DGCA Expat Phase-Out
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@4runner
Maybe not where you come from ... BUT ... any ELECTED GOVERNMENT OWES IT'S PEOPLE EXPLANATION AND ACCOUNTABILITY FOR IT'S POLICIES.
and if Im not mistaken, that is exactly what jimmygill is trying to do.
But yeah, in the general sense, I do agree with what you said.
No one owes us $hit.
and thats why we FOUGHT for our Independence from the #$#$#@@@ Brits.
and this is exactly why the once huge and mighty "British EMPIRE" is now reduced to a piece of __________. (America's poodle ??
)
No one owes you anything in this world. I was going to say that "no one owes you s@#t" but I remembered how sensitive you are..
and if Im not mistaken, that is exactly what jimmygill is trying to do.
But yeah, in the general sense, I do agree with what you said.
No one owes us $hit.
and thats why we FOUGHT for our Independence from the #$#$#@@@ Brits.
and this is exactly why the once huge and mighty "British EMPIRE" is now reduced to a piece of __________. (America's poodle ??
)
Last edited by shanx; 5th Apr 2010 at 06:40.
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Funny how in all the countries I have worked its just in India where there is this foul cry to get rid of all foreigners....
* Has a unemployed pilot population of the same size as the employed one, so 50% pilot employment. Which country? Belize, Barbados, Panama, Taiwan, China?
* How many of them are functional democracies?
Imagine if all the other countries of the world were to make all Indian pilots return their homeland then you might see some serious issues with you low time guys getting jobs for a long long long time ...
When they are not needed they will be sent back home. As far as expats in India are considered they are not needed as of today. So phase out is happening and we will help that happen as much as we can.
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Funny how in all the countries I have worked its just in India where there is this foul cry to get rid of all foreigners....
Worked in Australia Sir ???
Racial attacks in Australia: Why Indians only?
Another 'racial attack' on Indian student in Australia
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Indians speak out on Australian attacks
Australia: Indian university students protest racist attacks
Ever wondered why almost all DEROGATORY slurs such as "NIGGER", "SAND NIGGER" etc, have had their origins in English speaking western nations ???
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Imagine if all the other countries of the world were to make all Indian pilots return their homeland then you might see some serious issues with you low time guys getting jobs for a long long long time ...
To add to that, Im sure you know that this pretty much applies to ANY INDUSTRY, ANYWHERE in the world.
It is more to do with the political situation prevailing rather than talent, merit or safety etc.
Remember the dot-com or IT "bubble" that burst in the year 2000 ?
Thousands of engineers and software programers who were in "demand" in the USA were all given the pink slip when they were no more needed.
It is all about basic demand-supply thing and complying with the prevailing regulations. Economics 101 !
good luck and happy job hunting,
remember just because you are a pilot doesnt make you captain material, there are many many career FO's across the world... so its true to say not all pilots here will be captains in the future
Because all your posts reek of frustration, disgruntlement, and insecurity.
Why dont you argue with VALID POINTS related to the topic, instead of using the pathetic "safe-way-out" and insecure approach of calling a wannabe a wannabe and reminding him/her for the UMPTEENTH time that he has only 200 hours ?
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We paid for flight training, paid takes in $$$ in USA, Canada etc and were NOT allowed to even work part time.
We obey your country's laws and hence returned to our countries after we were done with our training.
We obey your country's laws and hence returned to our countries after we were done with our training.
My point is not if you worked while in the USA.
Its that you did basically what your railing against:
1. You are not happy with Expat pilots in India. (your perogative)
2. You would like to see Indians employed in India (nothing wrong with that)
3. The Indian Gov. allows national companies to hire foreign pilots.
But Shanx and Jimmy......you went out and hired non indian (Foreign) pilots to get your training. They weren't expats...for obvious reasons.
Whether jimmygill or I, or any other Indian wants to launch a political campaign against expats (which by the way is YOUR interpretation), it is entirely OUR prerogative.
Yes, we did get our tickets in the USA, but we have paid good $$$ for it. The USA govt. has not done any generous charity and given free flight training.
We give you business and $$$, we get service in return. Lets keep it that way.
We give you business and $$$, we get service in return. Lets keep it that way.
You seem to avoid the whole point of what I am saying.
Expats give you a Service and you give them money.
See the correlation with your statement?
Ask your governments to try and plug all the possible loop holes used by foreigners to gain permanent residency or citizenship unscrupulously
If they would Deport every person in the country Illegally....people who wish to follow the proceedures and enter could do so.
Its a national shame that if you wander across the border you can stay....but if you want to apply for a visa and stay legally...you'll have a hell of a wait.
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But Shanx and Jimmy......you went out and hired non indian (Foreign) pilots to get your training. They weren't expats...for obvious reasons.
1. The Indian student when he goes to USA/Canada/Philippines brings business to these countries and provide a certain employment. And precisely for this reason students are welcome there. The cash flows into the host country.
2. On the other hand when an expat serves in India, he/she takes away a job. Thats why they are not welcome. The cash flows out of the host country.
You would like to see Indians employed in India
employment and work legally with all the rights of a worker and without any encumbrances on basic human freedom. In fact this is the only way left for the human race to ensure that we don't eat up the earth.
Presently world is not so open. Everything is 'need' based. The 'need' is determined by lobbyists and enforced by governments. If MicroSoft thinks they need more foreign IT worker, they lobby and get the VISA caps extended. If UK needs more doctors they get the doctors from around the world. If middle east requires construction and public hygiene workers they get them. If the Middle East needs pilots they get these from UK/USA/OZ/India. If you are a B737 commander you can come to India, if you are a construction worker it will be hard to get in. If I am an IT expert I can go and work in USA, if I want to teach flying, It doesn't matter what skills I have, I will not get an opportunity to teach there, unless I can buy my way and be ready to pay for work.
I just point out that flight training in the USA does nothing to improve training in India.
Last edited by jimmygill; 5th Apr 2010 at 16:31.
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There are a few subtle difference between expats-in-India and Indian-students-abroad.
1. The Indian student when he goes to USA/Canada/Philippines brings business to these countries and provide a certain employment. And precisely for this reason students are welcome there. The cash flows into the host country.
2. On the other hand when an expat serves in India, he/she takes away a job. Thats why they are not welcome. The cash flows out of the host country.
1. The Indian student when he goes to USA/Canada/Philippines brings business to these countries and provide a certain employment. And precisely for this reason students are welcome there. The cash flows into the host country.
2. On the other hand when an expat serves in India, he/she takes away a job. Thats why they are not welcome. The cash flows out of the host country.
1. The indian student abroad has taken money out of the Indian Aviation economy.
2. You yourself have taken your own cash (for whatever reason) out of your own Country. You've also denied an Indian instructor a Job. (maybe the quality and honesty in training is lacking in India....I don't know...but if it is...maybe you'll want to fix that?
)Sure ban all Expats.....But don't you think you've missed half the problem?
What about indigenous Aviation? Don't you think it would be a good idea to develope some before you ban everyone?
Really come on....hows aviation supposed to develope? Its one of the last occupations with an apprentice system.
Maybe 50% of Indians wouldn't be unemployed if all the students were not off in another country getting trained.
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@privateer01
Let me clarify. I am NOT against expats working in India and have never written anywhere before that expats should be sent out of India or anything on those lines.
Infact, whenever someone has written anything like "kick out the expats", or "get rid of expats", I have always replied strongly against that post because such statements are poor in taste.
I would say it again, trying to get accountability from the Government you have elected does not equate to a political campaign to get rid of expats.
In the USA, everything is clearly spelled out regarding hiring of aliens in different non-immigrant categories of visas by the USCIS.
The USCIS infact always has a "skills shortage list", and it is clearly mentioned that if an employer has to sponsor an alien for a work visa (like the H1B visa), then he has to show sufficient documentation that an American citizen is not available for the advertised job vacancy.
In India, we do not have anything clearly documented regarding work permits and visas for foreigners. Yes, there is the "Foreigner's act of 1946", BUT it is only a broad guidline regarding immigrants and non immigrants and has never since been amended regarding hiring of foreigners for specific skills or jobs.
This basically has lead to a situation where the bean counters can have their way depending on the economic scenario, without worrying too much about complying with the current regulations, since nothing restrictive is mentioned anyway other than merely meeting minimum requirement for a FATA and security clearance by the Ministry of Home Affairs.
Hence, the only option left for the Indian national is to appeal or request the government for actual data regarding statistics like FATA details etc and putting the same up for open discussions to see to what extent importing labour is justified.
Let me clarify. I am NOT against expats working in India and have never written anywhere before that expats should be sent out of India or anything on those lines.
Infact, whenever someone has written anything like "kick out the expats", or "get rid of expats", I have always replied strongly against that post because such statements are poor in taste.
I would say it again, trying to get accountability from the Government you have elected does not equate to a political campaign to get rid of expats.
In the USA, everything is clearly spelled out regarding hiring of aliens in different non-immigrant categories of visas by the USCIS.
The USCIS infact always has a "skills shortage list", and it is clearly mentioned that if an employer has to sponsor an alien for a work visa (like the H1B visa), then he has to show sufficient documentation that an American citizen is not available for the advertised job vacancy.
In India, we do not have anything clearly documented regarding work permits and visas for foreigners. Yes, there is the "Foreigner's act of 1946", BUT it is only a broad guidline regarding immigrants and non immigrants and has never since been amended regarding hiring of foreigners for specific skills or jobs.
This basically has lead to a situation where the bean counters can have their way depending on the economic scenario, without worrying too much about complying with the current regulations, since nothing restrictive is mentioned anyway other than merely meeting minimum requirement for a FATA and security clearance by the Ministry of Home Affairs.
Hence, the only option left for the Indian national is to appeal or request the government for actual data regarding statistics like FATA details etc and putting the same up for open discussions to see to what extent importing labour is justified.
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2. You yourself have taken your own cash (for whatever reason) out of your own Country. You've also denied an Indian instructor a Job. (maybe the quality and honesty in training is lacking in India....I don't know...but if it is...maybe you'll want to fix that? )
Indians: Where is your 'adhiti devo bhava'
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I have read this thread and the others with similar sentiments for the last several months and resisted posting. I have noticed a constant in those with the most virulent anti-expat views. It appears that those who most want us to leave are the currently unemployed. I find it interesting that those employed as first officers consistently state that they are glad that we are here. They tell us that they learn from us are trusted to improve their skills more by us and enjoy learning from our years of experience with the equipment. Many of us have been flying longer than all the Indian airlines except NACIL have been in existence. I try to teach something to my FO's every time I go to work. It helps them and keeps me sharp. My airline has been upgrading pilots as fast as they can and phasing down expats since I came to India two years ago. I fully expected them to be done with us at the phase out date that the DGCA originally set. The airline (which has all Indian management) decided that they needed us longer and petitioned for an extension. Still the day is fast approaching when we all will be gone. The real problem in India is that many young people decided for whatever reason to invest in careers in aviation than there will ever be enough jobs for either here or abroad. Some of you need to seriously come up with a plan B and maybe C and D. Just as elsewhere in the aviation world some who are deserving of a job will be left outside and yes, some who are unworthy will get the golden ticket and have the career that others covet. Expats are at worst a short term bump in your road of life. A bump that you probably can not do anything about. I suggest that you spend your time preparing for your future by working towards getting hired at an airline by networking. Did it ever occur to you that the expat has made friends while here in India and that those friends could be offended by your attitude towards them. The Indian pilot has spent hours in the cockpit with expats but does not know you at all. Because we stick out because of our uniforms and yes skin color I am often approached by young people in airports who want to talk about aviation and becoming a pilot or CPL holders looking for advice on getting jobs. I always take the time to talk to them but have seen locals blow them off with, "there are no jobs and to many people wanting them, forget it". I wish you all the best of luck in your job search, but why don't you give this topic a rest? It is not changing anything and I can't see it changing anything until the economics of airline flying in India change.
Jet
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It appears that those who most want us to leave are the currently unemployed. I find it interesting that those employed as first officers consistently state that they are glad that we are here.
I fully expected them to be done with us at the phase out date that the DGCA originally set. The airline (which has all Indian management) decided that they needed us longer and petitioned for an extension.
Did it ever occur to you that the expat has made friends while here in India and that those friends could be 'offended' by your attitude towards them.
The Indian pilot has spent hours in the cockpit with expats but does not know you at all.
Because we stick out because of our uniforms and yes skin color I am often approached by young people in airports who want to talk about aviation and becoming a pilot or CPL holders looking for advice on getting jobs. I always take the time to talk to them but have seen locals blow them off with, "there are no jobs and to many people wanting them, forget it".
I wish you all the best of luck in your job search, but why don't you give this topic a rest? It is not changing anything and I can't see it changing anything until the economics of airline flying in India change.
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I am also being phased out as an expat working here for 4 years. What I cannot comprehend is why some new expats are being processed to replace us because the DGCA says 4 years is the max one can work at one Indian Airline.
This is a real paradox as the new guys are still expats and will require all the lengthy transition time to integrate and yet we could remain fully trained within the company.
The company would prefer us to stay but also cannot seem to get by the 4 year DGCA rule wherever it came from.
This is a real paradox as the new guys are still expats and will require all the lengthy transition time to integrate and yet we could remain fully trained within the company.
The company would prefer us to stay but also cannot seem to get by the 4 year DGCA rule wherever it came from.
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@skyjet
Totally agreed sir.
Most of us have already executed our plan B (or plan C), and that is why we do not have any loans to repay, are in a position to comfortably buy a type rating (if needed) and are earning while still being in touch with aviation.
However, that does not prevent us from trying whatever it takes to appeal against the extension of the DGCA deadline for expat phase out.
Everyone is entitled to a view in a democracy. While we may not agree with each other, what is more important is that we agree to disagree.
In all honesty, the driving force for most of the Indian "unemployed" pilots against expats working in India in general are two :
1. The fact that foreign countries like USA, Canada etc do not allow foreigners to work in entry level pilot jobs. (There are exceptions to this, but I can confidently say that all the Indians working right now in USA as junior flight instructors are working ILLEGALLY without any proper documentation or are PAYING TO WORK/FLY.)
2. The Anti-India sentiments expressed by several expats. I dont need to mention names or threads. It's too obvious if one scrolls through the various threads on pprune.
The real problem in India is that many young people decided for whatever reason to invest in careers in aviation than there will ever be enough jobs for either here or abroad. Some of you need to seriously come up with a plan B and maybe C and D.
Most of us have already executed our plan B (or plan C), and that is why we do not have any loans to repay, are in a position to comfortably buy a type rating (if needed) and are earning while still being in touch with aviation.
However, that does not prevent us from trying whatever it takes to appeal against the extension of the DGCA deadline for expat phase out.
Everyone is entitled to a view in a democracy. While we may not agree with each other, what is more important is that we agree to disagree.
In all honesty, the driving force for most of the Indian "unemployed" pilots against expats working in India in general are two :
1. The fact that foreign countries like USA, Canada etc do not allow foreigners to work in entry level pilot jobs. (There are exceptions to this, but I can confidently say that all the Indians working right now in USA as junior flight instructors are working ILLEGALLY without any proper documentation or are PAYING TO WORK/FLY.)
2. The Anti-India sentiments expressed by several expats. I dont need to mention names or threads. It's too obvious if one scrolls through the various threads on pprune.
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Shanx,
1. "The fact that foreign countries like USA, Canada etc do not allow foreigners to work in entry level pilot jobs. (There are exceptions to this, but I can confidently say that all the Indians working right now in USA as junior flight instructors are working ILLEGALLY without any proper documentation or are PAYING TO WORK/FLY.)"
Exactly the point that many here have made. I am not occupying an entry level job. My Airline upgrades FO's at the minimum experience level to Captain and has consistently reduced the number of expats employed. They have tried, with varying success, to recruit Indian commanders also and yet still can not man the airline without expats. When they can man with all locals I am sure they will as expats are financially not a good investment.
2. "The Anti-India sentiments expressed by several expats. I don't need to mention names or threads. It's too obvious if one scrolls through the various threads on pprune."
With this I can agree wholeheartedly. I cringe when I read some of the things posted here. I try to always remember that I am a guest here.
Happy Landings,
Jet
1. "The fact that foreign countries like USA, Canada etc do not allow foreigners to work in entry level pilot jobs. (There are exceptions to this, but I can confidently say that all the Indians working right now in USA as junior flight instructors are working ILLEGALLY without any proper documentation or are PAYING TO WORK/FLY.)"
Exactly the point that many here have made. I am not occupying an entry level job. My Airline upgrades FO's at the minimum experience level to Captain and has consistently reduced the number of expats employed. They have tried, with varying success, to recruit Indian commanders also and yet still can not man the airline without expats. When they can man with all locals I am sure they will as expats are financially not a good investment.
2. "The Anti-India sentiments expressed by several expats. I don't need to mention names or threads. It's too obvious if one scrolls through the various threads on pprune."
With this I can agree wholeheartedly. I cringe when I read some of the things posted here. I try to always remember that I am a guest here.
Happy Landings,
Jet
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every decision depends about how many votes can be garnered by making a populist decision, or, simply not making one. logic, safety, or plain old common sense do not prevail.
its all about staying in power.
there is no other place in this galaxy where inexperianced pilots can take on the decision making arm of a national industry. it happens here because the people running aviation just dont have a thorough understanding of the industry. most qualified type rated ones do not say a word, to remain pollitically correct, or just realise its futility.
i do feel that the total absence of any proper AVIATION STRUCTURE is causing the problems and unless the Indian government is serious in resolving the ENTIRE INDUSTRY, the best case scenario is this constant putting out of little fires.
coming back to your point about releasing 4 year expats, and at the same time, expending hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace these guys with new expats is simple, and silly. the rule book says so, so its done. never mind if they "throw out the baby with the bath water."
its all about staying in power.
there is no other place in this galaxy where inexperianced pilots can take on the decision making arm of a national industry. it happens here because the people running aviation just dont have a thorough understanding of the industry. most qualified type rated ones do not say a word, to remain pollitically correct, or just realise its futility.
i do feel that the total absence of any proper AVIATION STRUCTURE is causing the problems and unless the Indian government is serious in resolving the ENTIRE INDUSTRY, the best case scenario is this constant putting out of little fires.
coming back to your point about releasing 4 year expats, and at the same time, expending hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace these guys with new expats is simple, and silly. the rule book says so, so its done. never mind if they "throw out the baby with the bath water."
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The rules are confusing and contradictory and are unfortunately more often than not bent and/or broken by the very fact that they make no sense at all.
Theses airlines are run by ruthless bean counters who will chop and prune any expenditure deemed non essential and expats have come under the scanner for cost cutting. The moment they see an out expats will be history. So rest assured there is no conspiracy or vendetta against local crews (employed and unemployed). Money talks and if they could afford to make do without the expats it would have happened a long time ago.
And for the schmuck who said smoking craters will bring back the expats... get a life.
Theses airlines are run by ruthless bean counters who will chop and prune any expenditure deemed non essential and expats have come under the scanner for cost cutting. The moment they see an out expats will be history. So rest assured there is no conspiracy or vendetta against local crews (employed and unemployed). Money talks and if they could afford to make do without the expats it would have happened a long time ago.
And for the schmuck who said smoking craters will bring back the expats... get a life.
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Hearing from several sources now that expat extensions are forthcoming including beyond 4 years at any particular Indian airline.
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A couple of smokin' holes with local pilots 'in charge' and it will be permanent.