Vietnam Airlines (info please)
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by EagleA25
I might not quite get the part about the concept; in the Sim, manual flying, yes, Airplane, no; so if the A/T is inop, I should fly myself all day, or better, just reject the plane? I mean, worst thing in Sim I could bump my head, right? In real life... my job?
So, if we are at the whole “need everything” concept, why are we flying into Tuy Hoa without Papi, approach or Runway lighting?
And since we are on following SOP’s “strictly”, very few follow Flaps 3, idle reverse and packs off T/O’s... I know because I keep getting weired looks on my FO’s faces when I do it, just like when I do one-Engine Taxi-in and -out... any comments on that?
So, if we are at the whole “need everything” concept, why are we flying into Tuy Hoa without Papi, approach or Runway lighting?
And since we are on following SOP’s “strictly”, very few follow Flaps 3, idle reverse and packs off T/O’s... I know because I keep getting weired looks on my FO’s faces when I do it, just like when I do one-Engine Taxi-in and -out... any comments on that?
ATHR is recommended for all phases of flight. FCOM. No airline specific sop allowing captains to take it out to practice an abnormal situation. It was under training flight, but this was not a training flight. And its not now sadly. To me practicing an FCOM ABNORMAL in the real aircraft just doesn't make any sense. Anyway as a Captain you should be able to operate without ATHr as you should have the experience and ability. With FD and AP how hard can it be????
ATHR INOP is permitted under MEL. But NO AP, NO FD, NO ATHR would come under multiple associated MEL entries and would be a no dispatch condition. And i wouldn't be too keen to fly ATH INOP for more than 1 sector to recover to main base, and would then ask for another aircraft. Flying with it all off by choice is not permitted under FCOM, and is putting the aircraft in a NO DISPATCH condition. Do so and prang it? As the Captain you will be held accountable for sure. Anywhere in the world. Sorry but thats the case here.
As i said, there is a proper approved procedure in the LPC/OPC requirements to practice this condition. Under supervised and recorded conditions. There is a section on day1 for extra training at the discretion of the instructor. You should ask for extra training if you want some. It will be noted on the form and some other items will be marked as not flown due extra training given. On check day you will need to perform to required limits, or a resit or extra training will be noted.
There is no requirement to practice in the real aircraft.
I have never had anybody ask me for a some practice athr/fd off in the sim. Why not? Its easy to do and the best place to do it.
Last edited by ia1166; 17th Apr 2018 at 10:31.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by EagleA25
What aa means it that you should start looking for greener pastures and take VNA as your last resort, if it is the last you have.
I agree with him, it is NOT a safe place to fly, and you need to have either a good lawyer or a thick skin here. And if you have thoughts about making this a career, it’s not a place to stay!
I hear somewhere they will change Fleet Managers (again); so everything will be happy-happy again, right?
The definition of insanity comes to mind...
I kinda feel for Cap. Son here; he’s good hearted but they put him in a crap position.
If you accept Instructor here, you WILL have political pressure to pass the sons of the management pilots, no matter how incompetent they are!
I agree with him, it is NOT a safe place to fly, and you need to have either a good lawyer or a thick skin here. And if you have thoughts about making this a career, it’s not a place to stay!
I hear somewhere they will change Fleet Managers (again); so everything will be happy-happy again, right?
The definition of insanity comes to mind...
I kinda feel for Cap. Son here; he’s good hearted but they put him in a crap position.
If you accept Instructor here, you WILL have political pressure to pass the sons of the management pilots, no matter how incompetent they are!
If i fail people, which i do, it has never been questioned.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: london
Posts: 52
I have to agree with all you said 1186. But I suspect it's all sorted by rostering before you get the candidate.
They roster the right TRE.......
Or if one of the favored one's find you on their training roster they "suddenly" go sick?
They roster the right TRE.......
Or if one of the favored one's find you on their training roster they "suddenly" go sick?
Last edited by bigbird; 14th Apr 2018 at 09:17.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Reup
Posts: 121
No auto thrust against FCOM? Hey dude, you
Must be smoking. I changed a couple of outfits in Europe recently and they all fly autopilot off / auto trust off...every single flight. Appropriate use of automations means...appropriate.
Must be smoking. I changed a couple of outfits in Europe recently and they all fly autopilot off / auto trust off...every single flight. Appropriate use of automations means...appropriate.
Originally Posted by ia1166
Sure. flaps 3 pax off single engine taxi. All allowed under FCOM. All in VN airline specific sops. All at Captains discretion. Reverse use is covered under SOP. All at captains discretion. Personally i try not to do any of them unless there really is good reason for it. Life is hard enough when flying with cadets.
ATHR is recommended for all phases of flight. FCOM. No airline specific sop allowing captains to take it out to practice an abnormal situation. It was under training flight, but this was not a training flight. And its not now sadly. Not that i do it anyway. EVER. To me practicing an FCOM ABNORMAL in the real aircraft just doesn't make any sense. Anyway as a Captain you should be able to operate without ATHr as you should have the experience and ability. With FD and AP how hard can it be????
ATHR INOP is permitted under MEL. But NO AP, NO FD, NO ATHR would come under multiple associated MEL entries and would be a no dispatch condition. And i wouldn't be too keen to fly ATH INOP for more than 1 sector to recover to main base, and would then ask for another aircraft. Flying with it all off by choice is not permitted under FCOM, and is putting the aircraft in a NO DISPATCH condition. Do so and prang it? As the Captain you will be held accountable for sure. Anywhere in the world. Sorry but thats the case here.
As i said, there is a proper approved procedure in the LPC/OPC requirements to practice this condition. Under supervised and recorded conditions. There is a section on day1 for extra training at the discretion of the instructor. You should ask for extra training if you want some. It will be noted on the form and some other items will be marked as not flown due extra training given. On check day you will need to perform to required limits, or a resit or extra training will be noted.
There is no requirement to practice in the real aircraft.
I have never had anybody ask me for a some practice athr/fd off in the sim. Why not? Its easy to do and the best place to do it.
ATHR is recommended for all phases of flight. FCOM. No airline specific sop allowing captains to take it out to practice an abnormal situation. It was under training flight, but this was not a training flight. And its not now sadly. Not that i do it anyway. EVER. To me practicing an FCOM ABNORMAL in the real aircraft just doesn't make any sense. Anyway as a Captain you should be able to operate without ATHr as you should have the experience and ability. With FD and AP how hard can it be????
ATHR INOP is permitted under MEL. But NO AP, NO FD, NO ATHR would come under multiple associated MEL entries and would be a no dispatch condition. And i wouldn't be too keen to fly ATH INOP for more than 1 sector to recover to main base, and would then ask for another aircraft. Flying with it all off by choice is not permitted under FCOM, and is putting the aircraft in a NO DISPATCH condition. Do so and prang it? As the Captain you will be held accountable for sure. Anywhere in the world. Sorry but thats the case here.
As i said, there is a proper approved procedure in the LPC/OPC requirements to practice this condition. Under supervised and recorded conditions. There is a section on day1 for extra training at the discretion of the instructor. You should ask for extra training if you want some. It will be noted on the form and some other items will be marked as not flown due extra training given. On check day you will need to perform to required limits, or a resit or extra training will be noted.
There is no requirement to practice in the real aircraft.
I have never had anybody ask me for a some practice athr/fd off in the sim. Why not? Its easy to do and the best place to do it.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 36N 33E
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by Arewerunning
No auto thrust against FCOM? Hey dude, you
Must be smoking. I changed a couple of outfits in Europe recently and they all fly autopilot off / auto trust off...every single flight. Appropriate use of automations means...appropriate.
Must be smoking. I changed a couple of outfits in Europe recently and they all fly autopilot off / auto trust off...every single flight. Appropriate use of automations means...appropriate.
So yeah; I’m also calling Bullshit 🤣
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 36N 33E
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by ia1166
...
I have never had anybody ask me for a some practice athr/fd off in the sim. Why not? Its easy to do and the best place to do it.
I have never had anybody ask me for a some practice athr/fd off in the sim. Why not? Its easy to do and the best place to do it.
then, at the same time, MY most uncomfortable check-rides we’re all with locals... they just make sure you know from the get-go that they have authority... sad, wired culture... 🤦🏼*♂️
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Eagles Nest
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by EagleA25
I remember reading LH and German wings have as SOP at 1000 ft the ATHR going off, always...
So yeah; I’m also calling Bullshit ��
So yeah; I’m also calling Bullshit ��
I also understand, that at least United if not more US airlines follow the rule "autopilot off, ATHR off".
If one does not posses the basic skill of landing an airplane without auto thrust, than this person should consider another profession.
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: SE Asian Jungle
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by ia1166
...
There is no requirement to practice in the real aircraft.
...
.
Let’s just recall Asiana 214: can’t even do a VISUAL approach, let alone handfly... mixed with inadequate pride and cultural respect!
ia, all arguments I read from you are excuses for the laziness and inadecuacy to do your job properly; or is it simple fear to speak up? Has pleasing management become so much more important? In any form, you have become mediocre; and at least admit it to yourself!
The box will not solve critical thinking problems, it’s the attitude to being able to think outside said box, that will. But sure, keep up the good work; the definition of insanity is doing the same and expecting different results; and the frequency of severe events is increasing! And as Na Instructor, YOU are part of the system.
If this was SO bad, and the FO was properly trained, why was no go-around initiates by the FO? You see, any FO should be able to replace a Captain if nesesary and even though does not have the experience, should at least have the skills to; we OWE that much to our customers! But in this airline, the skill level on the line deteriorates and hand-flying is almost seen as a crime... thanks to laziness being the motivator!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 16
Ia1166, what you say is scary and so wrong. I really hope you are trolling. You can’t be serious. You know you might have to fly in direct law in the real aircraft right? Happened in 2016 in my company.
Never praticsing raw data flights in the real aircraft is a recipe for disaster.
The fact you are saying you won’t accept to fly more than one sector with A/THR inop says it all. Surely it’s not ideal but would not be a problem if you were doing it in a regular basic. Noone can claim to be able to fly accurately an aircraft raw data by just training in the sim. Period.
Never praticsing raw data flights in the real aircraft is a recipe for disaster.
The fact you are saying you won’t accept to fly more than one sector with A/THR inop says it all. Surely it’s not ideal but would not be a problem if you were doing it in a regular basic. Noone can claim to be able to fly accurately an aircraft raw data by just training in the sim. Period.
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: not sure
Posts: 12
It may be SOP to use full automation whenever possible. Doesn’t mean you can’t have a practice at raw data every now and then. Just don’t F*CK it up when you do otherwise be prepared for BOTH crew to be called in because BOTH failed in their primary duties. Previous posts indicated unfair treatment to the Captain but at the end of the day he/she allowed the inexperienced FO to fly raw data and failed to correct when that FO went outside parameters. You are having a go at management for doing their jobs?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 36N 33E
Posts: 116
Ups, we did it again...
Well, it’s all over the News Channels... how the f**k did we manage this? Wrong Runway landing... great job!
Oh, please, explain how our superior training at VNA should have avoided this, because a Vice Minister of the Red Patty was on board... let’s see how we didn’t
follow SOP’s strictly this time...
Oh, please, explain how our superior training at VNA should have avoided this, because a Vice Minister of the Red Patty was on board... let’s see how we didn’t
follow SOP’s strictly this time...
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Moscow
Posts: 16
It was all written
in less tha 1 year sice almost all expat FO some of the ready for upgrade where gently sent home:
2 runway excursion
1 tail strike
1 landing on a close/underconstruction work
(stradars of black listed company)
is that a coincidence?
maybe
think about that
2 runway excursion
1 tail strike
1 landing on a close/underconstruction work
(stradars of black listed company)
is that a coincidence?
maybe
think about that
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by EagleA25
Anyone got their standard “follow Standard Operations Procedures strictly” email already...?
hahahahah
hahahahah
The captain is responsible at all times.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Eagles Nest
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by ia1166
follow the sop and brief in accordance. Its a standard arrival brief, including the 10-9. A proper arrival brief would have picked it up.
The captain is responsible at all times.
Four serious incidents in less than one year (and more that we do not know about ?) can hardly be blamed on not simply following SOP, even though for sure some SOP breach was present at every incident. How about judgement ? Does your SOP have an answer for every unpredictable situation we as professional pilots are trained to deal with ?
It's easy to get on the "follow SOP" blame game, but I think it's time for your company and senior instructors like yourself to stand up and demand a "root cause" study.
Was lack of proper training leading to incidents, lack of proper judgment, lack of support (CRM ?) fatigue, stress or other human factors. A man with your experience knows for sure than one factor does not lead to an incident or accident. The scenarios usually build up by several factors amounting to one bad result.
Just my two cents.
Last edited by wingdeagle; 3rd May 2018 at 00:26.
