Zest Airways MA60 crash landing in Caticlan - Boracay?

[plane whisperer]

Amen

[B747-800]

my crews like me!

Mr. B747-800 do you really have to sweep general statement in your posts? You keep on badmouthing on anyone you want on this forum. You keep on naming names, You even have the guts to badmouth on CAAP the higher authority in the country. Be careful on what your posting. Calling somebody you don't know unprofessional, and even calling somebody Capt. Loudmouth. Based on your posts you are no different with Capt. Loudmouth, and you act very very professional on that. if you really are a Wide Body Captain I can't imagine how your FOs and SOs think about you. I pity the crew that flies with the "feeling Capt. Perfect I know eveything"

why don't you face facts: zest airways is an unprofessionally run operation run by cpt. loudmouth. or can you say something different of him? have you talked to his former pilots and crews in the other airline he worked before as vp operations? aren't the cabin crews happy that he left there?

or did you talk to the former/present crews in the airline where he flew before he retired? what's their opinion about him?

have you talked to the people who are daily suffering under his regime, who are being shouted at by him, cursed by him and called bad words?

fortunately i did talk to them during my stay in the islands and their opinion is the same as mine and many others.

but back to the topicwich is: zest airways MA60 crash landing in caticlan

guess that you also spoke to the pilots who are flying daily this peace of flying steel called ma60 into caticlan and are risking daily their and their passengers life and limbs, haven't you?

[ads1963]

Any update on the investigation?

what's up over in the Philippines? Is there any update on the investigation of this accident or is it just another white wash investigation as it also happens here in Thailand?

[sweetdad05]

Investigation

The AAIIB of the Philippines has already done their investigation though decline to release it's report publicly as usual. However, in my discussion with reliable sources the pilot made an error even after being reminded by his FO of their situation prior to the crash...i doubt if the real result will be released for public consumption. We must accept that this is not NTSB, FAA or JAA where initial investigations are being published as soon as available until the final investigation report is made.

[Sharpie]

Post # 24.

It appears that my thoughts in post 24 may be close to being correct that the accident is more of pilot induced rather than an aircraft fault.

We may never learn the truth a la 'the land of smiles'!

[B747-800]

@sharpie

It appears that my thoughts in post 24 may be close to being correct that the accident is more of pilot induced rather than an aircraft fault.

We may never learn the truth a la 'the land of smiles'!

thanks for the update. so zest air put all the liability onto the poor crew!

in your post 24 http://www.pprune.org/4644931-post24.html you've said:

Why just charge the crew?

Why before doing so or even contemplating such an action fully investigate the whole operator set-up.? Why shoot the messenger?

i underwrite this without any hesitation. did the philippine caa do a safety audit on zest air and when was the last one? did they pass or did they find reasons that zest air should not operate?

would certainly begin looking at the training of all pilots; ground as well as flight training. Was it adequate, are the crew trained in CRM, how many check rides do they perform into 'short' airstrips, who teaches them such 'low' approachs that nessesitate road closures to permit landings, are they operating outside of the aircraft's performance envelope. Have a very good look at the operator's culture; look at the senior flight management; the company financial strength. Investigate fully all aspects of the operation before 'shooting the pilots'.

i've spoken to a crew of lao airlines with whom zest air seems to have some type of cooperation in both technical and operational aspects. i was surprissed to learn that the crews were only trained on a c class simulator and never underwent a full emergency training.

this might be also one of the secondary causes to blame in this crash landing. according to the lao crew the pilot follow strict military discipline and there is no crm or culture in the cockpit: i am in command and you do what i tell you and don't object to my action.

As you should be well aware of, an accident may not be the result of just hitting a runway; it could be the result of many factors, poor airmanship, inadequate training, company pressure,peer pressure , poor CRM, crew status, or a host of other factors in place well prior to an accident, all coming together as the 'Swiss Cheese' example. Result. an accident.

i underwrite this also 100%. the lao guys told me that zest air is training their people without proper sylabulus and training aids. its like: okay guys you know how to fly and that's what you gonna do here with the ma60. fly it and land it and be punctual and save fuel.

the objections of the vp ops are not being listened to. he is left alone and has to scramble to get things organized. poor g!

the management only worries on how to earn money but not about safety standards, training and proper aircraft planning. according to the lao crew their are take-offs which are overloaded by as much as 5% from manila because zest air has to accomodate pax and cargo. more than often the reduced payload on to in caticlan is exceeded and papers are made looking good.

I hope that RP authorities can and do complete a thorough investigation into this accident in light of many other undershoots or over-runs in the past few years. There appears to be deficiencies in basic flying standards.

Happy safe flying!

in thailand you have one2go, the philippines has zest air. money talks in investigations and the result is being properly discussed and adjusted before its release. this is also the reason why the islands will maintain the banana island status with faa in the cat 2.

i've just seen an interesting article about this status here:

http://philippineairspace.**********...ntil-2010.html

The Philippines may have to wait until next year for its aviation rating to be upgraded to category 1 status as the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines (CAAP) has yet to complete the FAA’s safety compliance checklist to qualify for an upgrade. The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) was also reviewing the progress of the Philippines as it sent its own men last January to evaluate its technical capability.

any result from easa already? are you guys in the island being downgraded to blacklist status?

The U.S. Department of Transportation’s Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) found in November 2007 that the Philippines failed on six out of the seven components of the FAA’s aviation audit which encompasses international safety standards set by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).

These are:
1. primary aviation legislation,
2. specific operating regulations,
3. technical guidance,
4. qualified technical personnel, licensing and certification,
5. continued surveillance obligations and
6. resolution of aviation safety issues.

my fair guess: none of the points above has been addressed properly so faa and easa can sign off on it.

Among specific details being questioned by the FAA are:
1. the pencil marks on airmen licensure tests,
2. poor record keeping due to the absence of librarians,
3. no updated handbooks or master copies for handbooks on airworthiness, aircraft, and pilot inspection, and
4. lack of personnel training.

money makes the philippines go and also the aviators there.

FAA found it in compliance with ICAO standards. However, after a reassessment in 2005 deficiencies were noted, particularly the promised amended and consolidated legislation on Civil Aviation. The current law, Republic Act 776, which was enacted on 20 June 1952, otherwise termed as the Civil Aeronautics Law of the Philippines, was no longer found to be adequate to support the growing complexity of world aviation safety regulations, and the Philippine government was made aware of it after the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York.

The Philippines came out fine in 2002 because it promised the FAA that the Civil Aviation Authority legislation was coming out soon as it was already submitted in Congress for its approval.

promisses in the islands seem to be as good as the guy who is promissing it.

is this senator arroyo a relative - as usual in the islands - of the president?

Despite the presence of ICAO foreign technical consultants, CAAP is bent on hiring personnel with standards lower than what would be required for one to be a qualified inspector.

right dude, hiring guys who need to line their pockets!

James Hooker, former chief of the ICAO flight safety consultancy panel for the Philippines, wrote in a document dated April 8, 2008 that CAAP people had been dismissive of ICAO recommendations and questioned the United Nations agency’s authority to propose ways on how the agency might overcome the downgrade. ICAO consultants working with the CAAP for months have become “very, very frustrated” with how the country’s officials have been handling the problem. CAAP has yet to fulfill the technical requirements in areas where the FAA found it remiss, and that many of the FAA requirements were still on the to-do list. “They are doing it little by little. We don’t understand anymore if they want an upgrade or they want to remain in Category 2 forever.”
After that statement, the Philippine government sought his replacement and he was relieved by Peter Weiss who now works together with 4 other consultants.
It remains to be seen whether the ICAO, FAA, and now EASA will allow such attitude on compliance and whether it will remain to be engaged with the civil aviation authority in the Philippines as they review the situation to qualify the Philippines for a Category 1 rating.

philippines the republic of bananas and good aviation officials. zest air showed again that they were able to get away with hurting people without being blamed for but it was a "simple pilot's error".

and these simple pilots error might cost the life of people but nobody seems to care over there!

[basic]

Crash Crash Crash!!!!

Just wait till they land in Runway 24 in caticlan in wet and gusty conditions! Stunt Captains here we go! just remember your passengers are not dummies but with blood flowing in there body

Remember the more they land in caticlan the more they get better. go Gazo!

[ads1963]

Does anyone have a copy of the investigation report?

[ecureilx]

report ??

Reading some of the past incidents where the reports were 'less than conclusive' .. I am not sure if a report will come, if at all it does come ..

BTW, I was watching the MA-60s in Manila. Compared to the Dorniers and all other TurboProp aircraft I have seen or flown on, including the BN-2 and AN32s, somehow the MA 60's seem to have a very noticeable nose-down attitude at the time of touch down .. I can post some pictures, if I figure out how to ..

Of late, atleast I noticed SeaAir claiming to be the 'fastest flight to Paradise .. ' wonder if Zeste is catching up, regardless of a less than advanced winged aircraft, compared to the Do-328

Is it because of the fast approaches Zeste pilots are making, or do they plan on getting a three-point landing all the time, or simply does the aircraft have a higher approach speed ?

Just wondering out loud .. not to degenerate into a fighting match ..

BTW, I noticed the Zeste A 320s are in full operation .. Wonder how is the load factor. Atleast the MA 60s had 6 pax exiting, for the two Boracay flights I observed.

[ex146]

you guys know what "MA" on the MA-60 stands for?


--Maling Airplane, hehehe.

jumbolinos land on caticlan every day for months and we never doubted its capability...

we just hope that incident never happened again. just keep everything in the box guys. fly safe..

[ecureilx]

jumbolinos.

By any chance, did the jumbolino 146 land in Basco ?

I saw a picture, with a BAe 146 in the background, and titled Basco !

Curious, as to the short field performance of the 146 !!

[ex146]

very short field

yup, we used to fly there. very short field indeed sir. and the slope in basco is one on the reasons why only few planes in the phils could operate there.. and did i mention the 146 doesnt have reverse thrust and autobrake?

aaahhhh i love my 146.. miss her too..

[ecureilx]

146 @ Basco

Well, maybe a thread drift, but while in Basco, I thought the Do-328 landed pretty fast and short. Must be really close for the 146, even with it's after Speed Brakes.

Anyway, I still wonder why the Zeste's refleeting got rid of some of the excellent STOL aircraft and focussed on A320 and MA 60s.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

[RAfault]

i heard another one of their MA-60 clipped the same wall in Caticlan where the first incident aircraft came to rest after a hard landing. it flew back to MNL as non revenue flight after an hour... tsk! tsk! tsk!

[B747-800]

@RAfault

i heard another one of their MA-60 clipped the same wall in Caticlan where the first incident aircraft came to rest after a hard landing. it flew back to MNL as non revenue flight after an hour... tsk! tsk! tsk!

what's new with these "air jeepney operator" zest air with cpt. loudmouth at the helmet? through his "mis-management" style he is limited to shouting, making up stries to his owner and covering up his mistakes and letting others suffer for them.

zest air has always been and will always be a "wanna-be airline" with the attitude of a jeepney operator and the safety record of 1-2-go in thailand.

there are rumors that they even lost their fueltank cap of an ma60 upon landing in manila? anybody knows more about that?

[Lyndon24]

Its a dodgey place

Im an Australian Pilot currently living in the Phils,..its an extremely backwards place in many aspects ,..on average there are around 70 or 80 accidents and incadents per year. About a quarter of those involve fatalitys. Last week my neighbour was supposed to be flying a charter plane which 9 people died on,..lucky he called in sick,..lower levels of training and maintenance and a laxed way of living and culture all mass in creating a environment for such occurences to thrive..

[thrust clb]

Bolero

70-80 incidents/accidents per year? A quarter of which are fatalities? Where in the world did you get these figures from? Out of your ass?

[ecureilx]

accidents / incidents

A follow on for the question from thrust clb ...

Lyndon: 70-80 accidents and incidents ? Where did you get that figure ???

And if you count incidents, even runway incursions, RTB, doors unlocking .. you could count on and on ..

The statistics below is for "WORLDWIDE" from a reputed aviation accident database, covering fatal incidents ..
Year Incidents
2006 27
2007 26
2008 32

If I believe your words, I must be scared to even step into Philippines. For a country with 7000 odd islands, air travel is the only way for most people, and comparatively, the safety has been goodt, vis-a-vis some neighboring countries, where lot of airlines have accidents like having highway accidents. I was counting an average of 1 or 2 fatal crash per month for that nearby country.

Any figure to back up your numbers ?

[jester_icarus]

Backwards

Lyndon,

dude...really???!!!! any suggestions or thesis on how to go about reversing this dilemma? i once read an article under ICAO Proposition 25 that was not passed under Article 15 in 2005 from another country that reversed their backwards state. It reciprocated their entire state of statency.

Love to hear your views on this and possibly a more specific target specific idea to resolve this issue.

Thanks....

[buskoto]

thrust clb... read again. It's not incidents he's talking about, it's "incadents." It's not fatalities he's talking about, it's "fatalitys." He's talking way above our primitive, lax-cultured heads.

Anyone who has a problem with spelling a word will have a problem figuring out the statistics behind that word.