Shenzhen Airlines

[madevi]

viet nam Airlines question

Does anybody could give me information about working in Viet nam Airlines, way of living, cost, payment, treatment at the foreigners Pilots, living there with the Family, please, send me comments, l will be waiting answers, comments and advises,
nice regards.

Cesar

[JotaJota]

Shenzhen THREAD!

viet nam Airlines question
Does anybody could give me information about working in Viet nam Airlines, way of living, cost, payment, treatment at the foreigners Pilots, living there with the Family, please, send me comments, l will be waiting answers, comments and advises,
nice regards.

Cesar

Cesar, haz un search y encontraras TODA la informacion que buscas.

Do a search and you'll find ALL the info that you are looking for.

This is the SZ thread hermano!!!

[khomekuh]

I've been flying for Shenzhen Airlines for a couple of years. The salary package is not bad but living in China is quite hard for westerns! We must have a lot of patience and good stomach!
There are some tricks in their contract. The salary is paid only after 15 days and Shenzhen Airlines has been delaying the salaries quite often. The living cost is increasing in China. They have a punishment policy sometimes unfair!
be careful !

[JotaJota]

And you are Chinese... Cool!

Interesting comments from a national!!!

Thanks for the info.

[khomekuh]

Shenzhen Airlines increases the punishment policy

This is an e-mail sent from a Shenzhen Airlines Captain to the management of Foreign Pilots Dept. on February 2012!


Dear Foreign Pilots Section
Recently I heard many comments about the new rules that affects our daily operation and please I want an official confirmation about this (I couldn't go to any of the safety meetings I was flying and now on vacations).

Rules that I understand are already in use now:

1- If you have an altitude bust, you are FIRED.
2- If you have a lighting strike, you are FIRED.
3- If you have a bird strike, you are FIRED.
4- If you have a hard landing, you are FIRED.
5- If you have a lost of communications, you are FIRED.

I don't know if there are any other new reasons to be immediately fired from the company that I should be aware?, Donald Trump will love to work for Shenzhen Airlines! (more on Donald Trump The Apprentice (U.S. TV series) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

About the previous 5 reasons to be FIRED.

1- Living in a dangerous neighborhood…

Many people in this world has to live in dangerous neighborhoods with thieves, drug dealers and killers and have to adapt to that because they don't have other options, but that doesn't means they like that or that the dangerous conditions are right….

In a normal flight in China you will do around 10 to 15 steps climbing to reach your flight level, in Japan you do 2 steps, in Taiwan you do 2 steps, in Seoul you go straight to your flight level, in Kuala Lumpur was 2 steps too…..so in China you make between 10 to 15 steps more going up, and going down than the rest of the world…. That means in each flight 20 to 30 changes in altitude, that will be 16 to 26 times more than in a normal flight in most countries in the world…and usually with the word "expedite" "Rate of descend, climb 2000 ft or more" etc….

Yes I have to adapt to risk my job 20 to 30 times per flight, in a 4 days leg day I will be risking loose my job 80 to 120 times a day in an altitude selection mistake, yes is China, I adapt, I like it? no…the person living in a dangerous neighborhood likes it??

Flying in meters, China is one of 2 countries in the world flying in meters, the other Russia will convert to feet next year making China the only country flying in the world in meters…yes we adapt, that means is right?

And of course we have the "excellent" English of the controllers….

WE are humans and we make MISTAKES which means not in purpose and mistakes will keep happening no matter how big is the punishment…

2- About the lightings.

This is the lists of the known gods of Thunder, since my name is not on the list (and I don't recognize anybody from Shenzhen Airlines in the list) I inform I don't have the power to control the weather, thunders, lightings, etc….so if I cannot avoid a storm for more than 20 miles (almost a miracle in China to get a deviation of 20 miles…) I will just turn back to my departure airport or any suitable airport in the area, of course we are going to be the safest airline in the world, in bankruptcy…

More information about the Thunder and Lighting gods in Wikipedia List of thunder gods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (maybe can be included in the GOM)

List of thunder gods

Ancient Near East
Teshub (Hurrian mythology)
Adad, Ishkur, Marduk (Babylonian-Assyrian mythology)
Hadad (Levantine mythology)
Eurasia
Tarhunt (Hittite/Luwian mythology)
Zeus (Greek Mythology)
Brontes (Greek mythology)
Jupiter, Summanus (Roman mythology)
Taranis (Pan-Celtic); Ambisagrus, Leucetios, (Gaulish mythology)
Þunraz (Germanic mythology; Anglo-Saxon Þunor, German Donar, Norse Þórr)
Thor (Norse mythology)
Perun (Slavic mythology)
Perkunas (Baltic mythology)
Perendi (Albanian mythology)
Gebeleizis (Dacian mythology)
Zibelthiurdos (Thracian mythology)
Ukko or Perkele (Finnish mythology)
Horagalles (Sami mythology)
Indra, Parjanya (Hindu mythology)
Aplu (Etruscan mythology)
Atämshkai (Moksha mythology)
East Asia
Lei Gong (Chinese mythology)
Ajisukitakahikone, Raijin (Raiden-sama, Kaminari-sama), Tenjin (kami) (Japanese mythology)
Susanoo (Japanese mythology)
Americas
Thunderbird (Native American mythology)
Xolotl (Aztec and Toltec mythology)
Chaac (Maya mythology)
Apocatequil (Incan mythology)
Cocijo (Mexican mythology)
Aktzin (Mexican mythology)
Jasso (Mexican mythology)
Haokah (Lakota mythology)
Tupã (Guaraní mythology, Brazil)
Tunupã, Thunupã (Bolivian and Peruvian mythology)
Salar (Aztec mythology)
Africa
Egyptian mythology)
Shango (Yorùbá mythology)
Oya (goddess of hurricanes, consort of Shango Yoruba mythology)
Azaka-Tonnerre (West African Vodun/Haitian Vodou)
Mulungu
Xevioso (alternately: Xewioso, Heviosso. Thunder god of the So region)
Sango (Nigerian mythology)
Oceania
Polynesian mythology
Haikili (Polynesian mythology)
Tāwhaki (Polynesian mythology)
Kaha'i (Polynesian mythology)
Te Uira (Polynesian mythology)
Micronesian mythology
Nan Sapwe (Pohnpeian mythology)
Australia
Namarrkun (Aboriginal mythology)

3- About bird strikes

I am an Airbus Captain, not Dr. Doolittle (more information about Dr. Doolittle Doctor Dolittle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) so in my resume I didn't include that I am able to communicate with birds or any other kind of animal! so if somebody reports birds in the area I will just not take off, or go around and divert to the closest airport without birds to avoid the possibility of get fired (by the way once I hit a bird at 23.000 ft…try to avoid that!).

4- About the Hard Landings

Airbus and Boeing recognizes Hard Landings only reported by the pilot and to be a hard landing must have some kind of structural damage, the company has this information requested to Boeing to save one of his Chinese Captains from loose his license, strange is the only case that I know that Boeing information (were clearly states that you cannot use the QAR to define a hard landing) was used to save one of the company pilots, this information is never used to protect a Foreign Captain (from a non existent hard landing), actually Shenzhen Airlines never had a hard landing! (or there is any record of damage due to a hard landing?).

5- About lost of communications

I understand that the periods of time to consider the communication is lost have been reduced to a very short periods of time, so again my procedures will be every 2 minutes request a radio check during all the flight, I guess if all Shenzhen Airlines flights do the same the communications will be blocked to other airplanes, makes sense?

In every flight I can loose my job around 20 to 30 times in a possible altitude mistake, 1 time per landing with a possible hard landing that doesn't really exists, the complete duration of the flight with a possible loss of communications, depending on the weather a few more times with a lighting strike, and depending on the migration patterns of the birds a few more due to a bird strike…..as you can imagine I will not be flying very relax and probably due to my high level of stress I will make many mistakes including the ones on this list and probably many others, I guess Shenzhen Airlines should be ready to have the worst period of mistakes ever due to the level of stress and fatigue the flight crews are facing now.

And of course since my possibilities to get fired are now increased in like 500% if not more I am starting to search for a new job, since I have a family and responsibilities I guess I am not the only one and Shenzhen Airlines soon will be very happy to don't have pilots at all to make mistakes, my Co Pilot told me the other day that he don't want to fly anymore….that he prefers to wash dishes than keep flying in this way….(and he is Chinese…)

Have a nice day.

[Turkpilot]

sza

This is fantastic. About time someone writes to mangement on this crap!

[Flying Tiger 74]

You believe wrong no foreign FOs in SZ Airlines except 2 in exceptional conditions...

[khadinorte]

Miguel

Hi there!
I was thinking about going for screening with them but now I will think about it.Please confirm this information if you are so kind because I won't loose my time if it is like you just wrote...

Thanks a lot

[shekou]

Sza

Guys,
If you want to come to China on the 737 then Xiamen airlines is the best deal, don't even look at Sza. However, if you insist on coming to Sza then you should talk to someone working here. I've been here for some time and can say that most of the posts here are total BS. It would be a mistake to believe everything you read on this thread.

[khomekuh]

Be smart

Hey! be smart !
Don't come to Shenzhen Airlines! The punishment policy is disgusting! There are better options in China! Much better packages! I've been working her for almost two years. I'm crazy to get out of here! Just waiting for my second year bonus!
Another senior foreign captain was fired in March! He had an altitude overshooting with the clear participation of the ATC controller!
Another foreign capt was punished for delaying 15 seconds to arrive in the company (yep fifteen) believe or not!
And so on and so on....hypocrisy. Liars!

[Shekou2]

KOMKU!!

The salary is paid only after 15 days and Shenzhen Airlines has been delaying the salaries quite often.

In the last few years, my salary got late ONCE by 1day.Apologise by the company.!it was due to the bank of china.
Since then it has been paid on the 14th....eventhough the contract states pay day is 15th.
All airlines i worked for before pay on the 15th of next month.,how about your previous airlines?

If you have a personal agenda against the airline...dont involve stating erroneous info as it will mislead pilots in their decision.

Feedback from Mr. Wu Kewei, the vice president of Shenzhen Airlines

Dear all captains:

Recently, I received two emails written by 2 foreign captains in which they concern about different view of points of management issues including the WX radar training on safety meeting, improper “risk bulletin” issued constantly, company’s analysis about the safety status with the foreign captains’ crew and the risk of being a future flight instructor. I would like to show my opinion as below.

As you know, do in Rome as a Romans do is the basic fact in culture communication, and even for the Chinese pilots. They all need to try their best to acclimatize themselves to the CAAC controlled operation environment. The safety culture in Shenzhen Airlines is only the reflection of CAAC safety culture, and our company can never disobey the CAAC requirements to satisfy the request from part of our pilots no matter that they are Chinese pilots or foreign pilots. We will never permit our safety criteria going below CAAC’s relevant criteria otherwise Shenzhen airlines will receive lots of extra limitations for daily flight operation. What we can guarantee is that all of the safety management criteria are consistent and fair for both the Chinese pilots and foreign pilots.

Season Change Training is to meet the requirement of CAAC. It is a kind of study, at the same time it is a kind of review. At the turn of seasons, we organize such training in order to offer a platform for pilots to exchange experience and improve your flight skills. It is essentially a good chance why don’t you complain it as useless and unnecessary thing. As my personal opinion, I do not think anybody has full understanding of knowledge for everything on flight. There is a Chinese saying, The Earth is limited, and the knowledge is infinite. It's especially true right now on flight.

Investigation and providing suggestions on risk resources of aviation unsafe events happened involving our company or other companies is the core of SMS management. SMS is a global and international system and it is not created by CAAC. So, we’d better have a proper recognition of risk bulletin and suggestions. We should regard them as one part of safety management. They are information sometimes as well as operation guide. You do not need to worry anything if you do things as the manual says. Of course if the bulletin is not edited in a proper way, we should make it better by improving our working effort.

For the error or deviation happened during flight, we are changing our philosophy or idea that we will make actively a differential treatment for different events. We are considering giving light penalty to the ones whose error is relatively minor or they may be exempted from penalty under the CAAC penalty standards. It is not as terrible as our foreign pilots' description to be an instructor.

In 2011, we learned one fact that unsafe events rate of foreign captains is obviously higher than the rate of Chinese captains. Objectively speaking, operation environment and other factors are some parts of reasons at the same time I wish all of our captains can think about the following doubts:

1: Are there any subjective reasons?

2: Are there some ways that we can do to make the flight safety better?

3: For any unsafe events caused by the objective reason, does anybody need to take the responsibility?

4: Is there anything that we can do to change the situation?

4: What is your solution about handling these events?

5: If you were the boss, what would be your intention?

6: If the same rate (rate of unsafe events between local crew and over sea crew) is detected in other country, what will happen?

Training or teaching after events happened is a good way to prevent it happening again. When we knew it, we will do it. Using administration measurements is only to raise your awareness of unsafe events. It is a kind of method not our aim at all. As long as you strengthen the awareness, you will not lay your finger on red line of human factor error.

I heartily welcome all of you joining in Shenzhen Airlines and your participation on safety operation is what I want to see and what our company needs. I hope we show understanding to each other and we work together happily.* *


--
Have a good day!
Best Regards!
Yours,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Foreign Pilot Subsection
Flight Department
Shenzhen*Airlines
China

[AirbusHeathen]

Latest Message from the "Brain Trust" at SZA

Subject: SZA Captain’s Safety Responsibility Agreement
Dear Captains,

To promote professionalism and sense of responsibility, to maintain safety awareness and solid regulation concept, CAAC requires all captains should sign Captain’s Safety Responsibility Agreement. Please come to our office to sign it. Different opinions are welcomed.

Regards,

Daisy

SZA Captain’s Safety Assurance Responsibility Agreement

Here, I _________________________________ as Boeing/Airbus Captain, sincerely declare that as a Shenzhen Airlines captain, I will follow GOM chapter 3.3.1 “Captain’s Duty and Responsibility” strictly and try my best to guarantee flight safety. At the same time, I will highly maintain my professionalism, closely keep high responsibility and strong safety awareness, strictly follow company regulation and discipline, and continuously improve my flight skills.

Meanwhile, I will accept penalty provision cause by my own human error on aviation safety, flight scheduling and administration according to issued manuals of Shenzhen Airlines.

Sincerely yours,

Responsible Manager Signature:
Date:

--
Have a pleasant day!
Best Regards!
Yours,

Foreign Pilot Subsection
Flight Department
Shenzhen Airlines
China

[V4Zombie]

AVOID AVOID AVOID, as long as you have other options!

What you read in previous posts are basically true and they are just the tip of the iceberg. 16 hrs duty days (14+2) and you are expected to go beyond (Chinese crew regularly do so), weird procedures, punishment policy and the total ignorance and disrespect of their foreign captains. Things getting worse since Air China has taken over the majority share. Lot of guys leaving this year.
The city is liveable, the package is good, but there are plenty of better options in China now.

[chinapilot223]

Are they really enforcing a punishment program contrary to ICAO standards? Is QAR still being used against pilots contrary to ICAO standards? Do FO's fly the airplane based on QAR data that they know to be analyzed?

Does Shenzhen Airlines still misinterpret QAR data as being pilot error? Totally disregarding mitigating circumstances?

Are the FO's still hand flying the airplane when you, as Captain, are flying?

Do Foreign Captains still rank below Chinese FO's? (Chinese FO's disregard you, as Captain, until they verify your actions with management)

Been there done that, got the license to prove it.

[mignolo]

info from inside

Hi, I am looking for info coming directly from expat captains currently working in SZA.
Will appreciate any feedback or PM

[joethechinesepilot]

dude
have u read these posts at all.......at least 30 chinese captains have resigned this year...they'd rather sit at home for two years and work somewhere else...but it is different for everybody....some ex pats are leaving when their contract is up...but for reasons known to them.....you might as well come to a screening..what have you to lose and get you a foot massage and a happy ending...
cheers mate

[mignolo]

I will strictly follow your advice

[scankey]

Flight International had an article about the airline in 6-12 November issue.

[Oceanic815Pilot]

Mignolo,

I left SZA IN August after almost four years. Your mileage may vary depending on expectations. PM me if you'd like one persons opinion. Personally, I'm glad to not be working there but I miss parts of living in China.

[USMCProbe]

Before I left at the end of my contract, I tried to get a no accident letter and a no criminal record letter. The airline I worked for was based in PEK. I was based in a different city/province. I applied to the PSB (Public Security Bureau) in my province. They told me my company is in PEK, and my work visa was issued in PEK. I have to do it in PEK. I tried at the PSB in PEK, they said I cannot get one as I don't live in PEK. So no No Criminal Record Letter.

I asked my company about getting the CAAC to make a no Accident letter. They said "sorry we don't do that".

If you are a career contract pilot, working in China might make it difficult to get another contract job.