DGCA Expat Phase-Out

[jimmygill]

Total number of hours just indicate experience quantitatively but I guess quality is more important in theend ..... so all this discussion that pilot A is better because of this much number of hours of experience is all nto very much justified...
Just a thought .....

Sure, there is a difference between having 30 years of experience and having one year of experience 30 times over. Unfortunately the thread was not supposed to go into that direction. The particular and curious aim was already highlighted in the starting post.

[rdr]

i suppose a clot like you SHANX cannot understand English.
maybe, take some English lessons and go read my post again.

[shanx]

rdr,

likewise, you JERK.

P.S I've learnt enough English to earn a high school certificate, a college degree, and a pilot licence from an English speaking country.
Beyond this, I don't really feel the need to further hone my skills in a foreign language, .. and definitely not to try and interpret posts in an anonymous forum written by insecure TURDS like you.
Adios !

[soaring.high]

@rdr,

what a **** country you come from, with a **** system, and airlines with unqualified **** pilots.

Now this is a usage of offending language to its maximum.You are a pilot (I assume a senior pilot).Can not you try to convey your message using a language which can fall in to the catagory of "socially acceptable"? I feel personally offended because of the S@@@ word you used for my country.

i suppose a clot like you SHANX cannot understand English.
maybe, take some English lessons and go read my post again

Those two lines quoted above tell the whole story about who needs a language lesson and who does not.
I make a kind request that every body should behave them selves and be a little careful about using the right kind of language (socially acceptable) while typing a post (Be it Indian pilot or Expat,Senior Pilot or Juior.) Do not take advantage if your anonymity please.

[Togue]

jimmygill for me is a troublemaker, low time pilot with a bad attitude who will change his mind after a couple of years. He has to grow up and be a man. Accept your country's reality and forget about trying to stand out at others cost.
What will you do if you get an airline job and after one or two years the indian aviation goes down? Will you try to get a job abroad? What would you think if a moron in Africa or UAE starts a thread like yours?

[jimmygill]

jimmygill for me is a troublemaker, low time pilot with a bad attitude who will change his mind after a couple of years.

I will take that compliment too. Except for the 'bad attitude' and 'low time" part, which you have to argue out, that is if you have faculties enough to argue.

He has to grow up and be a man. Accept your country's reality and forget about trying to stand out at others cost.

His country's reality cannot be described without including him. He is not trying to stand out at others but rather stand out for others (that includes him also). Your provincial perception is hindering you from seeing the reality of the post. I will never like to grow to be a man what you think a man ought be. I think even chickens are better than the men who don't stand up. At least the chicken doesn't feel insecure about a loss of job.

What will you do if you get an airline job and after one or two years the indian aviation goes down? Will you try to get a job abroad? What would you think if a moron in Africa or UAE starts a thread like yours?

Well, for starters a very good friend of mine has suggested politics, and I guess even if Indian aviation sinks like stone, there still will be career opportunities in politics.

But to come to the point which you are making, what If I have to look for jobs abroad, Canada, USA, Australia, UAE, Africa, Nepal or wherever on the earth, I will go and look and if the law of that land permits me to work there I will get that job. If I find someone in Africa or UAE with same level of moronity as I have, I will first salute him, and tell him, "I respect you, at last I found a match ", I do not have any disrespect for the laws of any country and the rights which the citizens of those countries may have, and the effort which they may put it broaden those rights.

[jimmygill]

Gents !
Stats Time : As date, the ATPL's being issued are of series 40xx.
Since 1 Jan 2008, there have been 626 ATPL's issued till date.
@ Jimmy, I am interested in the Number of Pilots working on FATA. Expat, Indian or Alien.
Do you think the RTI can help deliver those stats ?
Also do not forget that more Ex-Defense Pilots join Airlines as Direct entry Captains than Expats. And even this is one of the reason's for Senior Co-Pilots not being upgraded.
India is an awfully small country.
Silent.

Thanks Silent,
Thanks for the number of new ATPL, so what do we have 626 new ATPL holders with average of one year experience after ATPL.


What we are doing is compiling information about current employment, Ideally this figure ought to come from the Employment Exchanges.

We have an act by the parliament EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES (COMPULSORY NOTIFICATION OF VACANCIES) ACT 1959. Its old and is being overlooked by almost all organisations, because fine for non reporting of vacancy is mere 1000 Rs. In current rupees 2010 equivalent of 1959s 1000 Rs is INR 35,000.00.
The database at these exchanges is nonexistent and faulty. But we have the 2005 right to information act, that should help us.


I noted your point and will incorporate in the request, I will wait for another week before I finalise the request.

[silent_scream]

What we are doing is compiling information about current employment, Ideally this figure ought to come from the Employment Exchanges.

True. But considering DGCA used to publish it as part of the Air Transport Statistics till March 2008, I think a RTI to DGCA might also be able to reveal it.

And I like the idea of pestering the Employment Exchange. They are least expecting an RTI asking Number of Pilots employed in Scheduled, Non Sched and Private Operators.

I shall write back if I have more input in the coming week.
All the best.

PS: If the Thread were to have a different Title, it would'nt be a Battle ground.

Silent.

[privateer01]

Ban every pilot from India whos not an Indian.

We'll watch the accident rates.

[shanx]

PS: If the Thread were to have a different Title, it would'nt be a Battle ground.

True.

However, this or other threads would'nt become battle grounds if only people have the patience and more important, an open mind to read and understand what the aim and/or motive may be.

If you see almost any thread involving any brawls between experienced pilots vs local pilots (especially low time pilots or wannabes), you'll see that in almost all cases, the experienced pilots or expats resort to attacking the person and NOT the thread/subject, and remind the wannabe that he/she is a good-for-nothing unemployed sod with 200 hours.
And of course, most of them are ever willing to post in bold letters, about how we are soon going to have SMOKING HOLES IN THE GROUND without their "expertise" or "experience".

Ridiculing, chiding or belittling someone junior, younger, far-less-experienced-and-qualified is purely a manifestation of one's own frustrations and insecurity.

Just a quick reminder ... for all the so called "senior" veterans who like to bash or ridicule "unemployed jobless 200 hour wannabes" :

Please dont assume every 200 hour wannabe is a high school passout and sitting unemployed and idle. Many of these wannabes are post graduates working successfully elsewhere, are engineers, lawyers, or running their own family business and in many cases making much more money than your average airline pilot.

[privateer01]

At 200 hrs I thought I knew everything about how to fly an airplane....

Same at 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 6400 hrs etc.

Thank god I finally got enough experience to realize I'm an idiot.


Btw....My experience with folks who leave a successful career to pursue thier dream of avaiation......has been less then stellar.

I'd venture the opinion that Beech V-tails have proved.....being a brilliant doctor doesn't make you a brilliant pilot....

[rdr]

shanx, i suggest you go on a diet and lose some weight 1st.
are you really a pilot, or are you cabin crew ??

[iflytb20]

@bewildered

Total number of hours just indicate experience quantitatively but I guess quality is more important in theend ..... so all this discussion that pilot A is better because of this much number of hours of experience is all nto very much justified...
Just a thought .....

Agree with you completely sir. I always believed that it is HOW you got your hours and not how many that's important.

@privateer01

Ban every pilot from India whos not an Indian.
We'll watch the accident rates.

No offence to you sir, but considering the fact that a majority of the last few incidents [involving a hull loss / serious damage] in the country had NON-India PICs, the accident rate should be worth watching.

Cheers

[privateer01]

None taken.

It would be interesting.

So many factors....

[COCOCHANEL]

shanx I agree with your previous post. The comment from rdr was really uncalled for...just ignore it....got a lot of good advice from you on pilot related topics...whatever your real name is, I don't doubt for one second that you are a pilot...trained in california from what I gathered.

[jimmygill]

@private err

At 200 hrs I thought I knew everything about how to fly an airplane....

Same at 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 6400 hrs etc.

Thank god I finally got enough experience to realize I'm an idiot.

Btw....My experience with folks who leave a successful career to pursue thier dream of avaiation......has been less then stellar.

I'd venture the opinion that Beech V-tails have proved.....being a brilliant doctor doesn't make you a brilliant pilot.

What about those who are able to realize that they are Idiot at 200 hrs. At least they will save aviation 6200 hrs of embarassment, or may be even more.
You may be at 12800 hours now and you know hardly anything about safety.

Ban every pilot from India whos not an Indian.
We'll watch the accident rates.

Think about what you are saying, and what kind of light does it throw on you, isn't it insecurity which has driven you to these lows.



@rdr

shanx, i suggest you go on a diet and lose some weight 1st.
are you really a pilot, or are you cabin crew ??

Is this all you have to offer to your colleagues, using 'cabin crew' where you would have used other expletives. How many decades in that wide-body does it take a man to fall to such disrespecting level towards people who work with him. Your mental makeup appears just like those Sharukhans, possibly with lot more grey hair.

[DesiPilot]

Jimmy,

I agree with your cause, but disagree with a lot of other things. First of all, PPRUNE is not a place to get these numbers. Perhaps, you want to hire a lawyer and file an RTI with DGCA. Of course assuming DGCA has those numbers. In DGCA those clowns do not know what the current CPL or ATPL number is forget about giving you the demographics.

Secondly, the url you posted for the expat FO is way dated. It is from 2007. As of now there are ZERO expat first officers working for IndiGo, Kingfisher, Jet Lite, Paraways, Air India EX, Indian Airlines, Blue Dart and Alliance. I am not too sure but there may be a few expat FO's in Air India and Jet, but thats on their 777 fleet.

There are no Sr FO in IndiGo or Jet Lite or JET who are not considered for command training. Kingfishers policy of upgrading only in ATRs had bit them in their behind, almost all of the ATPL holders from KF has joined IndiGo and many of them are flying as a Captain.

So in short, Jimmy, you are barking at the wrong tree. May be its time you go and knock on DGCA's door.

[privateer01]

Nope.

Not insecurity....I've already admitted to being an Idiot at times.

What we have here is an individual thats upset about Ex-pat pilots.

Right or wrong doesn't matter to me. Indian companies hire them and the indian government allows them to. It may be expat pilots he's upset about but its an Indian problem.

Often times rules, policies, and proceedures can mitigate lack of experience.

So can culture. Both company culture and national.

However, Its hard to refute you gain experience by doing.

I certainly don't stoop to attacking anyone personally.

I just suggested they ban all Expats and see what happens.

Care to venture a guess at what the outcome would be?

As far as realizing your an idiot at 200 hrs......well realizing ones ignorance is great.....however realizing what your ignorant about is another battle.

If one were to say at 200 hrs...."ok there's alot I don't know"....well fine. Thats a start.

Realizing what it is you don't know and aquiring that knowlege is a tougher battle....and one that can only be conquered by the correct experience.

[jimmygill]

What we have here is an individual thats upset about Ex-pat pilots.

Entirely not true, I belong to a piece of this earth which has been open to all world all along its history, and I have no intention to change this basic all welcoming character of this land.

But in an increasingly 'flattening-world' openness has become skewed. Most western countries because of there resources have placed protectionist policies to protect their own work forces.

Indian being a third world developing country doesn't have those measures. I am not upset with the expats, but with my government not delivering on the promises made.

Right or wrong doesn't matter to me. Indian companies hire them and the indian government allows them to. It may be expat pilots he's upset about but its an Indian problem.

Indian problem, Indian solution. If the forum is global, big deal, all ideas welcome.

Often times rules, policies, and proceedures can mitigate lack of experience.
So can culture. Both company culture and national.

Rules and policies, thats what we are trying to get.

However, Its hard to refute you gain experience by doing.
I certainly don't stoop to attacking anyone personally.

Of course its hard to refute, but what is the required minimum experience? Why is it so low?

I just suggested they ban all Expats and see what happens.
Care to venture a guess at what the outcome would be?

Thanks for clarifying this,

As far as realizing your an idiot at 200 hrs......well realizing ones ignorance is great.... however realizing what your ignorant about is another battle.

If one were to say at 200 hrs...."ok there's alot I don't know"....well fine. Thats a start.

Realizing what it is you don't know and aquiring that knowlege is a tougher battle....and one that can only be conquered by the correct experience.

t

Quiet agreeable, but this world is not so open, for the 200 hrs wannabe in India that experience starts with a f/o job in an airliner, a fact of the matter. Thats what its all about, a struggle to get that chance to learn. We have great odds stacked against us. But, Cest' la vie.



But if any expat or non-expat says that expats are the knights in shining armour saving the Indian flyers with the their skills and experiences, I must disagree, because any expat who has worked here will tell you how difficult is it for them bring in a better safety culture, and a big fraction of these will also tell you that it isn't even their secondary intent.

[privateer01]

"But in an increasingly 'flattening-world' openness has become skewed. Most western countries because of there resources have placed protectionist policies to protect their own work forces."

You would seem to advocate the same policies for India.

I hence infer that you would like LESS expat pilots working in India.

The information you wished to gather would also seem to support that conclusion.

As would your references to a political solution.

I really would prefer if you'd be clear.

Do you want the Expat pilots out of India?

I rather think you'd like to see Indians in India have more opportunity.

Can't fault you for that view as its been the view of pilots probably since one of the Wrights went first.

I'd agree that the primary motivation of expat pilots are Dollar signs.

There are some perhaps that enjoy passing on knowlege or perhaps enjoy India and its culture....But honestly...they wouldn't be there if not for the money.

On another note:

I've had a few 250 hr first officer...and a couple from pilot mills....including one that paid for thier 500 hrs of jet time.

Frankly it makes you have to work about twice as hard.

How much experience should a Captain have when the First officer has 200 hrs?