placed at the regulatory authorities as they can stop this in a blink of an eye.
Indonesia did it by enforcing 250hrs on type, USA raised experience entrance level for the right seat, New Zeeland is fining company that takes money for work… I am just a driver, and do not know how, but I know that it can easily be done if there is a will to do it and stop this shameful tendency of paying to work…
I paid 3 TR 37000EUR, 11+20+16K. As I went modular way at the end of the day whole that I spend on flying was exactly the same as an expensive integral training in EU. Mind it here including all FAA instructor ratings as well and whole training on ME.
Looking back, definitely it was worth it, and it was not that expensive as it might sounds. Both turboprop TR paid back quickly as the jobs ware well paid. So even the company closed down rather relatively soon after I join them no money was lost. Contrary on the second occasion I even earned enough to pay for the third TR.
As I said before (because of my age) the third TR was act of panic and gambling which I lost so that one you can call a stupid move but from my perspective at that time it was worth it and I was wrong. But you never know.
Working as an instructor I could not afford on a long run as the salary was just enough to survive if even so.
At the end of the day I do not regret any of it and will do it all over again apart from last TR.
@gear up
You can everything read it as you want to and live happily with it. Doing so you are running the danger of missing the point. You certainly did it here.
Pity?! Whay? During the whole these years I had a nice life and thoroughly enjoyed it a long the way.
“Bottom line is it appeared you wanted the easy way but it costed you more and it will continue to.“
“you would have been better off gaining valuable experience and building your hours through GA or instructing „
All in all I would not be better off with your good advice…
And back to where all this started, my point still remains. No reason to mug on your colleagues or might be there is a bit but I am positive than all those people at the end of the day became experienced and capable aviators.
In my point of view if we want to change something about p2f the pressure should be placed at the regulatory authorities as they can stop this in a blink of an eye.
Indonesia did it by enforcing 250hrs on type, USA raised experience entrance level for the right seat, New Zeeland is fining company that takes money for work… I am just a driver, and do not know how, but I know that it can easily be done if there is a will to do it and stop this shameful tendency of paying to work…
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P2f
Eagle jet has started a 500h line training on NG based in asia....
Is it Lion air?
Program cost €67,500 yes €67,500
No contract after the 500h
Anybody got the email?
Is it Lion air?
Program cost €67,500 yes €67,500
No contract after the 500h
Anybody got the email?
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Eagle jet has started a 500h line training on NG based in asia....
Is it Lion air?
Program cost €67,500 yes €67,500
No contract after the 500h
Anybody got the email?
Genade!!!!!!!!!!!
Is it Lion air?
Program cost €67,500 yes €67,500
No contract after the 500h
Anybody got the email?
Genade!!!!!!!!!!!
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Latetonite writes....
Only if these miscreants were forced to wear a scarlet P2Fer on their shirts so they can be readily identified when interviewing at their next carrier, then promptly shown to the exit
Whoever goes down this path buying Type Ratings and IOE, and ends up with no job, probably doesn't deserve better.
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The industry is going from Bad to Worse to Worst
I dont know why this thread is under Indonesian P2F for low timer is back as there has been no confirmation of which country in Asia the training is to take place.
Another question is how does a company like EJ which is based in the USA offer a flying program in Asia to be paid in Euros. Someone is making some big dollars for their own back pocket.
How did the aviation industry get to a point where an airline would accept the F/O to work for no pay and the F/O pay for the Capt salary. And for the airlines that would engage in such a deal, you would need to question the companies integrity/standards/safety that it has, and is such a company in the business of being an Airline.
Pilots are accepting working conditions worse than many 3rd world prostitutes, they are working for nothing and paying for the privilege to do so. It has to STOP
I dont know why this thread is under Indonesian P2F for low timer is back as there has been no confirmation of which country in Asia the training is to take place.
Another question is how does a company like EJ which is based in the USA offer a flying program in Asia to be paid in Euros. Someone is making some big dollars for their own back pocket.
How did the aviation industry get to a point where an airline would accept the F/O to work for no pay and the F/O pay for the Capt salary. And for the airlines that would engage in such a deal, you would need to question the companies integrity/standards/safety that it has, and is such a company in the business of being an Airline.
Pilots are accepting working conditions worse than many 3rd world prostitutes, they are working for nothing and paying for the privilege to do so. It has to STOP
Last edited by el_capitano; 16th Mar 2014 at 03:08.
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there is a agent in INDIA used to be associated with MR KUSH.. offering B777 first officer porgram.. hahahaha.. now that scary.
B737NG.. that EJ offering could end up in Turkey.. some where.. you know american.,.Geography is not there strong point.. is everything besides america..
SCOOT is pretty bad it self... bank guarantor and pay 50% for a over priced b777 typerating.
B737NG.. that EJ offering could end up in Turkey.. some where.. you know american.,.Geography is not there strong point.. is everything besides america..
SCOOT is pretty bad it self... bank guarantor and pay 50% for a over priced b777 typerating.
Last edited by jetjockey696; 16th Mar 2014 at 06:59.
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nnnnnnnCV.com is glad to announce, that our educational program, by which you can get both LINE TRAINING and PILOT JOB OFFER is finally open for applications! This year the program is extremely limited, as we are planning to admit only a few selected lucky ones! So don't hesitate to apply ASAP!
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Fellow aviators, you may find many more exciting job offers here.
Get the latest job offers by following us on:
Discuss career opportunities with fellow pilots!
If you are not intended recipient or you have received this e-mail by a mistake, please accept our apologies and notify the sender immediately.
P.S You may find plenty job offers at our website!
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- 100 hours as a PIC;
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Fellow aviators, you may find many more exciting job offers here.
Get the latest job offers by following us on:
Discuss career opportunities with fellow pilots!
If you are not intended recipient or you have received this e-mail by a mistake, please accept our apologies and notify the sender immediately.
P.S You may find plenty job offers at our website!
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I am not sure if I get the point here. If Lion Air has the 250hrs on type restriction to join, then what is the point in joining a p2f scheme for line training?
Surely if anyone has at least 250hrs on type, I would expect a direct entry similar scheme in order to join the airline?
Surely if anyone has at least 250hrs on type, I would expect a direct entry similar scheme in order to join the airline?
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Eagle jet has started a 500h line training on NG based in asia....
Is it Lion air?
Program cost €67,500 yes €67,500
No contract after the 500h
Anybody got the email?
Price has now gone up to €79,000 for 300 hour line training .
Slots for line training is getting lesser and lesser while flying schools are pumping new graduates like nobody business.
Supply and Demand and as usual, just need to continue telling the world there are huge shortage of pilots and high demand for them, flying schools are laughing all the way to the bank
Is it Lion air?
Program cost €67,500 yes €67,500
No contract after the 500h
Anybody got the email?
Price has now gone up to €79,000 for 300 hour line training .
Slots for line training is getting lesser and lesser while flying schools are pumping new graduates like nobody business.
Supply and Demand and as usual, just need to continue telling the world there are huge shortage of pilots and high demand for them, flying schools are laughing all the way to the bank